I think part of the problem is, kids aren't taught there are consequences for bad behavior. I suppose this will bring up the old debate spanking vs not spanking. but I think there is nothing wrong with a kid having some fear of getting consequences from doing something they know is wrong. I'm not talking about beating, but a good swat on the butt when needed will make them remember not to do that deed again. Even more than that, consistency and carrying out a threat of a spanking or time out is very important. A parent shouldn't threaten over and over again....then not do what they say they will do. Kids need and want structure. JMO Dottie

There is a huge difference between a spanking and a beating. Sadly some parents don't know the difference. Disciplining is a must. The parents that don't make their children or themselves acountable for what they do hurts everyone. Children raised this way have a difficult life in adulthood. They think they are owed everything. Our three kids knew they were accountable for what they did good or bad. They behaved at school. They behaved in public. Years ago I took all 3 children to an ice store and when we were finished an older lady came up to me and said, "My you have well behaved children." I thanked her and was so very proud. I can tel you firsthand it does not take much to teach our little ones manners. We spanked but not very often.. Our children are now adults, have good jobs and children of their own. It is not what you do for your children but what you teach them that makes them ready for the big world ahead.

Jasdip, your story reminds me of when I was in first grade ( I am now 61 ) and I was sent out in the hall for talking. I was not the one doing the talking. I never forgave the teacher. Kinda funny thinking about it now..

A friend and I were just talking about this the other day! I hear more and more parents making the statement "She/He (referring to their child) won't LET ME! That's been going on for a LONG time! Neighbor of mine use to say her 3yr. old DD wouldn't "let her" give her medicine,put clothes/shoes on her! What's up with THAT? You got a 3yr. old and an ADULT woman..and the 3yr. old is in charge? More and more kids are being put "in charge"!!!

Don't even get me started. In the Winter months I work as a substitute para professional (teachers aid) in the local school system. somedays I just shake my head at the lack of respect that the kids have. There are no consequences for bad behavior.

Ron

THIS is the biggest problem that people blame the schools for.

New schools, more pay for teachers, more equipment...none of these solve the dwindling graduation rates and college admissions.''

Children need to be sent to school, taught respect for teachers and sit down, listen and learn. When a child is raised by parents who don't respect and value education and the educators....no amount of money will solve the problem.

My DF always said if you promise something to a child, always keep your promise, whether it is a spanking or an ice cream cone. I followed that with my children.

I don't remember my DD ever needing a spanking, but my DS earned a few! I never spanked for a first "offence". I gave him the talking to and promised that if it happened again he would be spanked. And yes, he got "second offense" spankings several times.

I remember an instance when he was outside playing with his trucks. He was 5 years old. I went to the porch and told him to come in for lunch. He said he wasn't hungry. I told him I didn't ask him if he was hungry, I told him to come in for lunch. He came in. Later my elderly neighbor, who was outside and heard what I said to DS, complimented me on the way I handled that. DS has always been a responsible adult.

It is sad to see the way children disrespect their parents now. The fault is with the parents.

Sue

I agree, a good swat or two on the butt doesn't hurt one bit. I got a lot worse than that, and I turned out okay. I never whipped my daughters. But they all got a swat or two when warrented. They all turned out good too. Never gave me any problems.
Leslie

I spank my kids sometimes if they need it. I've found other adults who think it's mean to spank or use certain other disciplinary actions. Many of these are the same people who will give the kids a piece of candy if they misbehave. I have a problem with that.

I try to raise my children in the best way that I can. I don't allow them to wear the disrespectful t-shirts with the "I hate my sister" or "My dog ate my homework and it made him sick." I think the best way to get respectful behaviour from children is to model it. That's where I see a lot of parents letting their children down.

I'm old & know times have changed but all my parents/teachers & other adults had to do was give me 'that look'to quell misbehaviour.

And for certain my own kids would've been taken to the car for a swat on the bottom if they'd actd up like I see kids do today.

A friend once told me "I can't keep him from doing...."
I ask, "Would you let him play on a busy highway? Acting as if I was crazy, she said "Of course NOT!"

"Well, you control other behaviour like you do that...you take charge!"

Suzi

The one thing a competent person of authority must possess is the ability to know which discipline works on which person. On some, paddle their ass, they'll hop up and do it again. It's not a consequence to them. Often for them a "standing in the corner", grounding or something else is more of a "punishment" for them. Some will sit in a corner for hours and be happy! So that's where you need to differentiate.

And, no, of course a spanking doesn't have to be a beating, nor does it have to constitute abuse. And I don't care what anybody says, it's far better to slap that kid's hand when they're reaching for the burner to try to negotiate with them. And occasionally, yes, they will have to get a burned hand from not listening too! They'll listen better next time!

Setting a good example is so important and so lacking. We raise our kids to think calling in sick, cheating on taxes, lying to everyone is proper.

And parents who think that buying their kids' affection or showering them with material things to make up for lack of time spent with them, well, they should be jailed for child abuse.

You've made a very good point in your first paragraph, cynic--well said. As for your last paragraph, unfortunately the parents will find out too late that they have encouraged their kids to become the sort of people no one likes or trusts. But, those folks are often the ones who can't figure out what went wrong.

Hey cynic,
That's so funny when you mentioned what works on one may not work on another. I could amuse myself for hours sitting on the floor behind the lazyboy, reading my books, colouring, just rearranging my binders, etc. I love paper! So punish me by putting me in a corner, but give me a paper and pencil! LOL

I always wanted to be a teacher all the time as a kid, just because of using paper and reading books, but then I realized that kids aren't my strong point. I would be SO upset when my mom would get me a doll for Christmas and my brother got some farm equipment. Not very maternal, in other words.

After teaching for 30 1/2 years, I took early retirement at age 54. Total teacher burnout. Was MY time to retire.

Cynic, I couldn't agree with you more..I have one of those kids you could beat up one side and down the other and it means nothin.
Then I have another..that even the "thought" of getting a spanking..sends him into a tizzy..and very very rarely does he choose something that would warrant that concequence.

And the third is somewhere inbetween the other two..

There are some teachers who just shouldn't teach as well...My kids were taught to respect their teachers...but when a teacher tells my son who is Bi-Polar, ADHD that all he's ever gonna do is work at McDonalds...I get a bit irate...or because after spending his hard earned money for lunch, he's wolfing it down in 13 minutes because of the short lunch time...then hurrying back to class and gets clothedlined by a teacher sticking out his arm...well there is something wrong with this...I am so over our school system...Teachers need to have to earn the right to teach...not be given tenure just because they've been there awhile...It's a different world we live in today...parenting has been the hardest job of my life and it wont be over till the day I die...somedays I wish I wouldn't have had them...most days I love them to death...but in this world we live in now...It's really hard...I like to think I taught my kids manners and respect...I guess when they get out there in that big world...we'll see...

I don't think you need to spank to show who's in charge. I do think rules should be established and there should be consequences. I have taught preschool for 10 years and it has amazed and saddened me how many parents have been afraid to discipline because they don't want to be the "bad guy". They've actually asked ME to say something to their children because they admit they can't. They think they need to be their children's friends. I happen to love Love and Logic.

Sheryl

YUp, the main difference is spanking and an all out beating. We got the latter. It was awful. Mostly over minor stuff. I don't wish parents like mine on anybody!

Moni

I'm with country bumpkin. I teach preschool and it never ceases to amaze me how many kids conrol their parents. "He threw up during the night, but he really wanted to come to school today", etc. And the way some of them talk back to their parents and grandparents is apalling. And these adults take it. We don't tolerate it at school, and the kids learn what is acceptable and what isn't. I think some caregivers are just too tired to take the time to deal with things, so they let the kids run the show. It scares me to think these kids are going to be in charge of things when I am old and gray. (or older and grayer )

The tenure thing is just another example of unions and the problems they cause. But that's a whole different topic and bound to get some people angry.

I remember the school lunch thing. In high school there was technically a "25 minute" lunch break, but out of that would be the time to get to the lunchroom, wait in line to get your lunch, eat your lunch, bus the dishes and get your stuff to go to the next class. And lets see, I had a 450 member graduating class so roughly that many to do each lunch period since there was 3 grades in the school, and granted, some brought their lunch and some didn't eat lunch but still a lot of kids to move through. And those cooks didn't move too fast either. You do the math on how long it takes to serve them. The ones that got there late, who would be on the opposite side of the building, really had to wolf and run. To this day I wolf down my food if I don't concentrate to relax and take my time. That really annoys me to this day.

Many children today are not being 'parented' by anyone. Mom and (maybe) Dad only see their kids for a few minutes a day, when they are rushing off to work and when they return tired from work. Yes, there have always been some families where parents worked long hours, but in the not-so-distant past Grandma or Auntie was at home doing some care-giving, raising the kids.

In the area where my DIL teaches a tiny minority of the children are living with a close relation. Many go 'home' to an array of ever-changing adults or foster homes. Some who 'go home to Mom' go home to Mom, her current live-in and drug and alcohol 'parties' all night.

In the area where we raised our DS rows of Mercedes and Jags were at the daycare as early as six a.m. to drop off children before Mom and Dad commuted into the city to their law or investment offices. Parents bragged that at *their* daycare the ratio of children to caregivers was 'only six to one'. If parents' jobs required a lot of travel, there was often a non-English-speaking housekeeper. In the park I would meet three-year-olds fluent in Spanish or Polish, their English halting.

'Hired help' is no substitute for parenting. It's not the same *care* or child *raising*.

Many children today grow up from infancy in group 'care'-giving settings. Then they go to 'pre'-school starting at three or even younger. Grammar school teachers who started teaching 'parented' children had to adjust to a very different kind of child, one who had learned to act out to be noticed or who was unable to think independently of the group or teacher.

As for discipline, I cannot see how striking a child teaches anything except that big people can hit smaller ones. Shunning, the withdrawl of approval by a loved one, motivates most kids to behave appropriately. Of course, first they have to LOVE and feel loved!