Lou (hawk307) - I live in Kansas - wheat country - and prefer flour from Kansas mills or mill my own. I find Hudson Cream Unbleached All-Purpose Flour (milled in Stafford Co., KS) one of the best, although I rarely use it now. KA/AP (13g protein) is unbleached. Being unbleached would put it in a better position than bleached National Brands (Gold Medal and Pillsbury 12+g protein) in my books. The information about protein levels is from CookWise by Shirley O. Corriher. The only use I've found for bleached flour is sprinkled in my garden to kill bugs. I wasn't all that impressed with KA/AP when I tried it years ago - mostly the price. Much of KA flour is milled in Kansas (in Topeka I believe). All their white whole wheat flour is milled in KS - I read a Kansas State University press release about that. It took until the last few years for them to buy shelf space in the grocery stores around here. We had lots of other excellent choices when it came to flour before high-priced KA. -Grainlady

Kari & Clare - Kari - My sources for wheat: 1. locally grown hard winter red and white wheat (free or very cheap, but usually NOT chemical-free or organic) 2. Heartland Mill, Marienthal, KS - organic grains 3. Bob's Red Mill - soft white wheat (and other grains) 4. Wal-Mart - Hard Spring White Wheat - Prairie Gold (from Wheat Montana - chemical-free) - they also carry hard red wheat Bronze Chief. Wal-Mart has only recently started carrying Wheat Montana wheat around here - $5 for 25-pounds. Mills: 1. (A very old) Whisper Mill - which is an electric impact mill (now known as a Wonder Mill) - this mills most grains/seeds/beans into a very fine flour - fine flour = fine bread, coarse flour = coarse bread. 2. Marga Mulino Flaker Mill - for cracked grain, flakes, and coarse farina (for cooked cereal) 3. Corona Corn Mill - for coarsely milled grain and corn meal. 4. Porkert Seed Grinder - for small seeds, such as amaranth, poppy seeds, teff, etc. 5. Bosch Coffee/Spice - for milling flaxmeal. 6. Family Grain Mill - a hand mill, that also has an electric-powered motor to run it as well, that has a lot of attachments available for other uses (meat grinders, flakers, etc.). This is my back-up mill. You have to mill the flour twice to get a reasonably fine grind of flour. Source for recipes: I suggest you start by substituting unbleached/bleached flour in your favorite recipes with a portion of wholegrain flour. There are all kinds of books out there on whole wheat baking. I have a collection of 28 beans, seeds, and grains that I use milled and whole - included in that, several types of wheat. I develop many of my own recipes because I use really "odd" ingredients, including gluten-free baking. Here's a few books I like from the large selection in my library: RECIPES FROM THE OLD MILL (Baking with Whole Grains) by Sarah E. Myers and Mary Beth Lind WHOLE WHEAT COOKERY (Treasures from the Wheat Bin) by Howard and Anna Ruth Beck THE AMAZING WHEAT BOOK by LeArta Moulton THE SPLENDID GRAIN (all kinds of seeds and grains) by Rebecca Wood WHEAT COOKIN' MADE EASY by Pam Crockett --------------- Clare - Wheat comes in HARD (strong/high-gluten) and SOFT (weak/low-gluten) varieties. Whole Wheat Pastry Flour is milled from (low-gluten) soft red wheat, just like you thought. It's best used just as you described - in baked goods where you don't want a lot of gluten development - for the most part, anything other than yeast breads. Low-gluten bleached flour would include White Lily and Martha White - which are great for quick breads, pastry, etc. I purchase soft white wheat berries from Bob's Red Mill to mill into whole wheat pastry flour. I also use freshly-milled spelt and some rye, barley, and triticale for baked goods that need low-gluten flour, as an alternative to soft wheat flour. All wheat has a protein level that determins if the grain is hard or soft. Even in the same field you'll find protein (gluten) level differences from one side of the field to the other. If a portion of the field is shaded(usually at the edge of the field) and/or there's a low place in the field that retains water after a rain, the wheat that receives a lot of water/shade will usually have a low-protein count. Even though hard wheat may have been planted, the protein level is also determined by the amount of rainfall, and other factors. Soft wheats are characteristicly plump (a lot of endosperm), while hard wheat varieties (especially winter wheat) is small, wrinkled, and very hard when you bite it. When soft whole wheat is milled, the flour is exactly that - very soft to the touch. Hard whole wheat is much 'grittier' - due to the higher percentage of bran to endosperm ratio. All bleached/unbleached flour is milled from a combination of wheat protein levels to formulate the amount of protein for the type of flour needed. High-protein wheat is used for yeast breads, a combination of hard and soft wheat is milled for all-purpose flour, and pastry flour is milled from soft wheat. There are also fields of extremely high protein wheats (15% or more), but they are mixed with lower protein wheat to make flour. I've used some wheat that was 16% protein, and it took forever (lots of kneading and a very long fermentation) to develop the gluten in bread - 12-13% protein level is much better for yeast bread. Too much gluten will make a tough loaf of bread. The highest protein level wheat is durum wheat. Unlike hard red and white wheat varieties which are used for yeast breads, durum wheat is used in pasta. I mill durum for whole wheat pasta - NOT red or white varieties of wheat. Commercial whole wheat pasta is made with wholegrain durum wheat. The elements in wheat protein that we call "gluten" are actually a gluten group - GLUTENINS and GLIADINS. Glutenins provide the elasticity quality that allows bread dough to expand. Gliadins contribute to the viscosity and extensibility of bread dough. Red and white wheat varieties have a dominance of GLUTENINS and less GLIADINS. Durum wheat has a dominance of GLIADINS and less GLUTENINS. Therefore, even though durum wheat has a high protein level, it's unsuited for bread making, due to the type of protein. -Grainlady

Tupperware, or other food-grade plastic containers will work fine, but the problem comes from any natural oils from grains (or oils/fats from food that has been stored in them). Oil/fat bond with plastic, not just coat the surface. It is impossible to remove once it has bonded to the plastic, and over time those same oils will go rancid. Have you ever smelled the inside of plastic containers that have been in storage (especially if the lid was left on it), or if they haven't been used on a regular basis, and at one time contained something that had fat/oil in it for a long period of time? That "smell" is from rancid oils/fats that are bonded to plastic. Scrubbing, bleaching, and other cleaning methods, can't remove it once it's bonded to plastic. It's imbedded in the plastic. We have recycled 50-gallon plastic barrels that we use for rain barrels outside. These barrels contained olives, and 9-years later you can still smell what was shipped in them, even though we have power-washed them before we connect them each spring, and cleaned them with a number of cleaning compounds. The fat is bonded to the plastic. This is why in home food storage classes I strongly suggest people NOT use recycled plastic buckets for bulk food storage that contained frosting (or other fatty food). The fat found in the frosting bonds to the plastic. Whatever you store inside the recycled bucket can eventually absorb the rancid smell. Then there are concerns with BPA in plastic containers. But the container is a personal choice. Keeping the barley in an airtight container in a cool dark storage area are the prime concerns. I store hundreds and hundreds of pounds of grains/seeds/beans alone, plus other dry goods that are jarred and vacuum-sealed. I have never had a pantry pest infestation in the time I've used vacuum-sealed canning jars for dry storage (1986). Nor have any jars smelled rancid. A portion of my kitchen pantry shelves are only 6" apart. I store my jars horizontally on those shelves, one jar deep, with the lid showing. I have painted chalkboard paint on the lids so I can mark what the contents are. I can also take the wide-mouth lid that was on a large jar, and as the contents of the jar are used, place it in a smaller jar and still use the same lid. This is more efficient storage than lining jars 2 or 3 deep in the vertical position. If I use a plastic screw-top lid (made for canning jars), I can write on those with Chalk Markers (liquid "chalk" - available at Hobby Lobby) and wash it off. You can also write on steel canning lids with Chalk Markers and wash it off. -Grainlady

If you are using red wheat, the flavor and color of the finished product would be improved by using white wheat varieties for your 100% whole wheat baking. The genetics that determine the bran color also make red wheat bitter-tasting. There are 3 genes that determine bran color and the "grandfather" of all red wheat varieties, Turkey Red, has all three genes. Most of today's red wheat varieties only contain one or two of those genes, and they are not as dark or as bitter as the old varieties of red wheat. White wheat, on the other hand, doesn't contain those genes, which results in a light bran color and a sweeter, more mild-tasting, wheat. Soaking the flour by using long preferments, sponge method, soaked flour method, or using a starter for a longer overall fermentation making a naturally-leavened bread, will also alter the bitterness AND the finished color of red wheat (even making it lighter in color). Using a fast bread making method like the direct dough method, won't give you these results. So for 100% whole wheat bread, use an older bread-making method, not a fast modern bread making method. Try adding 1/8 t. of citric acid per loaf (or even Fruit Fresh will work since it contains citric and ascorbic acid) to aid in the gluten structure of 100% whole wheat bread. The glutathione in the germ has a negative effect on the gluten bonds. Adding an acid, as I believe plllog mentioned in the other whole wheat bread thread, will help prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down, and it will also help repair gluten bonds that have already been broken. The addition of the acid (which can also be from lemon juice, orange juice, or vinegar, but in much larger amounts since citric acid is 9-times stronger than lemon juice) will also help promote yeast growth and sustain the leavening. If you are making naturally leavened whole wheat bread (made with a starter - aka sourdough starter or old dough method), it is already acidic enough and does NOT require the addition of an acid. Adding an acid is a great dough improver which is used by professional bakers, along with other dough improvers like this: along with vitamin C for better gluten development; an egg yolk for antistaling (from the lecithin in the yolk) and better gluten development; 1/4 t. ground fenugreek, rosemary, or cinnamon for enhanced yeast activity and better baking qualities; 1 T. sugar to feed yeast; and 1 t. barley malt syrup, which contains enzymes to convert flour to yeast food (or you can sprout your own wheat and dry it in a low-temperature dehydrator and mill it for malted wheat flour for the additional enzymes - I posted this information recently - it doesn't need to be barley malt, it can be wheat malt). Yeast bread made with 100% whole wheat flour does NOT have the extensibility that you normally get using white flour (bleached or unbleached) or a mixture of white and whole wheat flour, so only allow this bread to rise to just under "double". Use a dough rising bucket so you can judge how much the dough actually rises. Don't use a timed rise since dough rises according to the strength of the yeast, ambient temperature, and amount of humidity - and can't tell time AT ALL! If you place 1 quart of dough into the dough rising bucket, you will know it has "doubled" in bulk when it reaches the 2-quart mark (as an example). And as you already know, it takes longer if it's cold than if it's warm. But anything more than "doubled" in bulk (and preferable just UNDER double) and you are essentially over-proofing the dough which will affect the rise and oven-spring. You can help compensate for this by adding some vital wheat gluten to the dough, but I never found it necessary unless I was also using a large portion of low-gluten flour (like rye, spelt, einkorn, etc.) along with the whole wheat flour. I never added vital wheat gluten to 100% whole wheat bread recipes. Although it may be necessary if the wheat you are using has a low protein count. As an enriched dough, you may find better results panning it rather than making free-form loaves. Well-hydrated lean doughs are better for free-form loaves. In the mixing process, when do you add the fat - early or late? Adding the fat early in the process will "shorten" the gluten by coating the flour and the gluten absorb less hydration, and you will get a shorter, more compact, crumb structure. By adding the fat later, after the gluten has developed, it will allow more gluten development and a more open structure, and a high-rising dough. If you are mixing your dough in a bread machine, add the fat at the add-in beep. If you are making the dough by hand, you can wait until the last few minutes of kneading to add the fat. What to expect when you retard the dough. There are positive and negative characteristics to chilling the dough (retarding) in the refrigerator. It develops more flavor and a slightly more open texture. But chilling also affects the rise and oven-spring (negatively), and to compensate for this, after chilling, you can dissolve 1/2 t. of yeast in a few tablespoons of warm water and knead this into the dough before shaping since chilling dough also retards the action of the yeast, and even kills some of the yeast. Using this method may give you the extra loft you are looking for, rather than thinking it needed to rise more, which may actually have been over-proofing your dough. -Grainlady