I should add the home will be 2800 sqft, but contains a lot of volume due to vaulted ceilings in most rooms.

If you don't have access to natural gas (which is annoying considering all the natural gas Pennsylvania is producing) then my recommendation would be a high efficiency heat pump with back up electric strip. Take a look at the Carrier Greenspeed heat pump. It has very good performance at low outside temperatures.

I would avoid having a propane gas furnace as back up. It is not worth the cost in my opinion. However if you have your heart set on having a gas stove and oven, then the propane back up may be a viable option. You could also use it for a hot water heater. If you think a gas line will be available some time in the future, then this would also strengthen the case of having propane as a back up.

You should also investigate geothermal, but you are not going to like the initial price. The inverter type heat pumps like the Greenspeed is a better choice for most people.

Is your new home in an area that has frequent winter power outages?

Without NG, a whole house standby generator would require propane and the supporting infrastructure and cost.

IF oil (or propane) was your backup heat, a small portable electric generator powered by either gasoline, or, as I do, propane in 20# bottles, can provide power to operate your oil or propane furnace.

Yea wouldn't it be nice to have nat gas...but alas there is none on my land. We do not cook by propane either but using propane for hot water is a plus over electric water heaters. And we do need a decent whole house generator due to the unreliable power companies in this state so propane is the way to go for that I think. I was leaning more toward heat pump with propane furnace. I like to set the heat back in the day when no one is home and that as i understand it is not good for heat pumps and will cause the electric heating element to come on more than one wants. But once the house is up at temperature there is no reason to blast a furnace along when a heat pump can more efficiently keep the temperature steady when someone is home.

Aversion to heat pump set-backs is based on historic characteristics of the controls. You should be able to use set-backs without hitting the resistance back-up if it is set up right. If you have an inconsistent, unpredictable schedule, that becomes a problem. On the other hand, maybe less so with the ability to control the system remotely becoming readily available.

Super efficient HVAC may be a waste of money in a super-tight new home. If you run the numbers, electric might be your winner when you calculate cost of equipment and fuel over the service life.

As far as cheap heat goes, you've got a lot of anthracite nearby, don't you? There's how you power your backup generator too, a steam engine :-)

"I like to set the heat back in the day when no one is home and that as i understand it is not good for heat pumps and will cause the electric heating element to come on more than one wants."

This can be easily avoided with the right thermostat and an outdoor sensor.

Hmm not getting too much opinion here...let me add a few details.

The house will be well insulated and air sealed but not perfect. I gets a lot of SE exposure but front of the house faces northwest and picks up a lot of cold wind though we kept the windows and doors to a minimum on that side of the house.
Here are a few more details...
1. We need to heat hot water some way,
2. I am literally the last house on the electric utility line so dependability of the electric to stay on is doubtful in big storms so some sort of generator will be needed.
3. System installation cost is a concern but it will be spread over the lifespan of the equipment and financed with teh building cost so its not as high a concern as if this were a retrofit.

One contractor was gunning for GSHP as the only way to go. One post here was for Greenspeed HP by Carrier. And yet another I think was for electric heat.

Anyone else got an opinion and facts to back it up, I'd love to hear.

Geothermal and Carrier's Greenspeed system would be the best choices. All electric. Weigh the cost differences between the two. Probably not much because of the Fed Tax Credit for Geo. I would discuss the tax credit with your accountant. Geo must meet the qualifying standard.

Stay away from Propane in a DF system if operating costs are important to you.

If you want a generator, then propane fuel is your only choice. You could include the water heater and/or stovetop if interested. Propane logs, too.

What is cost for electric and propane?

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: GSHP Fed Tax Credit

"1. We need to heat hot water some way, "

wxtrender,

A possible solution to your hot water needs would be a Heat Pump Hot Water Heater. I have a GE Hybrid Hot Water heater - there are other models and brands out there.

Frequently lots of rebate and tax incentives, mine has reduced my electrical usage by about $45-$50 per month for two of us.

They can be noisy - comparable to a whole house A/C in my case.

While I don't connect mine to my portable generator during outages, the hybrid mode is low power and could be connected i desired.

Here is a link that might be useful: GE Heat Pump Hot Water Heater

It is pretty cold for a HPWH in Allentown. You will be heating the air to heat the water all the time durning heating season.

This is not a practical consideration. The amount of cooling of the conditioned air is quite small as is the amount of humidity removal.

There is not much humidity in the indoor air durning the heating season either. That suggests an interesting exercise in determining the energetics of running a humidifier to supply latent heat for the water heater. You could put a little portable unit next to the HPWH and get it to run when the water heater turns on if the numbers favor it.

ionized,

There is no need to run a humidifier to "supply latent heat."

as I stated, the amount of heat removed from the room is very small... it will not have a measurable effect on either temperature or humidity in a basement, for example.

In an earlier thread on this subject I provided some numbers.

My heat pump hot water heater (during the summer) removes maybe a liter of condensate from my basement per day... there has never been an observed change in temperature, or humidity for that matter.

In the extreme case where no hot water is used, the amount of heat removed from the room ambient is a net of ZERO as the heated tank water's heat is lost back into the room.

If I lived in northern Maine with no Natural Gas available I would not hesitate to have a heat pump hot water heater. As I said, I'm saving $45-50 every month for hot water for two adults in MD.

Parenthetically, I would point out that the hybrid hot water heater is not going to measurably contribute to home cooling during the summer.

Ca. 20,000 BTU to heat a tank of water has to come from somewhere.

I'm not playing that game. Posting little shots, that is.

Go read the thread I alluded to and maybe you'll understand

BTW, had you used the electric heaters to heat that first tank would you feel better?

As explained in the earlier thread, think of the boundaries of the room as being the controlled area and that may help you... look at mass and heat across the boundary.

BTW, if you want to get your 20,000 Btu back in the air, turn the heater off. lol

This post was edited by saltidawg on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 14:00

Saltidawg, I'd love to see your evaluation. I just did a search for saltidawg and "hybrid water heater" and got one hit. It can't be the one you are thinking of. Can you help me out?

For wxtrender:

I received your email but you have chosen not to reveal your email address. Your profile setting does not allow me to send you an email either.

You need a thermostat which can be used with an outdoor temperature senor. The Honeywell Vision Pro is one example. The way it works is you set a lock out temperature for the heat strips. If you do a set back, and the outside temperature is above the lock setting, then the heat strips should never turn on.

Secondly, there are setback programmable thermostats for HPs that do not activate auxilliary heat. They start the 'set-forward' early enough to raise the temperature without using the heat strips.

OP,
post your questions to hvac-talk.com
in residential forum.
hvac pros to give you more opinions,
not that you aren't getting opinions here...
just access to more!
several members there are in your general
area and can advise also.

best of luck.

The HVAC-talk pros are welcomed to post in this forum. This forum also does not have the posting restrictions of HVAC-talk. In most cases you get more information here.

The OP is receiving good and interesting opinions in this thread. As a poster here and an HVAC pro poster on HVAC-talk IâÂÂll add my 2-cents here.

This is what I would do if it were my house - and I know I will get yelled at due to cost.

I would heat, air-condition and pre-heat DHW with geothermal and I would build that masonry heater. Second option would be to swap the geo for Greenspeed & keep the masonry heater.

This way operating and maintenance costs are way down, comfort is way up, particularly with radiant heating from a masonry heater. During power failures a small capacity generator can suffice during heating season, as you wonâÂÂt likely be able to run a heat pump with a less than 20kW generator.

Now if I could convince the wifeâ¦

SR