Up front costs of Geothermal heat pump vs. other heating methods
lizt06
18 years ago
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mepop
18 years agolast modified: 9 years agojava_man
18 years agolast modified: 9 years agoRelated Discussions
Trying to decide if geothermal is a way to go for us
Comments (4)Since this is new construction and you're well aware of the higher cost of geothermal I would say that the main difference in cost between a conventional system and geothermal would be the cost of drilling the boreholes or installing a horizontal ground loop. That's basically it unless you want to go for premium system that incorporates both in-floor radiant and forced air. Geothermal only requires supplemental heat, which should always be installed, if the heat loss of the envelope is greater than the HP can provide and as a backup incase of compressor failure or lockout. Remember, the efficiency of geothermal never changes due to it getting colder outside and that unlike a conventional air source HP geothermal never has a defrost cycle. The backup only comes on in tandem with the geo to assist the geo not instead of it. The backup is only on for relatively short periods of time till the thermostat is satisfied, then everything shuts off and goes back to 'normal'. Do you have access to natural gas and are you planning to install it for other uses such as a kitchen stove, gas fireplace, gas dryer, or instantaneous domestic hot water tank? SR...See MoreEnergy cost - heat pump vs. natural gas
Comments (11)I was trying to gauge the cost(for natural gas) when my furnace has run(consumed gas) for an hour's time. I did it two ways. First I just took the BTU input rating of the furnace and did the calculations from there. Then someone pointed out that the BTU input rating may not be an actual value. So secondly I needed to determine the amount of gas my furnace is actually consuming per hour. Here are the particlars: 1. I have Goodman model GMPN100-4 furnace. (natural gas, single stage, pilotless and an input rating of 100,000 BTU per Hour) FIRST WAY USING BTU INPUT RATING: 1.One cubic foot of natural gas has about 1,030 BTU. 2.Divide the furnace input rating(in my case 100,000) by 1030 to get the number of cubic feet of gas the furnace will use in one hour. So 100,000(BTU) divided by 1030(BTU per Cubic Foot) is about 97 Cub Feet. 3.My supplier's bill is based on units of one hundred cubic feet(CCF) so I divide 97 cubic feet by 100 to determine how many CCF the furnace will burn per hour. This turns out to be 0.97 CCF 4.My supplier charges $.745 per CCF so it costs me 0.97 times $.745 = $.72 per hour for natural gas for my furnace to run. SECOND WAY BY DETERMINING ACTUAL GAS CONSUMPTION: As stated above someone pointed out that the BTU input rating may not be an actual value. So I wanted to determine how much gas the furnace was consuming per hour. My gas meter has a 2 cubic foot dial. I set a video cam in front of the gas meter in the morning knowing the furnace would be on for at least 20 minutes to bring the house up to temperature from the night's setback. The furnace did run for about 20 minutes but I stopped my readings at 10 minutes. Here are some findings: In 5 minutes the furnace consumed 7.6 cubic feet of gas. In 10 minutes the furnace consumed 15.2 cubic feet of gas. So 15.2 cubic feet of gas in 10 minutes extrapolated out to 60 minutes would be 91.2 cubic feet gas per hour or 0.912 CCF/hr. At $.745 per CCF the cost is about $.68 per hour. From the input rating data (100,000 BTU/hr) I calcualted .97 CCF/hr. So the actual gas consumption was a little bit less that the input rating. Now some Notes: 1. My gas bill is broken down to a charge for gas consumption, a customer service charge of like $21 a month and of course the tax on the consumption charge. So it's pretty straightforward how much the gas costs per hundred cubic feet. This month gas was $.745 per CCF. 2. No other gas consuming appliances(oven, stovetop or hot water heater) were firing at the time of testing. 3. I understand that outside temp, thermostat setting and how well my home is insulated are factors as to HOW OFTEN the furnace will run. That wasn't my concern. I only wanted to know how much gas was consumed when the furnace ran for an hour. How that hour was achieved was not important. It could of been 60 continuous minutes or six 10-minutes cycles. In my case I took a 10 minute run cycle and multiplied that amount of gas usage by 6. I have since I've hooked up the following 24V hour meter to the gas valve: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/REDINGTON-Hour-Meter-2PPV9?Pid=search The meter progresses in tenths of an hour increments anytime the gas valve is open. I can tell how long the furnace runs each day, month or season. This helps with filter changes also. I've found that about every 125 hours the filter is dirty enough to be replaced....See MoreHelp - AC vs Heat Pump vs Geothermal in Oregon Log Home
Comments (6)Thanks Tigerdunes: Electricity use is as follows: First 1,000 kWh 6.778 â per kWh Over 1,000 kWh 7.500 â per kWh ( I use about 800 kwh without AC and 1300 Kwh with it) Propane: 2.69per gallon - usage in winter used to be approx 350-400 gallons per month! I agree that the mark ups for the Heat Pumps condensor are outrageous. The cheapest price I was quoted was $5310 for a Trane XB14 unit, or $5225 for RUUD. I started shopping in May, have had 4 contractors out here, and still see major issues with each contractor. The one I like the best is from Sky Heating, as he was the most thorough, and company got the best reviews. He had the lowest prices as well, but they are still about 3 times the wholesale cost. I have the money to pay for the more expensive systems, but I just can't find a good reason to do that. won't, on principle, as I feel they are purposefully marking them up. This kind of stuff happens to everyone, but seems to happen a bit more to single women ?!? (kind of a sexist comment, but I have noticed this to be true). Back to the subject at hand - I looked at QualitySmith.com for nationwide averages for installation on various Trane Heat Pumps - I compared it to the bids I received: Trane Installation costs (range nationwide) XR15:Install cost $4500-$10,000 (quote= $8100) XB14 Install cost = $3000-$7500 (qutoe was $5300) XB13 install cost =$2500-$6500 (quote was $6400) I noticed in another post that you were recommending a SEER 13 unit, but did not like the Trane XB13 (SEER 14-15) but not the Trane units. You specifically wrote that wrote that you would not get a Trane XB13. I was wondering if you liked any of the Trane models that I have listed? What Brands/models do you like that are SEER 13? Any suggestions for how to find a more competitive bid? I tried Bargaining with one contractor, and I could tell he was completely resistant to it- giving me less information each time I contacted him; strong arming me to come back and meet with me again, etc. Here are some other Brands I received bids for - they also seemed a bit high but are cheaper than others: : Carrier 25HBC5 Comfort - SEER 14.5 FOR $6289_ York YHJFLX series SEER 14.5 for $5869.00 RUUD 4 ton Achiever SEER 14.5 $5225 I would like to pay less than $5000 but that has not been possible. With 5000 Square foot home, and the logs not chinked, I don't envy the contractors for trying to decide what would work best. A two zone system is preferred in houses like this but the cost to retrofit is exorbitant. Desperately confused in Oregon! Thanks again...See MoreNoisy Compressor in Geothermal Heat Pump
Comments (14)mac I have an Econar GT heat pump in a second floor closet and had noise issues that were aweful. It turned out to be improper vibration dampening when the system was installed. The scroll compessors run between 50 and 60 cycles per second. The 3 stage fan in my 3 ton GT unit runs in the 1100 to 1800 RPM range (or 18 to 30 cycles per second). The guys who did the install laid the GT unit on the floor and put a rubber mat under the base. That mat became essentailly a vibration noise amplifier. I found that rubber can isolate very high frency vibs - not the lower frequnecies. The rubber is recommended at a minimum of 45 Hz - but it really doesn't work well until you get above 60. I know this is the case becuase my loop pumps in the basement run at 60 Hz and they are on rubber mats too - no vibration noise (there is acoustical noise from the impellar spinning - but that has to be dampened by other means). My solution was to jack up the unit - get if off the floor by 5 inches or so - and put vibration isolation mounts with springs on each of the 4 corners. These springs can dampen vibs down to a few Hz and up to 60Hz - they are much more effective then rubber in the frequnecy range of the unit. That fixed the problem. You can still hear the unit for the first 3 to 5 seconds after it first turns on - but once it is in steady state, it purrs. No louder than the hum of a refrigerator. My builder and HVAC contractor were stunned - appranetly they have this same issue in other houses they built with GT where people cannot sleep (but never told me that when they sold me the GT)! I think they owe me one. Your issue sounds similar to mine. Can you describe how the unit was installed - where it is, what is it resting on? What type of floor is it on - is it in a closet? Is the closet insulated? The site I used to but these products is www.acousticalsurfaces.com. Look under Vibration Mounts and then look under Housed Spring Mounts. The product is made by Mason Industries and needs to be chosen carefully based on your units corner weight. You need to determine if the noise you are hearing is acoustic noise or vibration noise. If it is acoustic noise - then you can use sound proofing insulation. If it is vibration noise - then you need dampeners. I used both - the walls of the room have insulation to dampen acoustic noise. The springs dampen vibration noise....See Morefsq4cw
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