Sounds like your husband has no clue what he really wants.So then,how are you supposed to know? In a way it sounds like he wants his cake and wants to eat it too.Doesnt want to stay together,doesnt want to get divorced.
Which isnt fair to you.

Because he wont get help from a therapist,this limits your options even more. And,he wont even go out on "date night" with you either.

I think alot of men,although they "LOVE" their children,have the same feelings your husband has.Maybe he still wants to be a kid himself?
It doesnt sound as though he will know what he had until it is gone though...and then will it be too late?
I'm terriably sorry about your marriage.I wish I could give better advice.All you can do at this point is stop trying to figure out what he wants and do what makes you and your sons happy.Best of luck to you...
And I'm sure someone will have some better advice here.

To Coolmama-

Thanks so much for your response. You did give good advice-- concentrate on doing what makes me and my boys happy. I try. Problem is, this is all so unresolved right now and the weight of the sadness and anger regarding it make me heavy and sad. It is not always easy to be smiles and sunshine in front of my boys and that makes me feel really mad at my husband and this situation we are in.

I accidentally dropped a small stack of dishes in the sink 20 minutes ago when I was filling the teapot with water and my husband "accused" me of purposely throwing dishes around in a passive-agressive attempt to piss him off. Unbelievable. His thoughts about me are so off...I told him that was not the case at all; in fact, I was putting a pot of water on the stove in order to make us hot tea so he could take it with him as he goes back to work (he is an attorney- his office is two blocks from our home and he has a trial coming up, so he needs to go back to work tonight to prepare. His work is his coping mechanism for what is going on around here so he often comes home to help tuck the kids in bed and then goes back to his office).

I love him, I miss him, and he knows this because I tell him. He has put me through a lot and apologizes for it, but as I told him tonight, regarding us, he is standing still. He has to move in one direction or another.

Ugh! I hate this!!!!! I'm a strong person but I am so tired of feeling this frustration, anger and sadness!!!!!

Sohurt,are you sure your husband really likes his job? Sometimes when a man is stressed at work they bring it home with them. My husband has done this before.I thought he was mad at me,but he was just irratated from something that happend at work.
Being a lawyer seems like it would be pretty stressful.

Do you ever spend any time apart? When my husband and I have fought before I would go to my sister's for a few days to give it some space.We would both be surprized how much we missed each other.
It is just too easy to take the ones we love for granted.I'am so sorry you are frustrated and sad.
I think all husbands in a way want to be mothered themselves.You are taking time to care for your kids,and he thinks you forgot about the biggest one.
You said he doesnt want to have sex with you,right? But then what did you mean you dont have alot of time to devote to him? In what way I mean,if not sex?

I dont know if this is true for everyone,but I think when you stop having sex little things start to come between you easier.Because sex has a way of bonding you emotionally,and if you arent having it with each other,little issues seem alot bigger.

Do you ever just try....to put the moves on him? Does he try with you? I really think if you rekindled that bond it would help.
If you really wanted to try one last time,you could try to drop the kids off somewhere (a grandma's house?) If nothing more then a few hours. Light some candles,have some wine,and just relax together for a little bit.
If you guys could just take down the walls between you,you could start communicating again.

coolmama may have a point about the job. It may really be bringing him down.

But, I think the main problem is that he is depressed. While I don't think more "talking" with a doctor will solve any major problems, I do think an adjustment to his meds may be in order. Talking can only do so much if there is a real chemical problem.

You said..."but he now says he is still extremely unhappy with his life" plus, he never wants to sleep with you...sounds like his depression is not under control or he is very, very stressed. Maybe a combination of the job and the little kids. Can you talk to his doctor yourself? He may not be telling her about his unhappiness and lack of sex drive.

I know you have tons of stuff to do with the little ones, but I would advise trying to let stuff go more... something I know is easier said than done. I too suffer from never wanting or being able to slow down. Maybe you can just sit with the kids when your husband comes home... yes, dirty diapers and all.... order a pizza, and skip the baths every now and then, to give yourself a break. It amazes me how much the world doesn't come to an end if the dishes don't get done or the car doesn't get washed.

I can see where he may really not have the energy to help when he gets home, but is being stressed out at the amount of work there is and is feeling guilty.

I am in no way trying to imply you are at fault; I'm sincerely just trying to give you some advice for something to try. Relaxation time with the family is more important than a clean house, homecooked meals, and clean laundry. If his sanity is at stake, I would try some forced relaxation. Well, and talk to his doctor.

Oh, and another thing I'm sure you've thought of, but, maybe his lack of interest in sex is due to being afraid of another unplanned pregnancy. That may be enough for him to put a halt to any sexual activity. Could you convince him, maybe by using a couple types of birth control or something, that pregnancy won't happen? If he's really afraid of an unplanned pregnancy, not sure much will get him in the mood.

I think its difficult for you and your husband to actually step back and "see" what is going on. Its probably a combination of situations that is making you both unhappy and the old 'blame' is rearing its ugly head. Perhaps a few thing s for you to ponder.

Are you a person that has a perfect household, do you set high standards of cleanliness and orderliness ?

Do the children have routine, are they manageable, do they go to bed at a reasonable hour ? Do they sleep in their own beds ?

What is your home life like, is it happy, is there yelling, is there laughter ? Do you think your DH looks forward to coming home at night, is it happy and loving or does he walk into a war zone ?

Do you say things that suggest that you think your DH should help more around the house?

Your DH is a successful attorney, a big job, huge responsibility, probably takes lots of his time and maybe you feel a bit resentful that he is not in family mode, very often.

Your story sounds strangley similar to a family member of mine. He is a lawyer, and his family travelled down the same road you are going down now. I think in his case, the problem was, that he didnt actually ever want to be a lawyer, and he was there because of his father's pressure. So do you think your DH is really doing what he wants to do with his life ?

Sometimes I think men feel trapped, some men have a tremendous sense of responsibility and feel they must bring in the money or else the family will collapse. Of course the reality is their unhappiness is contributing to the downfall of the family, anyway. Perhaps you DH is feeling like that ?

In any case, you sound really lonely, understandably, its hard to put on a happy face for your children when your heart is shattering into pieces. You MUST take care of yourself, is there any trusted family memeber you can talk to ?

I am not sure what else to say, just keep posting, perhaps the other genius posters, who always come up with brilliant suggestions will offer some good pearls.

Even so, talking will help you unload, if nothing else.

All the best to you.

Popi

First, to Carla35 and coolmamma- Thanks for your words. My husband is ALL about his career right now. His career is definitely priority one for him. I am barely on the priority list at all. However, no, my husband is not satisfied at work. He is searching (not just personally) for what will make him happy... he really wants to do something that is more entrepreneurial (sp?) but (like personally) can't figure out what that will be. He is tortured by the responsibility he has on himself to create something he can pass down to his kids. My husband likes and wants all the finest things in life. I'm sure he is not taking a risk to try something new because he has the pressure of providing for his family upon him. I have told him that I will support his decision to change jobs, careers, whatever, but still, he is "standing still."

Second, as far as the time I have for him... I could be in the middle of getting breakfast on the table for our two kids and food down for our two dogs (he doesn't even feed the dogs anymore- he used to!) and in the middle of me doing all that he wants me to come look at a boat he is salivating over in a magazine. No exaggeration. Lately I am trying to just stop what I am doing and go look and be polite about it. I used to probably huff and puff while looking and seem generally very annoyed that he was asking me to do that while I was clearly tied up doing stuff he could instead be helping me do. He is hung up on that kind of exchange and not seeing that I am trying to be more considerate these days.

Third, about sex. Good point that he might be frozen about the possibility of another pregnancy. It took a few years, including two rounds of IVF to conceive our first son. Our second son just happened with no intervention. Neither one of us expected that, though I was thrilled! So, sure, it is understandable that the enjoyment of making love was destroyed for him... However, I got over it! He says now that he has no interest in having sex with me. Says he loves me and wants a "normal" sex life but has no desire towards me. But his libido is normal otherwise. I have asked him what would happen if I did just put the moves on him and he said I shouldn't. Wow. Talk about devastating. I have strongly urged him to see a sex therapist with me and he says he is sick of therapy and they can't change how he feels, so what is the point?

Which brings me to my fourth point... yes, I think a lot of this is either depression still talking or he is simply done with me and just can't bring himself to verbalize it.

Finally, Popi- Thank you for responding, as well. You are very astute. From the blame game, to how he feels about coming home at night, to his feeling trapped and me feeling resentment... you are right on the money. The kids do have a bedtime routine and are in their own beds (normally) by 8pm every night. I am much more strict about it than my husband is, which is probably typically of most households where the mom stays home and the dad works out of the home all day and comes in right when mommy is trying to get the kids settled down... tough situation, timing-wise. My husband isn't very good at being firm with the kids.... he really lets them call the shots. I think that makes situations with the kids even harder on him.

Anyway, this post is long enough. Thank you so much for being here. I'm sure you understand how theraputic it is to talk to others about this. I can trust my sister and my mother enough to talk with them, but strangers can put a perspective on a situation that family cannot. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

-Sohurt (but being helped by friendly strangers- thank you!)

Sohurt,

I am glad to hear that you can talk to your mum and sister, are they any help ?

I hope you don't take my remark as being insulting...but that show "Wife Swap" comes to mind. I am often really impressed with how the families adjust to having a new "mum" in the house. Have you seen it ?

Often a taste of what life is like without mum, can be a catalyst for change of attitude.

I would feel totally insulted if my DH treated me the way yours is treating you. He doesn't seem to value you at all. Gee, how heartbreaking for you. For him to be more involved in reading about a new boat, when you are feeding his children...well he needs to take a step back and see what is going on in his life. He is terribly wrapped up in his own thoughts, and importance.

Do you think you are being a doormat ? Maybe its time to take action, I know its really hard with your children in tow, but you seem to be fairly affluent, maybe its time to investigate having a break for a while, from you DH.

I know this is a drastic step, and I know I don't fully understand your situation. But I think I can really feel the heartache, to be ignored and not listened too, its so demeaning.

Keep talking, if its best for you.

Take care.

Popi

I think that he says he doesnt "desire" you is kinda harsh.
If my husband said that to me I'd be devastated...and I'd also probably say to him,"Then why are you even with me?"

This is going sound stupid. Maybe if you got a make over,it would help him see you differently sex wise.I change my haircolor all the time,and my husband loves it cuz he says it always feels like he's with a different woman and he never gets bored.
Brunette? Try going blonde? Or blonde? Go to a redhead.
Is it at all possible he is one of those "ELVIS" types?
You know,not intrested in the woman after childbirth.
I cant believe how in 2007 so many men are STILL like this.

Maybe he sees you only as MOMMY and not as a sexual being.
Which of course is where the makeover comes into play. (not because YOU need one~but because it might be fun for you and maybe he'll see you in a new way)

Now I really wish I could help more...That must have hurt your feelings when he said that.Of course sex isnt everything in a relationship,but to not even have the physical contact?
The cuddling,the warm body to lay next to and nuzzle.
If I dont have that,I'm a mess.Does he even show affection toward you in THAT way???

I agree with you Coolmama and with all that change in hair colour you truly sound like a cool mama ! LOL

Its amazing how even a touch, a hand held can be so comforting, for anybody. I am a tactile person and to not have this in my life would cause me to shrivel up.

I think if we act the way we want to be treated, and make that clear in passive ways, then slowly things might change. Things like, for example, in the morning, I want to kiss my son, just a peck on the cheek, thats me and thats what I do. He knows this and although there is often a struggle, its done and it says "I love you, I care about you". This is such a little thing, but means so much to me, and I am sure some day to him. He may even "pay it forward" and treat his special person like that.

Just a thought.

Popi

Popi and coolmamma- You two are wonderful... thank you so much for checking in with me. I saw my therapist tonight (she started as our marriage counselor but since he doesn't go anymore...) and she guided me toward the realization that I need to realize just how much things have changed for my husband since we have had kids. I guess I am just dealing with the changes differently (better) than he is. Yes, I have a lot to do now but I don't want to be going a hundred miles an hour all the time! I will try to slow down a bit even if it means not picking up the toys in the playroom if the kids didn't help me do it before they went to bed (like tonight since I wasn't here) or not folding the laundry that is sitting in the dryer. I don't want to walk on eggshells around my husband (been doing that a long time now) but at the same time I don't want to continue to add to a stressfull evironment that for the good of all of us, should be more relaxed. I can't fix my husband's unhappiness so though I love him and want him to be happy with me and the kids, I will simply have to do things differently that will effect some changes in my life. A makeover is a fun idea. I'll have to think about that. I'm 5'3", 110 pounds, in good shape and have blonde highlights in my otherwise brown hair. I've gone from long hair to short to long over the past two years, so I really don't know what significant "change" a makeover would do. Hmmmm. Anyway, a major complain from my husband is that I've changed so much since having kids, so I think he would rather see the old me (physically the same except for a cesarean scar and boobs that nursed two babies, lol) than another different me. Seriously, though, I don't think I have changed that much- granted, my priorities are the kids, the home and him, rather than what they used to be: my job, the home and him. I was never that stressed or consumed by my job so now that I am consumed by the kids I guess he feels that I have less interest in him.... doesn't excuse the way he has treated me though!!!!!!!!!! Ugh!!!! Marital problems stink! Oh, and as far as cuddling or touching, etc... he used to do that but now it is very rare... all part of the feeling that I have that he is stuck in his disappointment that I am a different person and he doesn't seem to like it and therefore is pulling farther and farther away from me....Thanks again for being out there for me!

Sohurt,you sound quite lovely. I wasnt saying you needed a makeover.Just that sometimes it helps to make you feel better.

I'm glad you are still going to therapy even though your husband is not. It's weird but,even the simplest advice from my therapist made me feel better in knowing I was doing the right thing.People in our daily lives can give us advice,but it is usually biased somewhat,and hearing it from a non-biased person can make things clearer.

I hope your husband doesnt continue to take you for granted.You sound like the kind of wife many men would be happy to have!

I wish I had pearls of wisdom to share. My advice would have been a sexy new look, as cool mama suggested, but it sounds as if you already take good care of yourself. Perhaps a "wow" knockout type of dress if you two have anything to go to...where he notices others noticing you! Something to shake him out of the lethargic state of mind!

Be careful that you are not too "high control" where he begins to feel like he is married to his mother, etc. or that he begins to feel like less of a man...sometimes when women are too competent, too take control, men long for the needy dumb bimbo, because it makes them feel better about themselves. I know some women who are so high control, bossy, overly competent. For some odd reason, their husbands begin to seem passive and weak. I wonder how this works in the marriages. It would seem like being married to your mother, or something.

And I am not saying this is what he is struggling with, it just came to mind because of some of the women I know who take charge to an extent, that I cannot imagine that their husbands feel like the men they are. These women are calling all the shots.

Sohurt, I am glad that you are speaking to a counsellor, thats a good idea.

I was going to ask you if you remember what you and your DH where like before you married, when you where dating, before the children came along ? Where you happy then, where you different then ? What kept you together, what sort of personalities did you have then ?

There is no doubt a bout it, having children certainly change you, and its very stressful, lets face it !! So many different problems, with the little angels, and when you are wrapt up in being a good mother, as I was, and still are, you set a high standard, and berate yourself if you fall down.

You know what, it doesnt really matter that much. They are not going to expire, because we dont wash the clothes, or they are not wearing clean undies, or they went a whole day without eating fruit. Do you know what I mean ?

Maybe you need to sit down on your own, without distractions, or even put your shoes on and step out the door, and just try to remember what you used to be like. I think a lot of women, myself included, can get lost, can forget what they are actually like, that they are a person, not just a mother and wife. Try not to let these things define who you are now.

Have you been reading the post about what makes a happy marriage ? Some good points there from everybody.

Hope I am not raving too much.

You will be fine.

Hug.
Popi

I am an attorney and I do have a few comments. If your husband comes home at night and tucks the kids in and then goes back out to prepare for a trial he is not being annoying. That is part of the job. I do it, and I adore my husband. (who is not an attorney) The alternative is that the trial or deposition or whatever is then done poorly.
You married an attorney, it is a demanding job. He can afford a wife who doesn't work. That isn't true for a lot of men. It can pay well, but it does have some downsides to it.
You sound attractive--you probably could have married somebody else that came home for dinner every night at 6 ready to hang pictures or fold clothes, and sit and chat with you at night--or more likely have three beers and watch football. You might have had to work outside your home to have the same standard of living. If you get a divorce--you will be a single woman with two small children and two dogs and might have to work. Also, from a dating perspective its not the most attractive possibility.
I know its tough when kids are little, but I know women with several children who actually have dinner on the table a reasonably organized home and do give their husbands some attention when they get home, and are interested in their day.
Your question was, should you stay together or separate.
I'm saying you need to look at what your life will be like if you do get a divorce. You don't really know what any future guy will be like--or whether he will like your kids.
The guy you have now seems to be doing his job of earning a living. He's young and in a really competitive job.

I'm going to make a suggestion that will probably sound terribly "unliberated". Bear with me. I believe that marriage is not 50/50 but 100/100. Sometimes you are called upon to make ALL the sacrifices. Sometimes you have to be willing to do it all. This may be one of those times.

First, I agree that it sounds like your husband is panic stricken by the children. I can't picture him feeling all warm and fuzzy about even MORE. So he draws away sexually. No surprise there. But just having the little ones around evidently freaks him out a bit. Well, not everybody is kid friendly.

His job. Well, he picked it. But it probably IS very stressful. (So is being Mommy.) Nevertheless...sometimes you have to be the strong one.

My suggestion is this: he is a lawyer. They do negotiations. They talk and reason in order to reach conclusions. So. Sit down with him and talk. Tell him that you wonder if the whole home thing is getting to be a bit heavy. Reassure him that you don't want to have another child right away. And suggest that FOR A LIMITED TIME (that you can negotiate) you would like to relieve him of worry about the children and home so that he can concentrate on his work. You are already doing all the work there, right? This is how you get credit for it. And part of the deal is that you get to make the decisions about the house and kids. If he doesn't want to wade in it day to day, he doesn't need to be making the ultimate decisions. You want to just deal with it (completely) for him so he doesn't have to be worried. (The sense of control you will get from being the one to decide issues of household and child care will help offset any feeling of being second class.) What I'm suggesting is that you two divide your spheres of influence and control and live (hopefully) more harmoniously in parallel tracks than you are doing in a woven, semi-combined method.

Reassure him that he will not be expected to go beyond putting in a short appearance for the children (we don't want them to forget they have a Daddy). No taking out the garbage. No changing diapers. No housework. (Hey, hire somebody if necessary - you are married to a successful attorney!) He gets to be an adult. For a specific time at least. During that time you want to arrange time together (get a sitter) so that you can remember how to relate to each other as man and woman. Don't use that time to tell him everything about the children! Try to remember how you related BEFORE the kids came along. Be very clear about how you feel. If you miss the way you used to be together, tell him. If you always wished you could be even better together, explore that. He should be able to handle it...he's a lawyer after all. Sorry, I'm being facitious. He is a scared boy who is probably terrified of adult responsibilities like parenthood. Maybe he'll grow into it if he can do it gradually and learn that you are strong and capable and that he can count on you so he doesn't have to be responsible for it all. (Might be interesting to learn about his parents' marriage dynamic here. Hrm...)

What I'm saying is that this may be one of those moments when you can step up and give to your spouse. (Hey. You made those promises during the wedding ceremony, right?) If this doesn't work, you can always drop back and punt. But for now I think it might help to make a very honest, very generous, very selfless gesture. What have you got to lose?

Could the meds he take be causing some of the sexual side effects as well?

Also, do you have any women friends that you go to lunch etc, without the kids? You need a break too! Maybe you could do that once a week?

I remember seeing a recent mag with the cover about something married, kids, no sex. I think its fairly common, not that you want it to stay that way, but just know lots of couples go through this.

Sooooo much I could respond to from all of your posts or say in terms of what has been going on around here the past few days.... not enough time to do that, so here's where I think my husband and I stand:

I have, despite everything I have put up with and gone through with him, decided in the past two weeks or so that I WANT to hold on to the hope that we can get past all this. Not back to where we were before kids, but move forward in a positive, still married, direction. I am willing to acknowledge my role in his unhappiness (though not take all the blame as he seems to think is the case!!!) and am willing and eager to have a fresh start and work together to make this a happier environment. I have a babysitter coming one morning a week so I can get to the gym and run errands without two kids with me. (Working on my needs.) I hired a babysitter for Sat evening in the hopes he would want to go out with me for a few hours. (Working on our needs.) I have not stopped and will continue to take care of and do things for him to show him I love him and that he is important to me. Despite two years of frustration, disappointment, sadness, and anger, I love him and believe he is a good person, a good father (getting better very recently) and the person I was intended to live my life with. Hopefully, we can get back on the track to a happy life.

That said, here's where I think he is: he is stuck on his hurt. He is paralyzed in a position of denial and selfishness, too. He blames me for his unhappiness, he blames our situation for his inability to move ahead professionally, and he says that if we weren't together he wouldn't be on heavy duty medication so, in effect, he blames me for being on psychotropic drugs, too. He says I don't make him feel important anymore. That he is not a priority to me. (I apologized for making him feel that way as it was never my intention, and reminded him of all the things I do because he and our marriage is important to me, but apparently those are not enough...He cannot tell me what more I could do, though, either... paralyzed.) He understands the responsibility of being a father in that he tells me often that the boys and I will always be taken care of. I believe he loves me, I believe that he doesn't want to be hurting me, and I would love to be convinced that he is holding on to some hope that things can get better between us, which perhaps is a tiny part of why he IS still here. But I think he is stuck on the hurt he feels and for some infuriating reason, is unable to make any moves or show a desire to move forward with me. Doesn't think starting fresh is realistic. Doesn't sound like he is willing to give me a chance to show him that things can be better, that I will be supportive in his career changing decisions (I've ALWAYS voiced my support- but he isn't hearing me!!!) and that as the kids get older things will be "easier" (never EASY being a parent!!) and it will be easier for us to have time together...

I hired a sitter for Sat in the hopes he would be interested in spending a few hours with me. (How else can we reconnect unless we start spending a little bit of time together and do some things in which we have common interest?) He did leave the house with me but we eventually started talking about us (I guess the one good thing you can say is that we DO talk) and he pretty much said he came with me because he felt he had no choice. I told him he has choices, and encouraged him to make some. Choose to try new things, choose to try to reconnect, choose to start fresh, choose to leave, whatever! But he is just standing still!! I can't help him feel better ("fix" him) but he isn't doing anything different to feel better and I can't fix our marriage by myself. How sad is this situation!!! I want to be happy with him, and I think he wants to be happy with me, but it will take effort from both of us! How do you get someone to move who seems unable to move? Or how do I continue to exist in this situation when it so affects my spirit? Where the heck do I go from here?

Sohurt, I think what you are doing sounds really right. Good for you - you are showing an unselfish, positive willingness to go the extra mile.

That said, your frustration (perfectly understandable) does show. I think one of the most hopeful elements in the whole situation is that your dh IS involved in therapy - I hope it will be very successful but it does take time. Depression is so very hard to live through or to live with. That inability to move forward sounds SO typical! As frustrating as it is to you, it is probably just that dark and hopeless to him. Have you considered some help for yourself as you go through this difficult patch with your husband? Perhaps his therapist could recommend someone for you to help you stay strong and sane through this hard time - to give you some support in knowing that it is not your fault? Eventually, it may be helpful for the two of you to see a counselor together who can help you understand and work out a good solution.

I sure hope things work out for you!

For Lindakimy- Thanks so much for responding. My husband and I used to go to a marriage counselor, but he is no longer willing as he says it is not working for him. I continue to see the therapist by myself, for myself. He is required to see his psychiatrist periodically because he is on heavy-duty mood stabilizers and meds for depression and anxiety. But he is unwilling to see the psychiatrist more often than the every five or six week intervals at which he sees her now. My husband expresses to me that his unhappiness is not depression. He's just unhappy with the way our relationship is now. I say, he might be unhappy, but it is the depression that is causing him to be unable to move. I read a great quote recently and shared it with him: I can feel guilty about the past, apprehensive about the future, but only in the present can I act. The ability to be in the present moment is a major component of mental wellness. (Maslow)

Sohurt, I get the impression that you are doing whatever you can to save your marriage and also to save your sanity. You have to do that (simple as it seems; hard as it is). Ultimately, you will always live with YOU. Do try everything you can for as long as you can to love and support and work things out with your husband. But don't let him destroy you. Sometimes we have to move on in self defense and I don't think there is any shame in that. Why let two be destroyed rather than one? But no one can tell you when the time comes to draw a line and move on. You will have to know. But if you stay aware and connected, you will know.

If your therapist is helping you - HURRAH! Keep going and hope for the best. Ask for real help there - a good therapist should be able to provide some help in dealing with a troubled partner. Give it all you got. If you should NOT be able to make this marriage work, you don't want to look back and say, "If only..."

But eventually something has to give. Life is too short to spend with a partner who blames you for every negative thing. Either it isn't true and you should not have to take that abuse. Or it is true, and you shouldn't stay and abuse him. If you give it your best shot and you can't help your husband then it may be the kindest thing to move on. Maybe there will be someone who can. Maybe he really would be happier alone.

Most important - you have children to consider. It doesn't seem that your husband has a great bond with them but they will always need their father. You may find yourself in the position of raising them - doing all the work - yourself while making it possible for him to have a relationship with them. As hard as it is (and I know just how hard it is) do that for them.

Well, 9 months later and things are still the same around here... we are still married, but (as far as I am concerned) unhappily. We went to a new therapist together in February and it was sort of determined that my husband has something called a "Madonna/Whore complex"... that is, since I become a mother, he no longer views me as an appropriate sexual partner. Having sex with me would be dirty and wrong. But his libido is not affected: that is, he thinks I am attractive, he just doesn't want to have sex with me. However, OTHER women would interest him, sexually. What the hell did I get myself into? He is unwilling to see any more therapists but has also done nothing to change our situation: a sexless marriage between a medicated manic depressive (him) and a totally frustrated but technically healthy individual (me). I continue to see a therapist, and she is helping me cope with my situation, but I am at a loss regarding this Madonna/Whore complex thing and am completely sad regarding the loss I feel (no happiness in this marriage, but I love the guy and WANT us to be happy together- I feel the loss of the happiness we used to have with each other) Any thoughts? Any experience with the M/W complex?

Hi, sohurt. I just read thru this thread. From what you say, it sure does seem you are giving it your best.

Did your therapist mention to you that DH might have a W/M complex? Men might all have a little bit of it to some extent. He seems to be rather selfish. Raising kids is a normal part of all marriages. They take a lot of time and energy. Can you ask your therapist if he might have a personality disorder? I took this excert from http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-5-2002-19793.asp. The following explains the view they might have on women:

The Holy Whore
The Hunter Parasite
The Frustrating Object of Desire
Uniqueness Roles

The narcissist divides all women to saints and whores. He finds it difficult to have sex ("dirty", "forbidden", "punishable", "degrading") with feminine significant others (spouse, intimate girlfriend). To him, sex and intimacy are mutually exclusive rather than mutually expressive propositions. Sex is reserved to "whores" (all other women in the world). This division provides for a resolution of his constant cognitive dissonance ("I want her but...", "I don't need anyone but..."). It also legitimizes his sadistic urges (abstaining from sex is a major and recurrent narcissistic "penalty" inflicted on female "transgressors"). It also tallies well with the frequent idealization-devaluation cycles the narcissist goes through. The idealized females are sexless, the devalued ones "deserving" of their degradation (sex) and the contempt that, inevitably, follows thereafter.

The name of the article is "Do Narcissists Hate Women?" Although it may not be what is wrong with your DH it is an interesting read. It goes into depth as regard to this from of Personality Disorder.

My opinion, if you meet up with one of these guys, run....for....the.....hills!

Does your husband accept that he has this problem ?

Do you think you are in physical danger ?

Explore your options, you sound like you are trapped.

I feel for you.

Keep talking.

Tenderchichi and Popi- Thanks for your responses. I have not yet read the link you suggested, tenderchichi, but I will. What you wrote sounds very much like what I am dealing with. Popi, at no time have I ever felt like I was in physical danger. Thank you for your concern!!! My therapist suggested I take two months and try to eliminate all emotion from conversations my husband and I have. We just can't communicate because he wants to avoid all emotion and I am so frustrated the emotion comes out much of the time. After a few months, I can see how it is going and urge him again to join me for marital counselling. If ever a couple has needed it..... man, I never would have predicted I would be dealing with this!!!!!! Stay tuned....

Tenderchichi- I read the link you gave. VERY interesting.... Many of the descriptions are dead on, others don't apply at all, but the last paragraph or two are exactly my husband:

"Many of them (the "borderline" Narcissists) cannot conceive of a life in one place with one set of people, doing the same thing, in the same field with one goal within a decades-old game plan. To them, this is death. They are most terrified of boredom and whenever faced with its daunting prospect, they inject drama into their life, or even danger. This is the only way some of them can feel alive.

The Narcissist is a lonely wolf. He is a shaky platform, indeed, on which to base a family, or future plans."

I now have another way to describe my husband: Narcissist. (With a heaping helping of M/W Complex.)

PLEASE let me know if you stumble across anything that suggests this is something that can change, be worked on, be "cured".... Thanks for being here...

Hi sohurt-

We are not shrinks and really can't diagnose anyone with that personality disorder as explained in the link.

I think the article was depicting it in its most extreme form....as pathological. Many people may share some of those traits to a lessor degree.

There are two forms by the way: Somatic and Cerebral. The cerebrals rely upon their brain to extract NS (supply) like vampires.

The somatics use their bodies to punish women. They despise intimacy and emotions. People who express those traits are viewed as weak. Their wives, families and significant others are merely the backdrop to which they wish the world to view them

Their inner life is a vast wasteland of anger, jealousy, rage and vindictiveness.

They care only about how it looks and not how it is. Their egoes are poorly established so they must seek a constant supply of adulation, wealth and prominence.

One way is to conquer and I do mean conquer, women and then tossing them off like yesterdays garbage after they have extracted whatever it is they get out of intimacy. They smoke them like cigarettes and then stomp them out. Yuck!

You never know when you might run across one of these zombies masquerading as human beings. They are at best, psycho/sociopaths and can be found in all walks of life.

The Living Dead!

Again, just to give an update for those of you who tend to keep looking for people who have posted before.... unfortunately, same old, same old here. For three and a half years, since our first child was 6 months old, my husband and I have had an unhappy marriage. We were in marital counselling two different times, but only for a total of 6 sessions together... not enough to be effective. Husband (suffering from manic depression and anxiety) still sees his shrink every three months so the prescriptions don't run out, but that little bit of therapy is not nearly enough. And, since he feels it won't be helpful, he refuses to go back to a marriage counselor with me. I believe he loves me and doesn't want to divorce, but that doesn't feel like enough for me anymore. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me, in every sense of the word (husband seems to suffer from the Madonna/Whore complex). I love my husband, but he isn't doing enough to make our marriage different, let alone good. He works like crazy to provide for his family financially, and he feels that is his role, period. I appreciate how hard he works (a lot of it self-imposed; he is an attorney) but is that enough? I say no. He does not meet my needs. If we divorced, he would still provide for me financially, but I might be able to find someone else who could be a more loving and devoted partner..... but we have two little boys, and deciding the fate of a marriage when children are involved is never easy.... thanks for listening....

I have no advice for you, just to second I know hard that decision is to come to. My situation is different, but I am also in a marriage that I feel does not meet dh or my needs, we are both unhappy (me more than him) and it's the decision to 'split' and how it will affect our kids, that is what keeps me here (in sadness). Warm wishes, good luck, keep on keepin' on.

Sohurt,
I'm curious, before you and your DH had children, did you feed his ego quite a bit? It does sound like your focus has shifted to the kids, which it has to, but did he count on you to prop up what might have been an over grown ego? I can't tell you much about the M/W complex; I wanted to have kids as much or more than my wife. I have to remind myself not to run people over on the way home from work in order to get a few extra minutes with them. I'm all too aware that someday soon they will be more interested in spending time with friends than with us, so I want to soak up as much as I can now before it's too late. Do you have somewhere you could go visit for a while? Maybe some time alone would help him look at things differently, and take some action one way or another.

Nofaves and lovinghusband, thank you for your recent posts. In response to lhusband, I would say no, I don't think I fed his ego prior to kids. Maybe he would say different?? Actually, I was a working woman prior to having kids, and we had what I would think was a normal relationship- we took vacations, we went out to dinner, we had sex (not often, but we had it!!) We used to joke that we were the "coolest people we know". We felt connected, for sure. Now we don't. It is such healthy thought to express what you did regarding the kids. My husband loves the kids, that I do not doubt. And he is a super worrier regarding their safety. However, he does not spend much time with them, and gets immediately frustrated when they are acting up (they are 4 and 2!! very energetic!!). I bet time apart would help him. He has even mentioned that. However, I think it would be a temporary fix. Reality would eventually set in. Sadly, I do believe we are headed for separation and divorce. To that end, I have scheduled a meeting with an attorney on 1/10/08. I want to be prepared and able to handle whatever I'm in store for.....

Sohurt,
Sorry to hear that. I do wish you and your kids the best with whatever happens.