"If I could go back and change the darn title I would. And it was more than 2...it was 6 guys. All looking at it.

My new title would now be - "Even after said very smart WOMAN pointed out the instruction manual the men all managed to f it up badly."

VERY badly. So much so that said woman is having a bit of a panic attack. It still isn't installed properly and it looks like both the DW and the cabinets are busted. Said woman is PO'd."

Some people bothered by your title really need to lighten up. Offended people are offensive...you were obviously blowing off some steam.

I hope you can get those cabinets fixed to your satisfaction. It sounds like you have incompetent contractors...

Pete

Chipshot: I'm sure women are capable of doing all the work that's being done on our house. So how come so far it's been virtually all men?

So using this and others opinions, let's reason deductively, shall we? Note all rules cited are based upon a universe represented in this thread only.

1. All remodeling contractors are men
2. All men know it all already
3. Most men don't need no stinkin' directions including those force-fed to them (i.e. RTFM)
4. Some remodeling jobs go FUBAR
5. Women read the instructions for jobs going or gone FUBAR and know how job should have been performed

So, what can we infer from the rules of the universe above?

A. On the surface, #2 cannot be resolved with #4. Therefore, product being installed is useless and unnecessary.
B. All women are annoying as the dickens to have around remodeling work
C. All white knights are women
D. ????

Why are we having this discussion? If Buffetgirl had read the instruction manual that had been lying on the counter for a week, she'd have known what the installation options were instead of ranting here for several days.

The moral of the story -- if you want things done properly --DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Not reading instructions isn't something exclusive to only one of the genders.

jamessk, as someone who seems to be offending someone I've paid to do a job by asking them why they aren't doing it an "obvious" way, I'm continually perplexed by why I'm paying a professional so much money yet the contract doesn't seem to include any common sense? If I wanted to figure it out and do it myself, why would I hire someone else?

"Flame on all you want but we have a car with GPS and my DH still gets lost. Why? you might ask -- because he won't put the address into the computer; prefers to "wing it." His explanation is very similar to Pete's. :-)"

How funny. We had a rental car with GPS on a recent trip to LA. DH was only to happy to play with it and input the desired address. However, he then kept ignoring the directions!!! What should have been a 15 min. trip ended up taking almost an hour and took us through some of the worst parts of LA!

When my DH and I decided to marry, he confidently told me that I would never have to worry about fixing things around the house, because he could! Isn't that wonderful? I thought he was just like my Dad, who can fix anything!

Little did I realize there was an addendum to that boast. The addendum goes something like this, "If anything breaks and it is not covered by the warranty and you can't fix it, then by all means call the repair man and DH will pay the bill. The only delay to having a thing fixed will always be my fault for not calling for help."

I'm mechanically inclined and DH is not. Any skills he possesses building or fixing anything has been by trial and error and my reading the directions because he surely will NOT read any directions. If we travel to a new part of town and do not know exactly how to get to a destination, then I had best be driving because hell will freeze over before he stops to ask for directions. I usually ask him to pull over so I can go to the rest room and get coffee. He'll agree, then I'll ask for directions inside the store, then ask him if I can drive, which he will allow me to do so. This has worked almost 18 years.

If he has to read a manual or didn't learn a skill in high school, he won't do the chore. The only yard tool he'll use is the John Deere tractor mower and that's because he can sit on his fanny and drive. He does not pay attention to detail doing chores, I do. I knew this when I married him.

I do have to say one thing, when it comes to working with wood doing trim work or painting, he's the best. He is diligent and careful. And he's a GREAT PROVIDER, FATHER, AND HUSBAND!

james- I have been venting in this thread for 1 day. The day it happened. Not days. I read the manual, I assumed they did as well so I was sort of taken aback when they hadn't and in my first post when I said I read it, I meant I READ IT TO THEM. My point was, I had read it, I already knew how it was supposed to be installed, I was trying not to insult their professionalism by insinuating that they didn't know how to do it. So for a week I waited.

anyway, igloochic called me a pooh pooh head and now I'm insulted by that. I am a PARROT HEAD...rofl. get it right.

This thread has me cracking up.

anyway, The cabinets seem ok - I thought they were split last night but they're not, and I've found all the 2 missing plugs which leaped out at me and there are no wayward screws. So I think it's ok.

To be fair, mindstorm, the lead representative for our cabinet company is a young woman, and she has been excellent. She'll be around to supervise installation, and I have every confidence that the result will be great.

I now have offended all pooh pooh heads...and parrot heads :oP Dang how will I survive? :o) heh heh

Frankly I'd rather have a DH who prefers to call a repairman than one who does it himself (ok the one I have anyhoo). He has a habit of getting to the "Oh F it" point, which normally means that sixteen extra holes have been drilled in a wall, ceiling, or whatever, and the "thing" in question still does not work. I cringe everytime he looks for a tool.

He's brilliant, a fabulous father, wonderful husband, and a total disaster with a wrench!

He's brilliant, a fabulous father, wonderful husband, and a total disaster with a wrench!

Hey! I resemble that remark! ;)

oh my dh is fabulous around the house - he will fix everything in sight. But the last resort is usually the manual. The problem with having a handy guy is that 99% of the time he refuses to pay for work he can do himself. So while that is very economical, I have to wait until he can fit it in. Waiting on son's bookcase now...oh only a few years. lol

Before I get started on my reno, I have one question. If I hire someone to install my appliances, etc. I have to read the instructions first and explain it to them??? What the hell are you paying them for????

I lied, one more question. Who in their right mind would screw the dishwasher to the granite? STUPID.

Thank goodness my husband is so handy. Even though it may take him a year to get it all done!

lighten up, fellas!!! I'm sure you've all complained about "women drivers"!!! Sheeeeeeeesh.

that exactly was the point queen! on all counts.

"The problem with having a handy guy is that 99% of the time he refuses to pay for work he can do himself."

That's me. I was up on my 1:1 roof (3 levels in the front) on a ladder with a ridge hook in the spring because I refused to pay the roofing company $400 to come out and replace a few shingles.

I find doing things myself to be a great way to pay a fraction of the cost, even after buying the right tools for the job up front. Then, the next time you need to do something similar, it is even cheaper because you already have the tools.

Now, if only I had more time....

Pete

I do agree with you there. But there are times when you have to say...hire someone.

for instance, I can sew. But that doesn't' mean I will sew every item of clothing we wear or every curtain in my house. sometimes it's better to just buy them.

don't we wish we all had more time....

Instructions, we don't need no stinkin instructions! at least with my DH. It is rare he can't fix , build or make something just by taking a look at the object. But once in a great while, the sweat does break out on his brow, and he has to puzzle his way back out. That's when the magic words start( not repeatable here but they apparently work quite well especially on a tricycle I remember on a long ago Christmas Eve at 4 a.m.)
And we never, ever get lost, just temporarily misplaced so why ask directions? Except once, in Vancouver we were trying to find the route to cross back into the States, (no Canadian map software for our GPS and had to rely on a paper map)- we still tell stories of being lost in Vancouver for over 2 hours- about 3 AM. Going to gas station to gas station asking for directions and getting broken english- answers we could hardly understand we swear they bounced back and forth between the same gas stations.
I found someone to grow old with. Heck, he will be able to fix my glasses, my hearing aids, make my wheelchair go faster, what's not to like?? Sue

LOL!!! Buffettgirl, I do know what you mean about waiting for a man to get around to it... My friend introduced me to her "other husband" and now the shelf stanchions are actually on the wall instead of tripping me in the studio closet! (insert shiver of delight) A good handyman is hard to find :)

Although I wouldn't bash an entire gender, I knew what you meant when I saw the title of this thread. Back in the 80's, when home computers were still rare but I had one because a certain nameless male relative was into it, they introduced mouse for pc's. So male relative brings me one, opens the box, tosses the manual on the sofa and says, "We don't need that." Then he installed the mouse wrong and it was all wonky and I had to go online to find out what was wrong with it. Of course, to fix it I just opened the manual... RTFM indeed!!!

BTW, a woman friend of a friend is a carpenter. A good one. Much in demand. She's a very large, strong woman who can carry as much lumber as most men do. She does remodel jobs. And she's known for being quiet, quick and efficient. My tile guy's work partner is a woman. She does the same work he does. She's careful and clean and very good. I know many men in the trades who are also stellar. But there are women doing construction :)

P.S., you remind me of a saying I learned on another bulletin board a long long time ago. It came to mind when a different unnamed male relative asked if I knew how to sew on a button. Asking a quilter to do your mending is like asking Picasso to paint your garage.

Sorry Buffetgirl....but your position that you had already read the instructions a week ago and knew all along the correct way to do the installation, doesn't square with your postings. Take a look at your original post at the top of this thread: "GASP." (as in a the lightbulb just going on - emphasis, yours) "There are holes in the side that you can use to screw into the sides of the cabinets.". Your other posting on this issue also inquires if someone knows a better way to handle securing the DW in place.

If you knew this all along, why not simply instruct your contractors the way in which you wanted the machine installed?

Obviously, your preference was to create a posting here that would cause a kerfuffle with your gender-biased, thinly-veiled and abbreviated foul-mouth diatribe.

"Trying not to insult their professionalism" - My foot!

If I misspoke about the number of days your rant had gone on -- it was only because it seemed longer.

Hopefully, your DW is now correctly installed, and hopefully, you've enjoyed your 15 minutes of notoriety here.

This thread reminded me of a "directions story." I remember about 15 years ago, we were living in Dallas and we were on our way to see the Texas Rangers play baseball. DH was driving and we got lost because we had just moved to Dallas. He finally admitted that we had to ask directions. He pulled over and I went into a gas station and got directions to the stadium. Only problem was we ended up at Texas stadium, where the football team plays! We can laugh at it now, but back then.....GPS is one of the best things we ever did!!

Heaven forbid you want to vent your frustrations here. You shouldn't have to instruct THE PROFESSIONAL YOU ARE PAYING on how to properly install a DW. I don't care if you've read the damn manual a million times.

Vent all you want, Buffettgirl. I know your 15 minutes are almost up, but I'll still be here to listen!

I'm crying. James made me cry. bawwwwll...there James, you, being such a man, have put me in my place. I will forever remember to be a quiet little girl and look pretty and keep my mouth shut.

For the record, the gasp was SARCASM you lout. SARCASM. as in "GASP, the manual shows how to do this"...how silly of the silly little manual.

Now run along little boy and leave me alone.

and for the record, James, if you wander over to the appliance forum you'll see that on the 17th I had already known how to install it myself:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0217044727964.html

Which leads me to this post which was a RANT at the stupid idiots who couldn't RTFM.

James, Jeez man. Get a thicker skin and a bit of perspective! Your remodel has been over for years - what is your excuse for being so touchy? Most of these guys are in the thick of their remodels with the whole host of aggravations of an upside-down house to last minute decisions to jobs going awry. They are MUCH more entitled to a melt-down than you are. But you need YOUR feelings managed and your ego stroked? Come ON!

Buffetgirl is irritated that people who do this for a living - professionals all - don't know how to install a DW, don't appear to have seen one installed under granite before, and haven't the common sense to check instead of squandering everyone's times INCLUDING their own getting into the same stalemate over and over again when this info can be resolved by looking in the book. Does this REALLY need to be broken down into small sentences to parse? She could have burst here and said that her installers were ninnies and incompetents and have her blood-pressure up 100 points; or she could have attempted to lighten up her complaints. Apparently that raised YOUR blood pressure!

Do you seriously think that Buffetgirl has invented a DW installation story so that she could insidiously implement her male-bashing agenda to one day dominate the world??? Who is the REAL conspiracy theorist here?

Seriously, James. Get a grip and lighten up! Remember the reason for the existence of these fora is to give some guidance, ideas, declarative information, and to share experience with the people going through a remodel. It is not to provide amusement and a distraction for you and me whose construction jobs are over. There's plenty here that can make you roll your eyes. Be reasonable and rational about when you roll and keep moving and where you need to call someone out. This thread isn't one of the latter.

Yikes, some people are so touchy. Lighten up, women have been living with stuff for ages. How does it feel?

The only thing I can say to Buffetgirl is grow up! And keep your expletive-laden abbreviations and name-calling to yourself.

This forum used to be a place where people helped each other out with answers or suggestions. Unfortunately, there are now some posters who consider it a a soapbox where they can say anything, use not-so-clever abbreviations in place of expletives, and heap generalized scorn on whole groups of people. Then when someone calls them on their uncivil behavior, they want to sweep it under the carpet as sarcasm or letting off steam. What nonsense!

I don't disagree that the purpose of this form is to give guidance, share ideas and experience. It's also a place to share problems and seek some encouragement or solace. I simply don't think that anyone should feel free to post uncivil or unfair diatribes against manufacturers, entire groups, or call people names without being called on it.

If you need to vent in an uncivil manner, start your own blog.

Know what James, you bore me.

This is starting to remind me of an exchange I read a few years back where one man asked another if he had figured out how to 'become master of his own domain' all by himself or had received help.

James....calm down! It's all in fun and you are being too sensitive. She was just frustrated and I don't blame her because I've been there!
This forum is also for sharing frustrations and helping each other survive a remodel. A sense of humor helps as well as talking to people that understand. I say thanks for the laughs, this has been quite entertaining!
My DH has no patience for instructions, but after 25 years he throws them at me and says, ok what next? It works well!

"This forum used to be a place where people helped each other out with answers or suggestions."

Why the past tense, last time I looked this forum is still a place where people help other people with answers or suggestions.

So someone wants to vent, no big deal. So they use "expletive-laden abbreviations", whatever! I laugh more reading these threads than I would watching a sitcom on TV. Who needs therapy?

This is therapy!!!!

*makes like Lucy and hangs sign - 5 cents*

... one man asked another if he had figured out how to 'become master of his own domain' all by himself or had received help.

That is hilarious! Hope I can remember that the next time I'm in need (well, want, perhaps) of a quick and biting retort.

This is reminding me of an exchange I had with a couple of girlfriends of mine a few years ago about the emergence of "sensitive man". Seems like talk in the 90s was about men with sensitivity and about women seeking "sensitive man". Well, I came right out and declared that I was sick to the eye-teeth of "sensitive men", because all it seemed to mean was that these S-men were touchy-sensitive, easily offended and not that they were in the least bit empathetic-sensitive about how they behaved with anyone else (*me* for instance). There's was still an "I know it all" ego but now with whining and tears. So it meant that *I* needed to treat these guys as sensitive and not that they were going to behave any differently to me than not-sensitive man. Looks like we have a case of the same here. Our consensus view was that it was MUCH easier to deal with a chauvinist pig - you know where they stand, where you stand with them, and you know how to deal with them even if they do make you gnash your teeth.

... one man asked another if he had figured out how to 'become master of his own domain' all by himself or had received help.

That is hilarious! Hope I can remember that the next time I'm in need (well, want, perhaps) of a quick and biting retort.

This is reminding me of an exchange I had with a couple of girlfriends of mine a few years ago about the emergence of "sensitive man". Seems like talk in the 90s was about men with sensitivity and about women seeking "sensitive man". Well, I came right out and declared that I was sick to the eye-teeth of "sensitive men", because all it seemed to mean was that these S-men were touchy-sensitive, easily offended and not that they were in the least bit empathetic-sensitive about how they behaved with anyone else (*me* for instance). There's was still an "I know it all" ego but now with whining and tears. So it meant that *I* needed to treat these guys as sensitive and not that they were going to behave any differently to me than not-sensitive man. Looks like we have a case of the same here. Our consensus view was that it was MUCH easier to deal with a chauvinist pig - you know where they stand, where you stand with them, and you know how to deal with them even if they do make you gnash your teeth.

lighten up, fellas!!! I'm sure you've all complained about "women drivers"!!! Sheeeeeeeesh.

That made me laugh...I used to (and still occasionally do) say (to a woman driving a van or stationwagon badly) "Freaking Housewifes!"

Ok so I said it yesterday...I was following this "freaking housewife" who was driving while screaming at her children and swerving into my line...

Mind you I had to put my van in cruise and hand DS a binky before I had time to say it...and yet the irony of it didn't hit until today LOL

James...you have the right to remain silent, or better yet, not visit this thread if it bothers you so much. Give yourself a break if it stresses you out :) Life's so much easier that way!

Now back to my housewife duties..."Sewing buttons" HA! Oh that's a good one!

We all need to pay more attention to these "good wife" rules:

http://www.retro-housewife.com/good-wife-guidelines.html

I can only think of 3 words to say about the instructions ...

and the last 2 words are "the instructions."

I know what my wife means when she says she "needs a wife".

I remember my father complaining about women drivers. One day we passed a motorist who had offended him and he saw it was actually a man. After that he complained about the "bubbleheads".

ahhhhhhhh s-men are so irritating. I know a gal that is married to one.... if she is one the phone for more than 2 minutes he is pouting on the couch. I told her to tell him to put his big girl panties on and deal with it!!

HUH? Buffett/buffetgirl.......YOU gotta know what I mean. I thought you lived in California?!? Is it snowing in CA? Guess I'm terminally clueless.

ROTFL!! Pupwhipped, it's not terminal, but it snows in California. Buffettgirl doesn't live in any place I'd call Margaritaville, but we have a good portion of the Snowy Range in California (Sierra Nevada). And Mount Baldy (Mt. San Antonio) and the rest of the San Gabriels. Mount Shasta, which is in the Cascades. Lassen. The Siskiyous. The Tehachapis. It snows within an hour's drive of downtown Los Angeles in the Tehachapis and San Gabriels. We have snow skiing within an hour or so of surfing. It even snows in Julian which is in San Diego County (i.e., any farther South and you're in Mexico).

I don't know if it's actually snowing in California right now, but it's raining in So. Cal. so it's probably snowing somewhere close by.

"...and a total disaster with a wrench!"

Well, better that than handy with a wench. :^)

OMG, some of you have absolutely made my week!! If I weren't so fat I'd be ROTFL!!

My DH is a contractor and the way I get him to do something for me is to threaten to hire someone to do it. That gets him moving!! LOL He is excellent at putting things together, but even he needs the instructions on somethings, i.e., furniture. If I offer to read and help, he appreciates that as he doesn't have to constantly stop to read the directions while trying to hold the parts, etc.

My DH went to the grocery earlier afternoon because he couldn't find the Miracle Whip (behind the milk).
He was gone forever and I'm sure it was because he wouldn't ask for directions to get back home.

I have enjoyed this post soooooooooo much.
Oh...........Jamesk.....try this site:
www.bemboszoo.com-Bembo.swf
You will love it.....sob...now I have stooped to your tactics

littledog,

Yes, you are right! So right! :>)

But, sort of to get back to the original point/s. What is it with all the trades (pick a sex, any sex, but the very large majority is...)and the customer having to be so informed about the job they are paying someone else to do? My carpenter (hired to correct all the mistakes with our cabinets), said to me as I was going through the kitchen with him, "Oh, you know a lot about cabinets...". Well, I got my education from the University of Hard Knocks as it happens. Has it ALWAYS been like this, and now we are perhaps not so easy to be acquiescent when things aren't done properly? I don't know if it's fair, but one of the things I'm taking out of this reno is the lesson to NOT assume that the 'professional' I am paying knows anymore than I do.

I mentioned this thread to a man today after his electrician had left. Besides some repairs, the electrician installed three rather artistic -- okay, strange -- chandeliers. The first thing this electrician (also a man) did, apparently, was read the instructions!!

It does happen, Raehelen, but I think it goes back to that old saw: Good help is hard to find :)

Funny. Today is the first time I read this thread. I totally agree that some people need to lighten up.

This thread also reminds me on one that started a year ago. Some people were upset that there were too many "fun" posts and we should be more serious. I thought me the evil Alaskan chicken would be banned forever.

It seems to me that every once in awhile we go through a phase of 98% serious posts and frankly I think that gets a little boring. I have to admit that are threads that make we go "what?" and irk me a little (seems to happen when I have had a crummy day.) But they never irk me enough to post something negative about it. I just move on to the next post. (I have a hard time getting upset with my virtual comrades.) I think what makes this forum great is that it can be entertaining and informational.

After reading this post, I am a little surprised I never got beat up for my "man" in the morgue drawers. Then again, he/she kinda looked like Pat from SNL.

ROFl...now don't go dissing Pat Kelly! You'll get in trouble.
or wait, were you dissing dead people??

Pupwhipped..nope, I'm way out on the other coast.

raehelen - yes that's totally it. I feel like I have to know everything that everyone is doing, and be able to tell them how they should do their jobs. Has it always been like this you ask? I don't know. But I do know that I think it's my obligation to know what's going on in my house AND avoid potential mishaps.

Where have I been to miss this one??? As an old guy, I see two things in Buffetgirl's initial message. 1) Always, always read the directions regarding new equipment--if you possibly can--before the installation. It will give you some idea of how well or badly your installer is doing. (We're remodeling our kitchen soon--let's see how well I take this to heart.) 2) The dishwasher is the plumber's responsibility to install. I'd say your plumber is totally a zonk if he didn't know that the DW has the side-mount screw holes.

from what I'm finding out Jim, not all dw's have side mount screws now...which seems so contrary since many people have granite. It would seem totally necessary to have them, but apparently not. Weird huh?

I've enjoyed reading these replies so much! TFF! Buffetgirl, I'm feeling for you and can totally relate ;~P