OK let's be clear on this fact. Josh's dad Steve, MY NEIGHBOR, took photos of children in their homes and on the playground etc. It could have been my daughter in his files. Porn? Not a crime. Photos of children taken without permission? CRIME. If he gets out, he will not be welcome back in this neighborhood. I'll send him to yours.

In addition, there are two courts. One is the legal one, where not enough stuff was air tight for the law to prosecute cleanly. However, I would NEVER have allowed my kids to be babysat by this guy. He grew up in this area and there is more to the story besides JUST the fact that he took his kids camping in sub zero temps in the middle of the night for a few hours (good idea parents? Sure.) - he left town almost immediately after Susan went missing (I sure hope my husband wouldn't do that to me) and the website he put up to "help find Susan" included several complaints he had about his wife about how she spent a lot of money on her hobby which was cutting hair. Really? Personality disorder bled from the webpage. This does not make him a killer, but so many problems beyond this suggest that this guy was a mess, and the "SYSTEM" was not the largest factor at play in this explosion. HE WAS. I blame him entirely. It's time Americans stop blaming problems on everything else but the source.

Woops that didn't make sense - there are two courts. The legal one, and then there's the common sense court of public opinion. One sends folks to jail. The other one allows me to make judgment calls on a daily basis - hey kids, you can't hang out at bobby's house because his mother just had a kegger for her 16 year old's birthday party. Common sense allows us to look at a situation and say, something just "isn't right". There was a "whole lot" of that in this case.

Well Amy I am sorry this is your neighbor. But the father is not Josh. BTW I read the filing on the case and there are 14 counts. They involve 2 children. Each count is for a different picture such as in the tub, getting out of the tub, drying oneself,etc. If Steve took those pictures is absolutely a creep and deserves what ever he gets.

I never defended Grandpa. I wondered who tipped off the police to look in the first place.

This thread was about Josh taking the lives of himself and his children.

But my post was about what the system can do to a suspect whether other not they did it. I have also read,but cannot confirm that here is a history of mental illness in his family. That still doesn't make him a wife murderer.

There is plenty of evidence that Josh Powell is guilty of murdering his children. But there is zero evidence that he murdered his wife. There is zero evidence that he was a bad father. There is zero evidence that he was involved with his father's alleged "hobbies". I say alleged because apparently thee were a lot of people living with him. Again that is only what I read. Can't say if it's fact.

Amyfiddler since you are his neighbor maybe you could clear up the things about the mentally ill son and other people in the household?

People crack. Some do it in different way. He cracked. I believe although I do not KNOW that the system had a lot to do with putting him over the edge. Sometimes people who go psycho like that truly believe that their children are better off dead. They are nuts. It is what it is. But unless you have walked in those shoes I don't think people should be casting stones.

He's dead. Two children are dead. Nobody wins.

It a very sad story all around. But unless Susan's body is found or she comes comes strolling out of the woodwork we will probably never know.

If Josh's dad was taking creepy pics of kids, I don't care who reported him.

Has anyone else heard that the children were beginning to recount the events of the night they went "camping"? Somewhere (Today Show?) I heard that one of the children said that all of them went camping and that Mommy was in the trunk.

Wildchild - from the news story:

"...As part of the investigation into Cox-Powell's disappearance, Utah authorities searched the Washington house where Powell, his two sons and his father, Steven Powell, were living last year.

During the search, investigators "discovered numerous images and recordings of adult and juvenile females," according to a statement released by the Pierce County sheriff's department....".

It doesn't sound to me that someone tipped off anyone to look for kiddie porn. Sounds like they were searching the home for info about Susan.

Yep Barbara, I heard the same thing. The children were starting to talk about the night their mother disappeared. I heard that one of the little boys said that then night he took them "camping", that mommy was in the trunk of the car.

That's why he killed himself and his children, IMO. Truth was getting closer to coming out.

A GOOD father doesn't kill his children. Just my opinion.

Suzieque - Why did it take them over a year and a half before searching the house? You would think that if they were looking for evidence related to the disappearance it would have been done long before? Josh moved into his father's house in Jan. of 2010. They searched the house on Aug.25 2011.

Some coincidence that that happened to be just 5 days after a public argument with the inlaws.

Mimiboo - The children are suddenly "remembering" under the influence of a "therapists" chosen and paid for by the in-laws. Ever hear of the McMartin preschool case? It was shown then how professionals have a knack for suggestively leading children to say things and actually start believing
them to be true. Interviewing techniques plant the seed in the child's mind and from there is is quite easy to grow. Actually false memories have successfully been planted in adults who are susceptible to such things. Hence the recovered memories of sexual abuse scams that were so destructive to families.

Poor, poor kids. Their lives were terrible. I hope it was quick for them. But not for him.

This story sickens me to no end. I could care less what he does to himself but to murder his own children....disgusting. I feel so bad for Susans parents. Left with nothing....

I don't buy it, Wildchild. This is the "society made me do it" mentality which is so prevalent among people today. Nobody is willing to take responsibility for their own actions, so it has to be somebody else's fault. Poor Josh was driven to murder his children due to the stress of being investigated by bad, mean men. And the children were coerced into saying Mommy was in the trunk by the evil therapists, planting false memories. That's a load of feces. What he did was pre-meditated to inflict the most possible pain on the grandparents. Shame on you for your excuses.

Regardless who did or not what, it is and will be hard on all. Relatives, neighbors, friends and even schoolmates and people that worked with them. We do NOT know why God allows things to happen and many times it is very difficult to deal with this.
Just a thought, No comments about the case, I do remember the McMartin case in CA many years ago. That was really sad and disturbing and people are still affected to this day.

Wild - you lost me when you defended grandpa's "lonely single porn." You know not of what you speak.

Blame it on the system? Nope. Blame Josh. Then blame Steve, and them blame his father before him, and his father before him.

If the system had done nothing, no child porn would have been discovered in the home, and Josh would be living in that house with two kids, with a pedophile. My daughter would be at higher risk. The system is flawed, but it did its job. Not everyone under pressure kills themselves and their children.

So now we know how Josh handles stress. He kills people. Interesting.

Imagine those little boys running into the house, excited to see Daddy, only to be murdered by him.

There is a whole lot of sickness going on here. I do, of course, believe he murdered his wife.

Lest there be any doubt that this man was an angry SOB, check out the autopsy report.

This man was retaliating against his children. His children! This is not the work of a system. This is the work of a deranged antipersonality disordered narcissistic puke. Those kids knew what happened, started feeling safe in the environment they were in, started to process it, and he was mad.

Don't tell me not to be mad right now.

Well the responses don't surprise. Some minds are snapped tightly shut.

I never said it was society to blame. I said it was the system that paved the road to this tragedy. When the government has no case ,they will often use children to force parents into a corner. There is always collateral damage to the families and the children. This time it was a father going completely off his rocker and murdering them. I am NOT condoning him I am offering a possible and likely scenario of what led to this. But people would rather fester in their hate and judgement than reason and try to seek change,

As for the autopsy I have not been able find a report. Only a news blurb. But again I see the neck marks as evidence that he did not want his children to suffer and in his delusional state tried to knock them out or kill them before the fire in what HE, not what a rational thinking person would do thought would be more humane.

This guy loved his kids. Parents who don't care about their kids leave them behind. He took them with him. Again in HIS mind, not a rational person's mind.

BTW I didn't know blue minivans had trunks. Interesting. But lets not sweat the details. Right? The guy is guilty after all. The grandparents are saints. Mustn't let little details get in the way of the conclusion we seek.

Grandpa wasn't charged with porn. He was charged with voyeurism. I never defended him in any of my posts. I said it was an excuse to get at Josh. Had nothing to do with the children's safety. As far as we know grandpa was not into little boys nor was he accused molestation.

This is my last post. I have said all I could on the matter. I am not going to get into he said/she said discussions.

Facts are something I would be interested in. Nancy Grace and media hype I am not.

I'm glad the world has bleeding hearts. Balance is good.

In addition Wildchild, I think it is pretty inconsiderate to pinch one off and leave the room. One of my pet peeves - "I'm gonna say my peace and then let you know that I'm not coming back." It just wreaks of "my words are more important than yours."

Please keep in mind that lecturing from you IS falling on dead ears tonight. Those children went to church with my kids and to school with my kids. I'm angry at Josh, you bet. I also believe he and his father were, are, hurtful people. He planned that murder with an axe. You will never find a psychoanalyst or PhD on the planet who will make way for that to be anything but an angry violent act. I'm disgusted with him and if that makes me wrong I don't feel like being right tonight. Talk to me next week about it when I've calmed down and when the media leaves my street.

This is not to defend Wildchild but I have snippets of articles from at least 20 years ago of just the sortof things she was sying and quoting
"The children are suddenly "remembering" under the influence of a "therapists" chosen and paid for by the in-laws. Ever hear of the McMartin preschool case? It was shown then how professionals have a knack for suggestively leading children to say things and actually start believing
them to be true. Interviewing techniques plant the seed in the child's mind and from there is is quite easy to grow. Actually false memories have successfully been planted in adults who are susceptible to such things. Hence the recovered memories of sexual abuse scams that were so destructive to families."
I think we should all agree to disagree without calling each other names there are polite ways of discussing things
I despise this man and what he did .

Amy I have not left the room. I have quit beating a dead horse. If you have facts to share instead of conjecture I will be happy to respond. I have just decided not to let this become a battle. I have my opinion and I stand by it.

Unlike for some people, internet browbeating does not work on me.

People who refuse to really read and try to understand things annoy me somewhat but it's really water off my back.

So when there is real news and if ever actual facts come out I will be posting if I have something to post.

Until then I said I was ending because I am not going to discuss an issue with someone who can only talk about how evil someone was without looking at the whole story. That's not discussion ,that's opinion. I gave mone and you gave yours. What's left?

Pinch one off eh? Funny.

Yeah, I love that one too LOL.

He loved those children, Wildchild? I'm glad my parents didn't love me that way. My idea of loving my children is that I would die for them, I would take a bullet for them, I would step in front of a speeding car for them. Not that I would hack them up with a hatchet before I blasted them to smithereens. But of course you knew we would react like this, because we are a bunch of conservative hens gathered round the proverbial kitchen table, where all the gossip and exaggerations fly freely. I only wish I could be as enlightened as you.

I know that the system/society is broken, but what Josh Powell did was beyond the pale of evilness. Any sane person could not be driven to do what he did. I know that if I were in that position, I would fight until the end to prove that I were innocent. But he wasn't innocent,

Even if I were blamed for a murder I didn't do, I WOULD NOT KILL my innocent children. I would rot in jail, die by injection before the thought of killing my children would cross my mind. The system didn't kill those boys, Josh did. In seeing what happened, there is no reason good enough for me. If anything were to be analyzed it would have to be the way the media gets to spew out anything nilly willy. The word vomit the so called journalists put out is much worse to society and the working of our criminal system. Camping out in front of residences should be outlawed IMO.

Also, If Joshs dad had anything to do with the first murder and Josh knew, why would he be living with the guy? I'd like to know but never will. Then again, nothing could make it justifiable.

Why would josh live with his father - a man who was clear that he had the hots for his DIL and who wished he'd "gone further" with her?

Why would Josh create a website to help "find Susan", and yet on that same website, denigrate her character by saying that she was wasting money on her haircutting hobby? (That statement was oozing of passive aggression. it was alarming to me.)

As for therapists planting ideas - it is commonly known that 20 years ago the idea of false memories was a huge issue. When I went to school 15 years ago we were very well trained as to how tregic and unethical certain styles of interview are. Most therapists worth their weight are well trained, well regulated by the state, and know not to be so stupid. Especially in a high profile case such as this. I am sure glad the grandparents were responsible enough to see that the kids were getting professional care.

Why is it always The System's fault? The Govnm't made him do it? They made him do it?

This society has lived within The System for years, and while we all acknowledge that it isn't perfect, I don't see a whole lot of parents trying to decapitate their children before blowing them up.

This was a premeditated, deliberate choice. At the end of the day - The System, The Government, They - did not do this. Josh did.

I absolutely can't understand killing your own child,no matter how depressed or angry or whatever. I feel bad for the Social Worker, the last person to see those children alive.

And for the firemen, who knew there were young children inside they couldn't save....

Regardless of his mental state of mind, bottom line is he murdered his children. Murdered his children.
There's a special place in He!l for Josh Powell.

I just read an updated article after the autopsy was done on the children, it is much worse, they found chop - hack evidence on both boys around the neck area, and a hatchet was found beside their bodies.
I shudder just imagining what those poor babies last moments were like at the hands of their evil despicable father.

POS should rot in hell.

So very sad...........

It is possible to beat a dead horse from different sides. Some of the conversations in this post remind me of my sisters attitude to the police and the system. She hates them and with good cause. It is the police who has repeatedly arrested her daughter. Busted her for prostitution, drugs, public intoxication and disorderly conduct. She hates the police because it is their fault Jenny was arrested, it was the systems fault that she has spent time behind bars. I just wonder why our poster is so adamant about this sad and horrific situation about the father killing his little boys...is the fault of the system.

I'm comforted to know that the majority of people responding here feel strongly about personal responsibilty.

Well, somebody always has to stir the pot and make sure we all know how grossly misinformed and small minded we are. Sorry to be so snide, I just can't help myself. Society made me do it..

Lets be clear about this. This isn't about "winning" a popularity vote.

Wildchild and I have disagreed on many things, but I for one would be sorry to see her run off because she doesn't "conform".

Most people see things from their personal perspective and not one of us shares the experiences of any other. Her opinion is as important as the rest of us. We may not see eye to eye, but I value what she has to say and what she has to contribute.

The less this board values and respects differing opinions, the less this board becomes interactive.

And we'll all be the more boring for it.

Unless of course consensus and conformity are the goals here. Then we're good to go.

Let us discuss peanut butter.

wild is resilient as am i. no one is going to be run off. i like her opinionated personality. we simply are seeing this situation differently and we both feel strongly. we shared a chuckle...we will be fine.
women are often very uncomfortable with conflict and prefer to discuss sandwich spread....but im ok with it and most likely will agree with wild on another topic tomorrow.

Has anyone given thought that perhaps the mother got away via an escape network and is living in hiding, perhaps under an assumed name, never thinking that Josh would harm the kids, or that her parents would be buffers? Just a thought.......

Okay, I know this will be somewhat inflamatory, but after readding all of the various posts and responses, I think part of this issue is that many are missing the point to Wildchilds statements. I may be way off, but what I gleaned from her posts is not trying to excuse or truly pass blame in the situation, but to make an attempt, however small, to view the events from the perpetrators point of view. No one feels that the choices he made and the actions he took were appropriate in any way. But I do see what she is saying and it is a point that can be argued all day long from either side. The man's thought process and stress response were clearly waaaaaay off, but in his mind, he was right and that, frankly, is sad. There are many, many horrible people out there, deadbeat dads, crackhead moms and what have you... but I have seen the pain, frustration and anger in the eyes of good fathers who have been screwed by the system. A system whose laws have made divorce a criminal act that you will pay for like it or not. Do you think judges set aside 20% to 40% of their income for each of their children? doubtful. The statistics on men who murder their own children are horrifying. I feel that wildchild is not asking us to accept, condone or forgive Josh Powell for what he did, but to take a step back and get a good look at what changes need to be made so that system is sensitive to the needs of the family as a whole and what is truly in the best interest of the children, not pride and money. It is surely possible this was a final crazed act of a deranged lunatic but it is just as possible that he was in fact driven to the brink by the hopelessness of the situation.

From my standpoint, Josh was just a selfish, irrational human father. I imagine that he murdered his wife and he couldn't take the pressure. He was going to take his kids with him. The reasons could be many. To take his kids at all tells me volumes about his mind. To blame everyone else is entirely a cope out. Even if he didn't love his wife, well it's done, to kill his own children is the ultimate in hate. I would be run over by a train for my children. He didn't have the balls.

Eema, I hear you. Good for you too for wading through the emotions to look for Wild's point.

I still disagree with it, in this case.

The harsh reality is this. A very small percentage of our population has a psychological impairment referred to as Antisocial Personality Disorder. Now, I don't know if Josh had that, but the truth is, that with that many people walking the earth who have not an ounce of caring for other humans, the likelihood of attrocious acts occurring is very high. Not common, but it's gonna happen. And it will happen whether we spend every tax cent on social programs or not. These people do NOT care, about me, or you, or babies, or missing mothers, or anything. For "normal" humans like you and I, it is difficult to fathom this. So we think that if we control situations with rules, and regulations, that we can avoid these awful things.

Reality, we cannot. He killed those kids, and the case worker could not have done a thing, nor could have police, or anyone else. I'm grateful they did not have to meet in a public place, because I am quite convinced that he was going to die and take those kids with him regardless of the situation. And when you have a missing wife, and you make as many ridiculous decisions as he did, you are going to have a lot of people hating on you. It just is the nature of humans. If he hadn't killed her, I'm fairly certain he wouldn't have needed to do all the stupid stuff he did. I'm not worried that an innocent man took his life that day. I'm not feeling too guilty that I, or society, or the system forced him to do something horrible. He's part of that 1% that we have to consider humanity's handicap.

I think it is much easier for most people to convince themselves that someone who ended up doing something horrific like Josh did was a monster from the very beginning. As long as people can carry that belief they don't have to carry the fear that someone close to them or around them could be driven to snap. It's much more comfortable to say he was crazy from the start than to say he was driven insane by outside forces. It's a self comfort thing. A coping mechanism.

We all do it for all sorts of tragic situations. Always look for a reason it couldn't happen to us.

Wildchild you would make an excellent juror. I am very impressed with your deep analysis of the father. You are very smart and not thrown off by comments like I don't know how a father can do that etc. and stayed hard to your point. And whether he had a personality disorder or was pushed to killing his kids (forget about the wife for now) - you did an excellent portryal of the steps into his possible dive into the worst he could be because he could take no more. Good reading for me.

But what made him snap when he killed his sister's hamster and then thought it was funny? And when he frightened his mother with a butcher knife? He did these things as a teen. He didn't just develop problems in the last few years because of pressure from the media.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Josh was a damaged person; whether he was born that way or whether he became damaged somehow as a young person, I don't know; but it happened long before the media picked up on his wife's disappearance.

Yep wild, you are correct - diagnoses are not hung on one event.

Exactly Susan..He slaughtered his sisters hamster. Any kid who does this could grow up to be a serial killer or at best a deranged human being. Almost all the monsters started out killing and torturing animals for fun.

I'm really (plural) confused about the "peticide". I have read gerbils, hamsters and now it was his sister's hamster.
What was the critter/critters? Not that it really matters but you would think they would get it straight. You know the saying "if you always tell the truth you wouldn't forget anything". Not to get maudlin but just how did he allegedly kill said pet(s)?

I have looked for documentation but all I can find is the sources being the Jennifer Graves and the Coxs' lawyer yammering about it. Hearsay hearsay and more hearsay. Even if it was in the divorce documents we all know how valid accusations are during a nasty divorce. Remember Hillary Adams ( the spanked girl) mother's affidavit?

The story about the butcher knife is particularly fascinating. Ummmm he was doing the dishes, and gets snarky with mom in somewhat typical teenaged nastiness (not condoning) and how convenient he was holding a knife at the time. They try to make it sound like he brandished the knife (but carefully avoid those words) but the story reads he was holding it when he turned to respond.

Why is this all coming out now? Why do the Coxes have yet another lawyer? Guess the first one was the family law guy to steal the kids. Now they have one for ....I smell a civil suit coming perhaps?

This was on one of the many sites with he said/she said comments.

"It has also been revealed that when Powell was a teenager, he threatened his mother with a butcher knife and tried to kill himself.

In court papers from 1992, Terrica Powell wrote: 'I felt extreme fear when Josh made a veiled threat at me with a butcher knife in his hand.

'His demeanour was menacing for a moment as he said, "Don't push it, mom," I was terrified and left the room to go downstairs.'"