My gut reaction is also to delay the basement reno unless you really have a compelling need for it.

When you meet with the contractor make sure he tells you what is driving the cost. That will help you in planning going forward. Don't forget, you might find a different plan that works just as well but is a lot cheaper to execute. Good luck.

I am doing a similiar renovation to my 1948 cape and had a similiar experience with my first round of bids. My architect drew plans he felt were feasible for our budget, but when we bid the plan out, our bids were more than double our budget. It was very frustrating and it was very hard to put the fantasy plan aside and come to terms with what was feasible.

I think you definitely need to decide exactly what materials you want to use before you bid out your project. Especially consider your roofing, siding, decking, and window brands / materials.

I'll give you some examples of how we saved some money. We really wanted Marvin windows, but decided in the end to go with Anderson 400 series. We put our choice of hardware on the sliding patio doors, but used standard hardware on all the windows. We were planning to use vinyl siding as a budget choice, but found that hardie board siding would actually be cheaper after all the trim was considered and we like it better. We opted to use Ipe Brazilian walnut for our porch instead of composite. We saved some money because the fasteners for composite decking are expensive.

We are paying for all our own materials and in most cases, we are given the contractor's discount.

Even with all our cost cutting, we are still over budget, but at least I know exactly what the charges were and what I gained by choosing each more expensive option.

I advise that you get more bids on your project and ensure you have a starting estimate that is less than what you intend to actually spend - there's alot of choices along the way that can really increase the overall cost.

Good luck.

Wow. What a wake-up call, huh? Sounds overwhelming. I agree with the go out to dinner and have a drink idea.

Never dealt with a GC. Glad about that after reading these stories. Have to agree that that's an awful lot of fiat currency to be handing over to someone that has already shown less-than-confidence-inspiring behavior. Personally, I'd walk.

Just in your comments.
I understand you're reeling and horribly disappointed and upset. I feel like a pinball sometimes myself.

Assuming the plans you have are yours, get more bids. It should be fairly straight-forward for someone to look at the drawings (old and new) and come up with pricing.

BTW: When the back wall moves out, what happens to the upstairs rooms? Do they get enlarged as well? And does that 7' bump-out include enlarging the basement by 7' or does it stay the same size?

And finishing the basement: does that include new bathrooms and/or laundry?

Yes, the plans are ours and luckily I have a copy. When the back wall moves out the upstairs stays the same and so does the basement.

No bathrooms in basement just a separate laundry probably.

I think I posted and it got rejected and I didn't notice!

Neither the basement nor moving the stairs to basement is in the 202K estimate so there is no way we'd do it now... maybe down the road. The kids are 4 and 6 so we have a bit of time. It would be nice but we'd be able to wait a little...

I think he has the estimate down to $165 from yesterday's $202 so God knows what he cut out when he comes over tonight. Hoping we can have a sink at least. lol

i think the suggestion to take a break and reassess your needs is right on. i think you need to review your scope and scale back, perhaps no changes to footprint. while i am sure it is hard to hear, i think live oak is right on the money - the scope of what you are considering may be too much for the house that you have.

take heart - you will figure it out and you will get an improved kitchen. it is just going to take time and some revised thinking. my GC estimated way over too when i had my first quote. i got other quotes, revised scope and did some of the work myself and now i have a new kitchen. just need to finish backsplash. you will get there but it takes time. mine was a year in the design phase...

Suggestion #1
Walk away and get someone else.

#2
Move out of NJ. There are 30-40 other more reasonable states to live in.

jumpilotmdm- Ha! ; ) You're right on #2 for sure. Probably #1 as well.

.... and I thought my biggest problem was stain testing marble and figuring out which finish to use on my walnut island.... hmm.

OH! And which shade of yellow to choose for cabinets. That is a BIG one.

I'm also of the opinion that it makes more sense to find a larger house then re-do this one on that scale. Unless your basis in it is way below market value (30-50%) before you start.

He's cutting flesh if he's whittled it down from 200k to 65k and it sounds like he hasn't even put down the knife.

Do not make any specific decisions about which part of the plan to give up until you get more bids and more ideas for saving money.

antss- It's 165 but that was probably a typo.

marcolo- Definitely. No decisions. We will only listen and ask questions and tell him we have a lot to think about. Also, that at this point we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't get some other estimates before moving on or making other decisions.

Is that good?

Where in NJ are you? I am in NJ as well, Essex County. I just did some renovations with a great contractor for our exterior and I have been doing allot of the Kitchen as DIY. He gave me access to allot of his subs directly for my interior. I wanted things done a certain way and he and his subs did everything I had asked. I can give you his info but only pays if you are in northern NJ.

Can he send you (mail or fax) a bid with some real numbers? It sounds like he wants to 'come by and chat' and that often ends up with you and DH being pressured into something you do not want.

My advice would be to have him mail you some 'hard numbers' and spell out exactly what is left of your original plan. Ask him to show you labor costs and materials costs, too. Personally, I would not meet face to face, until you've had a chance to go over the numbers. If nothing else, tell him you and DH need a break and will contact him next week.

Remember, the only one 'in a rush' is the GC and he will almost certainly try to get you to sign something, so he can 'start the project, before he gets busy' or 'lock in those labor costs'. Trust me, there are some great GCs out there, but there are some great used car dealers, too. We always here about the ones, who are not so great though, don't we?

Take the weekend and don't talk to ANYONE until next week. You and DH need some time to talk about this and decide what to do next...without the possible high pressure sales job. If you're not in a hurry...what's the rush??? :)

And...all your research will come in handy, when you're ready to move forward with the project.

Find out when the expiration date is for the zoning variance that you were granted. That will tell you how big of a hurry you need to be in for any project.

I haven't read all the comments, but coming from another perspective- quality and reputation should not be under estimated. Get some other bids but if they're close, go with him. Our builder walked away from the project when he figured we owed less to him than it would cost him to finish. We incurred really high costs on this and ended up redoing a lot of things to get them right and finished evetything by being our own GC. Bottom line- I agree that he should have never guesstimated that far off, but if he's close with others- go with the known vs. the unknown contractor.

I am so sorry to hear this. It happened to me as well when we were starting our kitchen reno and I was in tears thinking it would never happen...but it did and it's great. I am also in northern NJ and will be happy to recommend my GC to you. You can email me through the site.

lavender- He told us he is bringing all the numbers. The 202 estimate and the new one. He said that right away yesterday as well.

holly- Yes! I definitely will do that. Very important! It was such a hassle to get in the first place.

I know he is 100% wrong here. He didn't give us the attention we deserved.
I will say I've spoken to so many people that have used him and they have had nothing but compliments for him regarding the quality of his work, his subs, even the fact that when a job is over (even a year later) if there's any issue he'll send someone over to take care of it. That he is trustworthy and like part of the family and people use him for several jobs in their home. This is why I can't believe this is happening. Perhaps he really just "messed up" (big time).

Fishies- Remember...he would work for you! Don't let him make any decisions for you, regarding this project...until you talk to some other GCs.

I know we haven't actually met, but you seem like a very sweet, nice person...who isn't quite sure exactly what you've wanted in your remodel. Don't get me wrong, you've made some wonderful choices, but during the process...I sometimes worried we might be having too much influence over you (regarding kitchen choices) and we truly have your best interests at heart.

If you don't feel you can (as Breezy says LOL) put your 'big girl pants on' and tell him in no uncertain terms that this is NOT what you all had agreed to and that you are not ready to move forward, without reviewing these numbers on your own...then don't meet with him.

If you and DH feel confident you can keep control of the situation during the meeting, then best of luck and let us know how it goes! :)

He didn't give us the attention we deserved. I will say I've spoken to so many people that have used him and they have had nothing but compliments for him regarding the quality of his work

Fishes, this really resonates with me. My KD recommended my GC. He presented a very reasonable estimate within my budget. I spoke to a number of his former clients (all women) who gave him rave reviews and who passed my BS detector.

Then there were little things. He failed to replace my under counter plywood. The old one was left. It was awful looking and it was the wrong thickness. It was right in the contract to replace. It resulted in a week's delay, and he just went, oh, okay. He used cheap puck lights that I made him replace. He used the wrong hinges (cheap) so that I didn't get a full overlay (my KD got someone in to replace the hinges and get the look I was after).

He always showed up on time, but always was in a hurry to rush off. He simply didn't give my job the attention it deserved. He must be doing this to other clients, because my KD and others in her shop have decided to no longer recommend him as a GC. And the thing is, he's not a bad guy, but he's so obviously trying to cut corners, I've lost all respect for him.

I consider myself fortunate because I didn't break the bank for this modest remodel and everything looks like it will turn out okay in the end. I wish you peace and the resolve to hang in there and take your time making this big decision.

lavender- No worries! Really I can put on my "big girl pants" when needed. We won't be making any decision tonight and will be talking to more GCs.

Your right about kitchen choices. I was not TKO before and really had no idea what I wanted. I just looked at pictures and that's it. Hence my ever changing ways. I've learned a lot here and always take into consideration people's advice because for the most part it's good advice and is coming from people who know way more about kitchens than I do.

2 littlefishies,
We also live in a suburb of NYC where it often pays to renovate rather than to move, so I understand where you're coming from.

When we renovated we got 5 bids and the highest bid was 2x higher than the lowest. 2 times!! That's a huge dollar amount. The subcontractor bids were very different. But most of the GCs were very upfront on their actual costs, including their subcontractor costs. They really shouldn't be hiding any costs from you- you're paying them.

We wanted to use one of the expensive contractors but we felt the electrical bid was too high. He had no problem with us getting a bid directly from another electrician. When you said the GC didn't want you to know "your" electrician's bid, that definitely seems wrong. Maybe not unethical, but not right.

As someone who used a GC even after my gut was telling me not to ( but we felt too far along to change course, delay the start of the job, etc.), I would encourage you to go with your gut. I wish I had listened to the doubts that I had because our renovation was completely stressful and quality wasn't up to par (despite wonderful recommendations from people we know.)

If you're having second thoughts now it's better to listen to them before it's too late. Good luck!

You have plenty of room within the existing foot print for a perfectly nice galley kitchen that suits a Cape very well. That would cut about 100K right there. I also don't see the utility of moving stairs. Do the kitchen without expanding, and do the basement. You might even have enough left over to do a deck.

2 littlefishies,
We also live in a suburb of NYC where it often pays to renovate rather than to move, so I understand where you're coming from.

When we renovated we got 5 bids and the highest bid was 2x higher than the lowest. 2 times!! That's a huge dollar amount. The subcontractor bids were very different. But most of the GCs were very upfront on their actual costs, including their subcontractor costs. They really shouldn't be hiding any costs from you- you're paying them.

We wanted to use one of the expensive contractors but we felt the electrical bid was too high. He had no problem with us getting a bid directly from another electrician. When you said the GC didn't want you to know "your" electrician's bid, that definitely seems wrong. Maybe not unethical, but not right.

As someone who used a GC even after my gut was telling me not to ( but we felt too far along to change course, delay the start of the job, etc.), I would encourage you to go with your gut. I wish I had listened to the doubts that I had because our renovation was completely stressful and quality wasn't up to par (despite wonderful recommendations from people we know.)

If you're having second thoughts now it's better to listen to them before it's too late. Good luck!

Where did you get your appliances? Try Appliance A Rama in Plainfield, NJ. Store doesn't look like much from the outside, but prices are good.

2littlefishes,
Greendesign in right on the money at 100K. My estimate for the bump out is about 50K to 80K not including the bigger kitchen that you must finish which adds to the cost.

I am going to be blunt. I have spent WAY too much on my house, way more than the numbers that you are throwing around, and I have learned alot from the process. I am quite good at ball park estimates.

Bump out is EXPENSIVE. There is no way to do it cheap and make it quality so it does not leak, sag, looks good, etc etc. So you need get a number for that bump out alone. 4ft of bump out costs not that different from 50ft of bump out (just the exterior bump out...) Then go back to the table and see how much you want the bump out. Once you know what each component costs, it helps to know what you want to keep.

I have no idea how you are paying the architect at this point but if it does not cost you too much, then you need to know what you can get without a bump out and what the cost for that is.

Looking at your existing house, if you don't bump out, and if you have 25K kitchen cabinets, expect to spend about 60K to 80K for the total kitchen. (including moving some plumbing/electrical etc) Cabinets are generally about 1/3 of cost of the job if you are paying the labor for everything. Most people that save money on DIY are not paying the labor cost. My electrician charges $75 per hour. My carpenters charge about $50 per hour. Yes, I have a list of folks that I use... (sad but true.)

If you are bumping out, then you need to add about 50K to 80K to that cost. (new foundation/posts/roofline match, roofing, framing, electrical, insulation, new windows, dry wall, HVAC tie in, siding etc.) This is my ball park estimate from having done too much work. Not only that, your kitchen is bigger, so the kitchen costs go up.

Then add 10K for house painting interior.
Another 10K or so for exterior painting, if you do the bumpo out. (you can't not paint the exterior....)

I see that 200K is a rather accurate estimate from my perspective using Seattle prices. (ie big city)

When do a bump out, you can't really live in the house.
You have to figure out another living arrangement. Unless you have good friends or family, you have add the cost of moving and renting for a few months. This is minimum 10K where we live.

2K per month for a small house to rent. It costs money to move in and out.

Did you get my message? If not, I'll resend (I dont think I've sent a message through gardenweb before)

GreenDesigns seems to be on the mark. May want to approach the whole thing with a fresh look and save $100,000+ of your hard-earned money.

I wanted to mention to you that I had to install a 24 ft long by 18" deep beam for my cape bump out, to support my existing upstairs and it runs across the new extension. This beam, brought in on a crane and lifted over my house, cost $2,600 (and I am sure my GC got 10% of that). Maybe this info will help you decide whether to do support columns or a flush beam if you do bump out.

"Maybe he is too high end for us?" He didn't give us the attention we deserved."

This will probably sound rude, but it isn't meant to be.

He is too high end for you, and you don't deserve his attention if your description of this contractor and his client list/general budget range is accurate.

It's easy when coming to an online forum to get a ton of sympathy and a lot of outrage at what most of us perceive as WAY WAY expensive numbers. However, the reality of life is that everyone has a budget. And remodeling budgets are on the same bell curve as most of life's expenses. Because the vast majority of us live somewhere in the middle of the bell, outlier numbers are somewhat jarring. And especially once you get to the highest end of the chart, they can be mind boggling!

In this situation, you're dealing with a contractor who works on expensive projects for people who have the resources to do them. You aren't those people. I don't say this disparagingly but I do agree with the myriad other folks who have said it's time to stop, put on the brakes and start looking for options that will work for your budget.

Who can know just from reading online posts what the exact truth is but from what you say the contractor isn't trying to cheat you, and he is making an honest good faith effort to work with what you have to spend. However even with good intentions on both sides, this might not be the right match. Both of you may be wise to realize that and part amicably. Or, who knows maybe he will come down to a number you can live with. Even if that happens he is still going to be approaching your job from a background of working with budgets that are high and customers who don't blink at spending a lot more than you can or will. And that may well lead to a pretty negative experience in the end, for both of you.

Good Morning Everyone-

Thanks for your comments. I can't address everyone right now, but thank you!

GreenDesigns- Thank you for your schematic. My DH and I have much to think about with regard to our renovation. I think your idea would look fine for sure and by not having an EIK, we gain some space in that regard. (by losing table)
It brings the question of whether this would be sufficient for us if we plan to remain in this house for several years. The kitchen reno is about updating, gaining functionality, but also to form a gathering space that we are lacking. We like to entertain on holidays and we have large families. I'm not talking about huge dinner parties, but being able to invite family etc. for holidays, birthdays and hanging out. Losing all seating in the kitchen IMO makes it less of a space to gather in (although people always do just that). It is a thought though and we will definitely think about that. My DH and I will sort through what our needs/wants are and take that part of it on ourselves.

kaismom- Thanks! Good numbers. If we don't bump out our $23K cabinets would lower for sure.
My parents live 10 minutes from here and we'd be welcome to "live" there if needed.

runninginplace- I get what your saying. He actually does a mix of high end as well as jobs like ours. He told me he would give me several refs of smaller jobs where people aren't bumping out or anything major. I do think you are correct in some of your statements though.

SO, here is what happened last night in a nutshell:

GC came over and spend 1.5 hours with us. No pressure. Never asked us to sign anything. Encouraged us to take some time away and think about all the info we have been given. Zoning is good for 1 year. I also told him we wanted to get other estimates and he said Absolutely. That he would never ask us not to do that. He said there will always be varying pricing and that in many cases you get what you pay for. (not all cases) He did say that although the pricing didn't go as it should have (and I'll get there in a minute) that building is where they excel and that they are hard to beat on that end. ( I could elaborate but will save space here.)

He said they give the most detailed pricing of almost anyone around and they don't add on for anything except for major unseen circumstances (oil tanks, etc). He said they deal with small things along the way and are not looking to upcharge people for several line items here and there. "That's not what we're about."

He brought over his notes from our first casual meeting and at that time told us kitchen would be $125-150. At that time we were talking a 3-4 foot bump out vs. the current 7 ft. I am the one who actually kept quoting his $125K and then that number kind of "stuck" conversationally over the past 5 months. He took full responsibility for not getting closer pricing sooner. However, he said he hates to guess because they are so good at actual pricing but we didn't have the building plans done until only 2 weeks ago. That's b/c we were waiting for the zoning hearing which was the end of January before drawing them up. So, he said he should have started exploring pricing (masonry, etc) sooner but really wanted to have the building plans.

He brought over the 202K estimate and line by line went through it with the updated estimate which is $163,608. He told us exactly what he removed. He realized it would be best to remove 2 large steel beams and use a support column and was able to use a wood beam in a smaller area where steel wasn't necessary. Somehow that came to a $21,000. deduction. Also removed prep sink, pot filler, insta-hot fixtures and labor, which saved almost $2000, framing and labor for one day that they didn't need, some roofing that didn't need to be replaced but added onto, our electrician was $2000 less, $2500 for backsplash, and removed a bay window and put regular windows of same length. They normally add overhead and profit onto appliances but he took it off.

Of course, we can add some of that back on if we really want it. Also gave us some options we might want to remove but is leaving it to us.
*Framed Porch & Roof $5800, Use pressure treated wood for deck instead of composite (it is a different name 5 1/4 or something) -$2500, and if we want to adjust appliances a bit. Also is getting another cabinet quote from another custom person that he has seen his work and is very good and reasonable.

They have a woman whose job is to do the pricing and she had some extras that were variables that he was able to remove (like new electrical box that our guy said we didn't need). He hadn't seen the 202K estimate before he called me with the number from is car, but wanted to let me know asap and then he spent 2 days working on it further...

Anyway, with the potential $155-163K of this updated estimate he is explaining to us that he wasn't really that for off from his original estimate which was thrown out as 125-150K with a smaller bumpout. This all still includes the deck, siding 3 sides of the house, moving our garage door entrance from back to side of house, and if we want to move the basement stairs we can as he said he's going to replace them anyway.

In Conclusion: DH and I are going to give our plans to 2-3 other builders and see what they come up with. Also we need to make some decisions as I mentioned way at the top regarding bumpout, basement, etc.

Many GW members wrote "follow your gut" several times... HONESTLY, my gut about this guy has always been that he's "the guy". EXCEPT for when I got the 202K estimate and also that I had asked him about pricing a few times and he kept saying he wanted to wait. Now I can see maybe his wanting to wait for the building plans is a legitimate point although like I said he says he was wrong and should have looked at more concrete numbers sooner. Also, that when the architect had put in the steel beams so we wouldn't need support columns that he should have shot that down right away.

OK, I think I wrote this as much for me as for you. Posting helps me get my thoughts together. Enough for now. I'm exhausted and need a break!

DH and I will work through this and I don't want to rush it until we are sure of our best plan of attack. Please know we are keeping our options OPEN. However, we are also feeling a bit relieved about the GC after last night if he should end up doing our job.

-Fishies

Good Morning Everyone-

Thanks for your comments. I can't address everyone right now, but thank you!

GreenDesigns- Thank you for your schematic. My DH and I have much to think about with regard to our renovation. I think your idea would look fine for sure and by not having an EIK, we gain some space in that regard. (by losing table)
It brings the question of whether this would be sufficient for us if we plan to remain in this house for several years. The kitchen reno is about updating, gaining functionality, but also to form a gathering space that we are lacking. We like to entertain on holidays and we have large families. I'm not talking about huge dinner parties, but being able to invite family etc. for holidays, birthdays and hanging out. Losing all seating in the kitchen IMO makes it less of a space to gather in (although people always do just that). It is a thought though and we will definitely think about that. My DH and I will sort through what our needs/wants are and take that part of it on ourselves.

kaismom- Thanks! Good numbers. If we don't bump out our $23K cabinets would lower for sure.
My parents live 10 minutes from here and we'd be welcome to "live" there if needed.

runninginplace- I get what your saying. He actually does a mix of high end as well as jobs like ours. He told me he would give me several refs of smaller jobs where people aren't bumping out or anything major. I do think you are correct in some of your statements though.

SO, here is what happened last night in a nutshell:

GC came over and spend 1.5 hours with us. No pressure. Never asked us to sign anything. Encouraged us to take some time away and think about all the info we have been given. Zoning is good for 1 year. I also told him we wanted to get other estimates and he said Absolutely. That he would never ask us not to do that. He said there will always be varying pricing and that in many cases you get what you pay for. (not all cases) He did say that although the pricing didn't go as it should have (and I'll get there in a minute) that building is where they excel and that they are hard to beat on that end. ( I could elaborate but will save space here.)

He said they give the most detailed pricing of almost anyone around and they don't add on for anything except for major unseen circumstances (oil tanks, etc). He said they deal with small things along the way and are not looking to upcharge people for several line items here and there. "That's not what we're about."

He brought over his notes from our first casual meeting and at that time told us kitchen would be $125-150. At that time we were talking a 3-4 foot bump out vs. the current 7 ft. I am the one who actually kept quoting his $125K and then that number kind of "stuck" conversationally over the past 5 months. He took full responsibility for not getting closer pricing sooner. However, he said he hates to guess because they are so good at actual pricing but we didn't have the building plans done until only 2 weeks ago. That's b/c we were waiting for the zoning hearing which was the end of January before drawing them up. So, he said he should have started exploring pricing (masonry, etc) sooner but really wanted to have the building plans.

He brought over the 202K estimate and line by line went through it with the updated estimate which is $163,608. He told us exactly what he removed. He realized it would be best to remove 2 large steel beams and use a support column and was able to use a wood beam in a smaller area where steel wasn't necessary. Somehow that came to a $21,000. deduction. Also removed prep sink, pot filler, insta-hot fixtures and labor, which saved almost $2000, framing and labor for one day that they didn't need, some roofing that didn't need to be replaced but added onto, our electrician was $2000 less, $2500 for backsplash, and removed a bay window and put regular windows of same length. They normally add overhead and profit onto appliances but he took it off.

Of course, we can add some of that back on if we really want it. Also gave us some options we might want to remove but is leaving it to us.
*Framed Porch & Roof $5800, Use pressure treated wood for deck instead of composite (it is a different name 5 1/4 or something) -$2500, and if we want to adjust appliances a bit. Also is getting another cabinet quote from another custom person that he has seen his work and is very good and reasonable.

They have a woman whose job is to do the pricing and she had some extras that were variables that he was able to remove (like new electrical box that our guy said we didn't need). He hadn't seen the 202K estimate before he called me with the number from is car, but wanted to let me know asap and then he spent 2 days working on it further...

Anyway, with the potential $155-163K of this updated estimate he is explaining to us that he wasn't really that for off from his original estimate which was thrown out as 125-150K with a smaller bumpout. This all still includes the deck, siding 3 sides of the house, moving our garage door entrance from back to side of house, and if we want to move the basement stairs we can as he said he's going to replace them anyway.

In Conclusion: DH and I are going to give our plans to 2-3 other builders and see what they come up with. Also we need to make some decisions as I mentioned way at the top regarding bumpout, basement, etc.

Many GW members wrote "follow your gut" several times... HONESTLY, my gut about this guy has always been that he's "the guy". EXCEPT for when I got the 202K estimate and also that I had asked him about pricing a few times and he kept saying he wanted to wait. Now I can see maybe his wanting to wait for the building plans is a legitimate point although like I said he says he was wrong and should have looked at more concrete numbers sooner. Also, that when the architect had put in the steel beams so we wouldn't need support columns that he should have shot that down right away.

OK, I think I wrote this as much for me as for you. Posting helps me get my thoughts together. Enough for now. I'm exhausted and need a break!

DH and I will work through this and I don't want to rush it until we are sure of our best plan of attack. Please know we are keeping our options OPEN. However, we are also feeling a bit relieved about the GC after last night if he should end up doing our job.

-Fishies

little fishes, I am writing again...
I have done our house in various phases because we could not afford to do it all at one time. I did not want to borrow that much at once. I also did not have the energy to make so many decisions at once.

Before embarking on each remodel, we look at local real estate in earnest. We get our real estate agent to show us alot of house. We look at houses that we are interested in living in 'as is' where we are not giving up what we have in our current house. Then we start doing the numbers from that. Regarding selling/buying and remodeling. There is a huge cost to selling. In seattle, I budget 10% of the price of the house: 5-7% to the agent, 2% excise tax, cost to clean/declutter/paint/stage and move. There is no way you can sell for less than that unless you can do FSBO. Not our thing. Anyrate, everytime we look at the local RE market, we find houses that we think is better(and we want to live in) than what we have at about 50% to 100% more than our current house. We alway come out ahead with remodels. Much of this has to do with the fact that we have a view from our living space not from our bedrooms. We don't want views from our bedrooms but not from the K/DR/LR... For example, we saw a view house a few blocks away but the kitchen was in the back without any view. LR was the only room with a view. The fact is by the time I am sitting in the LR, it is pitch black outside. Where as we enjoy the view every mornining when we sit for breakfast and at every meal AND all day because of our open plan. There was no way to open up the kitchen to the view without spending about 100K and the house cost way more than what we can get for our house. We could not make the move at the added cost! You have to figure out what is important to you.

It all worked out. It's not the end of the world to do the remodel in stages.

If you end up remodeling in stage, I suggest that you and your architect and builder figure out what should be done at what stages and have a long range plan. For example, even if you can't get your basement done right now, you should have a reasonable plan. For example, what you can do now is to have stubs for plumbing if this is a good time. If you want to have gas fire place later, have gas brought to where you want it, etc. If the gas guy is coming, it will only be a bit more to bring extra line.

The cost is what it is....
Ask around, get multiple estimates. However, I suggest going with builders that do 'good' work over builders that are cheaper. In the end, it will cost you more money to 'redo' bad work, if you end up with work that is under par.

Anyrate, everytime we have made decisions to remodel, I used that 10% number to help me gauge if I should move or remodel. FWIW, I have done multiple remodels.

Regarding 4ft bump out versus 7ft bump out... 4ft bump out may have been cantilevered from the existing foundation without pouring new foundation. This reduces the cost significantly. If you are bumping out with new foundation, you may well explore more bump out to really make your gathering your space useful. 7ft does not save you much relative to 10ft for example.

Remodeling Magazine's graph for costs vs. added value for a major mid grade kitchen remodel. Notice that they use laminate counters and vinyl flooring in a "mid-grade".

"Update an outmoded 200-square-foot kitchen with a functional layout of 30 linear feet of semi-custom wood cabinets, including a 3-by-5-foot island; laminate countertops; and standard double-tub stainless-steel sink with standard single-lever faucet. Include energy-efficient wall oven, cooktop, ventilation system, built-in microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal, and custom lighting. Add new resilient flooring. Finish with painted walls, trim, and ceiling."

Chart for the Boston metropolitan area. Note the worsening of added value in this market while the costs are higher.

"Update outmoded 200-square-foot kitchen with 30 linear feet of top-of-the-line custom cherry cabinets with built-in sliding shelves and other interior accessories. Include stone countertops with imported ceramic- or glass -tile backsplash; built-in refrigerator, cooktop, and 36-inch commercial grade range and vent hood; built-in warming drawer, trash compactor, and built-in combination microwave and convection oven. Install high-end undermount sink with designer faucets and built-in water filtration system. Add new general and task lighting including low-voltage undercabinet lights. Install cork flooring, cherry trim."

For the Boston area. You'll note that not only is it more expensive, but there is far less payback for an upscale kitchen than there is a mid-range kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Data comparison charts by region and city

OKay.

That (the explanation, along with Kai's), makes sense. He doesn't strike you as being sleazy and it sounds like he really does want your job.

Some of the items you're eliminating aren't even necessarily permanent eliminations. You can change out a window later. The instant hot dispenser...wait minute--those aren't high dollar items. But easy addons later (unless it goes on the prep sink). Prep sink? May or may not be doable later, depending on what's under it. Pressure treated vs composite decking? As a materials snob, I'd prefer it unless your local environment requires the FAKE stuff. :) Backsplash? Most of us live with painted backsplashes for a long time while we pick out our BS, and some stick with paint. Do it later. Don't need a BS for a gorgeous functional kitchen. Potfiller? Um. Probably depends on access. Might want to see how much plumbing you can put in place for future upgrades.

I think there is hope for your dream remodel. It just might take a little longer to get all the fancy bits of your plan in place. And that's not always a bad thing.

Try to enjoy the challenge. To me it sounds like you're close. Just not as close as you thought you were last week!

I think it's unusual to see a GC actually say he was wrong without pussyfooting around it.

2LittleFishies, I'm busy and only read part of your post, so I maybe missed the part where this contractor shaved his profit margin, in addition to suggesting lots of cuts by whittling down the job. He may be great, but definitely get those other bids. Work is slow now, your project sounds very standard, and many contractors need to find work for themselves and their subs.

Fishies- I'm so glad the meeting went well. It sounds like a slightly smaller bump out or waiting on the basement might be good options. Kaismom makes an excellent point about having a plan for the basement, even if you're not doing the work yet...especially for a gas fireplace, plumbing, etc.

If your builder thinks you could save significant amounts, with a 4' bumpout, rather than a larger one...maybe you could still have your island and if not a back, baking wall...at least some shallow pantry storage.

Whatever you decide, congrats to you and DH for taking a breath and deciding what to do next. Have a wonderful weekend :)

This is sort of like "Bang For Your Buck."

When I look at many of the kitchens here, I shake my head with envy. But, if I could afford a similar kitchen, I wouldn't be living in my modest 90s tract house in the first place. I doubt anyone on my street has upgraded their original builder's grade kitchens. The $20K I invested in my reno is about what it's worth. I'll start replacing appliances one at a time when my cash flow recovers.

I didn't get to read all of this but I will later. The GC just called me and wants to see if DH and I want to go out with him this afternoon to see 3 of the homes he is working on (almost done) and meet his crew, etc. Of course, we are going although we have already seen some of his work. It will be a good chance for more ?s too.

OK. At this point, throwing numbers around isn't that helpful. Because the only ones that matter are the ones Fishies gets from her local contractor.

I just wanted to respond to this:

In this situation, you're dealing with a contractor who works on expensive projects for people who have the resources to do them. You aren't those people.

There is something called zip code pricing. Contractors charge more in wealthier ares. To put it bluntly, the rich vastly overpay.

I know this for an absolute fact, being able to compare specific projects with specific materials and standards of workmanship for situations I am personally familiar with. There are several reasons.

First, the rich like to brag. At parties in one town near me, wealthy people have been heard to brag about having Siemans electrical panels and seen to roll their eyes at 200 amp service. Not all these houses are that large--land costs are high, so small houses can be expensive--and clearly much of this work is unnecessary when you actually see the houses and appliances. It's a boasting point that adds to cost, and the rich have a tendency to choose more expensive solutions not because they need them, but because they always deserve "the best."

Second, the rich don't like people with accents. In my renos I always found the best workmanship and best prices by selecting immigrant contractors. Around here, the rich don't mind Latino workers but they expect the GC to be well-spoken, well-dressed and American-born.

Third, the rich like paperwork and bureaucracy. They expect their phone calls to be picked up promptly by an "office girl" and want a "team" working on their project. One of the most expensive builders near me has tons of complaints on Angie's list and charge very high prices. Those prices go to support many layers of management, but not necessarily to a customer's benefit--it's more about their own internal red tape. But their prices make them a name builder and so people covet their signs for their lawns.

Again, not all rich people are like this of course. But this is a real market, and one that certain "prestige" builders specialize in. Which is why the rest of us know to avoid those companies.

Hi All,

Saw some homes, the first was modest with a much smaller kitchen than ours so I guess that was to show they do work in modest homes. The 2nd was also smaller home but gorgeous renovation and a great zip code. The 3rd was a $175K basement. Wine room, theater, etc... We met some of the guys (funny you mention accents, etc. Marcolo b/c they were all white, English speaking people). Each site had a calendar that is updated regularly and they are all about staying on target for deadlines. I'm sure this doesn't always go as planned, of course.

Well, FWIW I think it's a great company but we will be comparing prices b/c we don't want to pay A lot extra for the things that Marcolo mentions above. However, I don't think I can categorize all high end builders in that way- meaning- again I hear all praise about this one in particular - but am not naive enough to think there are not some people out there who might say differently. I have heard from his clients that he runs a tight ship.

That's all for now. I feel weird totally judging this guy here. Ha!

Oh- by the way in my zip code and the surrounding couple there are so many renovations CONSTANTLY going on. If people are not buying a NEW house, they seem to do renovations on the older homes in the area. It's almost as if "Who is your builder?" is as common a question as "where do you get your haircut? or Who is your doctor?" Except for the older people who have been here for several years, there are many new people who come in and do the most they can to the older homes.
I would NEVER consider the $ we're putting into our home in our other location which was only 20-30 minutes away. It would be totally ridiculous b/c houses were a dime a dozen & there were cheap new homes being put up all over the place. However, here it's a different story. Just wanted to add that b/c I know some of you may not see the full picture...

I just had a feeling there was a communication issue.
Thrilled to hear it is going much better and you can
relax (well feel at ease). My statement is the same!!!

"Sometimes the Devil you know is better than the Devil
you don't."

I had a feeling your stress was not about his ability
or reputation but really about the price, project and all the
unknowns. Glad to hear that things are all looking better.
After reading your posts, this contractor sounds fantastic.
Honest, honorable, and hardworking.
A keeper.
~boxer

I just want to comment on the steel beams vs. support column - we came to loggerheads with our builder in the middle of our remodel because the framer did not correctly read the architect & engineer's plans and framed our hipped roof differently from the drawings. The construction stopped while the project manager tried to convince us that we'd need a support column (in the middle of our open plan LR/DR !! ) because there wasn't room for the extra deep beam in the attic. Our engineer came to the rescue and ended up finding an engineered beam that did the right job. It required a special order framing hangar (which the builder covered) but otherwise there was no revision needed for the roof framing or our floor plan.

I realize your architect specified steel beams and your GC has suggested taking them out to save money. My point is that there may be a way for you to do both: have your structural engineer look at the plans (your GC should have one already, or you should have one) and see if there isn't a way to preserve your floor space and avoid a column.

What general part of NJ are you in? Which county?

It sounds like you are going through the same process that we did for our reno. We were shocked at one of the quotes that we got but the GC came highly recommended and my DH knew of him through real estate development industry. We had a similar meeting and went through his line by line very detailed budget.

The difference between the quote that he gave us and other quotes that we got was that he planned for the fact that because of the age of our house plumbing would need to be dealt with, as would electrical - no one else included those contingencies in their quote. They don't do change order charges and only charge for the actual work required because they know, from their experience, that changes will happen during the reno process. Everyone else charged extra for them beyond the actual cost.

We wound up choosing to go with this GC because he had addressed every contingency and he was realistic about what may or may not happen during the process.

People say to build in a 20% budget surcharge because of hidden costs and change orders. Our GC told us what the hidden costs could be and what they would cost. We actually came in under budget and on time because everything had been addressed before hand.

The nice thing for you is that you know what should be included in your budget, you now know what needs to be done and you have probably been given realistic costs - this GC is no dummy and it sounds like he knows his business. At least you'll be in a position of being able to question and discard low ball estimates.

Do what it takes to get the prep sink layout and pipe runs. The actual sink is up to you. But infrastructure is tough to put in "after the fact."

In my little neck of the woods, a two-sink kitchen is an absolute novelty, but it's one of the best features of this kitchen. I suspect that it will be one of the features that keeps my kitchen addition from dropping below the Value line on the graph. And I don't have a fancy materials kitchen.
____

Don't forget to keep 20% of the construction cost as an emergency kitty in the bank. And when discussing maximizing value when deciding the depth of the add-on, ask the contractor where the "standard lengths" bonus lies--the factor where materials don't need to be spliced. Use factory lengths whenever possible. Or exact half lengths. Speeds up the work and minimizes waste.