She sounds lazy, spoiled and manipulative. Other than that I don't know what else to say about her behavior. She may have learned some or all of her behavior from her mother. I have a friend who is a carbon copy of her mother's behavior. She's lazy, spoiled nad manipulative just like this lady you speak of. As long as she had people to "cater" to her whims and BS, she'll continue the behavior.

She sounds like Debbie Downer and I'd never want to be around her.

I'm not sure that she is lazy but it sounds like she is self-centered. The world has to revolve around her. Does she have her own circle of friends or a set of people that she can develop as friends separate from her husband? Will her husband allow her to do this? Why can't she tell her husband that she doesn't want to be as involved in the church and that she wants to do different things. This may just be the way that their marriage and relationship has developed and in which case the status will remain as is. She probably calls the kids because at least she is getting some attention, albeit attention that causes problems.

If she claims to be always tired maybe she is suffering from a level of depression.

This comment brought to you by BLfenton - armchair/amateur psychologist.

She has an absent husband as well as not having her father.
I understand put God first but perhaps it has become his escape.

She may be too dependent on her children for lack of anyone else.
Are her children like her?

Dysfunction is not genetic . Your daughters are not in danger of becoming like her simply by being related.
Having an absent father, she was never able to see the dynamics of husband-wife relationships.

Show your daughters by example what a marriage should resemble .
Teach them to have empathy towards others.
Teach them to do for others with no personal gain.
Show them that they may not win all the time but should not fear losing.

Yada,yada,yada............

HIWTHI, yes, she is a Debbie Downer. Unfortunately for her, the person she brings down the most is herself--the rest of us are busy getting on with things.

BLFenton--she has no friends that she socializes with at all, that I know of. She used to occasionally go shopping with her sisters (maybe once or twice a year) and I did one time see her "best friend" stop by for coffee, but neither of those was within the last decade. I think she mainly sees people at church.

Her husband would "allow" her to do pretty much anything, so far as I know. I've never heard him boss her or anyone else around, and he's a nice guy. I think she *could* tell him she wants to do different things and he would not give up his church stuff but would do what she wanted in addition. The church is where HE gets his attention and enjoyment, for sure, so I don't see him giving that up.

Forboystoo, you raise a good point that her husband is absent. It's true. I don't know if that is the chicken or the egg, because I've only known them for 20 years and they've been married for a couple more decades than that. I don't know if he was absent and that's why she shut down, or if he turned to the church for fulfillment because she is such a slug.

I think two of her children are like her. All of her children avoid conflict like the plague, but only two of them say one thing while meaning another and continually serve themselves while acting entirely put upon. Luckily, I am not married to one of those two.

And consequences. Rational consequences for actions. As a teacher, I find it's quite common for many kids to have no idea that a consequence follows negative behaviour. Of course this woman keeps doing it, she is getting a reward every time she does. If a child hit another child and then got picked up and cuddled, there is no way that child is going to stop hitting other children.

I would not call that passive aggressive. Her behavior is immature and somewhat manipulative but she also seems to be stuck in a victim stance and not willing to *own* her own behavior. If she doesn't want to go to church, but won't tell that to her DH and then plays the pity card to those around her because she can't participate in other activities without the risk of him finding out she's faking, that's a victim. The manipulation comes into play if she is able to get others involved in her charade or attempt to *assist* her in any way, such as taking her along on outings just to cheer her up. If you (or others) are doing that, stop now and just tell her you're sorry she's so unhappy but she's the only one who can change that, beginning by telling her DH the truth. She'll counter by saying "Yes, but....." and then go on to list all the horrible things that could happen, and why she can't be truthful. "Yes, but" is a victim's favorite phrase and will be the start of many sentences. As soon as you hear it, that's your cue that she's not listening, she's too invested in showing you why she can't change. Long time victims are really hard to change - they get some kind of payback from being a victim, something that most of us can't understand or relate to at all but it feeds them in some way. They are never responsible for anything (bad) in their lives, it's always someone else who made it happen, something that was done TO them. They relinquish all control then complain about it and try to enlist others to fix it for them. I have no idea if there is a connection, but one of the most victim-y women I know had an overbearing, bossy mother and a milquetoast father - perhaps that combination helps to mold a daughter into a victim.

A daughter who is valued by her parents, encouraged to speak her mind (respectfully) and is listened to when she does, allowed to make decisions, make mistakes and not be rescued but allowed to figure out how to correct them herself or live with the natural consequences, who is given adequate tools to mature and be responsible for herself will not become a victim. She will be a confident, independent woman who feels loved enough by family that they encourage her to function fully without them.

Daisychain, perfect! If consequences will keep my kids from developing this personality, they are safe. I am big on consequences.

My son is the only one of my kids who ever attempts to play a sympathy card, and I am pretty vigilant about calling him on it; I hope he'll outgrow it by the time he's in double digits.

DLM, I have no hope of changing this woman's behavior and wouldn't waste my breath trying. She has gone too far on more than one occasion (in her aggression toward others)for me to care about her, really. I feel sorry for her that she has this manner of commmunicating and dealing with people, but I don't feel sorry for her about the things she wants sympathy for and I never attempt to jolly her out of it in any way.

I've had a few family members who have tried this trick. I say: "Turn off your victim light. It is blinding me."

Yeah, she needs to be honest with her DH and develop her own passions. He clearly has. (I doubt she will).

I don't do well at tolerating or enabling this kind of behavior but I am naturally blunt in a restrained manor. I can put people in their places. When I see them standing by my window reflecting my barb, I let them be.

When they come back, I ask them to test whatever I am cooking and forget about the last conversation completely. I control my environment. I like peace, love and supportiveness.

She's having a pity party, and wants everyone else to attend~~you bring the cheese cause she'll be bringing the whine. ;o)

Patty, well said. I concur.

She doesn't have a job and there is nothing anyone knows of that should be making her so "tired" for the past 20 years.

It could be physical. What jumped off the screen is how you mentioned her 'sighing' several times in your first post. Fatigue, excessive sighing, even depression are symptoms of pernicious anemia (the body isn't able to absorb B12). It used to be fatal way back in the day. A blood test detects it and treatment requires B12 injections or tablets that dissolve under the tongue.

See the first set of symptoms at link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: pernicious anemia

I would say that her heart is not into the church thing, or she finds the people there not to here taste. She could be struggling with her husbands faith and hers not being "up to par".

also, per this description the husband is not listening or does not care that she feels left out. Granted we should (and will one day) put God first in our lives.

She sounds like she has lived her life for others and now does not have anything for her life as her focus.

A good friend could help her. Her husband is not her friend and she wants that. Hence the comments with others present with their husbands at the movies.

Now think of her upbringing, a domineering mom and she desperately does not want to come off like that! So she is submissive to keep the peace but miserable inside. Her missing father could mean she is afraid her husband will "leave" if she shares her feelings with him.

Very sad.

Submissive to keep the peace. Good insights, peytonroad. Sounds like her coping mechanisms have backfired on her. When you live with domineering, histrionic, abusive, or even sometimes just strong-willed & energetic people, your radar is mostly tuned into their moods & needs. You learn to placate, mollify, please, & deflect their demands, and unfortunately, your own needs are put on the back burner and sometimes abandoned. Sounds like she's done this all her life. Motherhood & being a housewife, I think, also reinforce self-sacrificing behavior.

I'd try helping her find words to say to her husband that she'd like to join in on other activities every now & then, and reassure her that she won't be abandoning her husband or neglecting her duties in doing so. She needs to learn that she isn't being selfish for wanting to do something of her own choice.

Martyr Complex.

Needs Sympathy and Pity -- a form of narcissism.

Constantly.

Like a Drug Addict.

Although a good solid dose of B12 (love those B vitamins!) would help too!

I also picked up on that maybe she is just not into church for either faith or the social reasons, and this can be hard to admit, especially when you live in the South!

Also, it can be a variety of medical problems besides the B12 causing the fatigue. Of course, so many of these are vague and the symptoms kind of run together:

Hypothyroid
Menopause
Fibromyalgia
Diabetes/pre-diabetes
Poor physical fitness/lack of exercise

OTOH, maybe she just needs to find some interests or hobbies that are not church (reminds me of the invisible/friends after 50 thread).

But, personality is largely "hard-wired" and not hugely changeable. Therapy can help, but your basic personality doesn't change, i.e., you're not going to make an introvert an extrovert.

Barring any physical ailments or even serious mental ones...

A favorite saying in my house:
"There are no victims, only VOLUNTEERS."

Actually, I think people's behavior's -- even the self defeating ones -- stem from complicated personal and family histories.

Yes, this relative sounds frustrating and annoying but I don't think there's anything you can do to "fix." It may not appear to be "working" for her, but she's getting something out of it.

Here's some insight from another Southerner (well, an all-over Military brat who has been in the deep South now for almost 25 years).

Begging off church activities with feigned illness/fatigue: this is just the Southern way of getting out of doing something without offending anyone. It's hard enough to turn down an invite to a Metallica concert by telling your metalhead friend that you don't like heavy metal. Have you ever tried telling a heavily-churched Southern person that you don't want to attend their church function because you're not fond of their denomination or particular congregation? You just don't do it. You make up an excuse. Also, in what may seem like an odd way, she is respecting her husband. If he is a deacon, or member of the men's committee, or whatever, it is expected that his wife and family be a part of things. If she were to go to a movie, or shopping with "outsiders", etc. rather than attend a church function, it could cause discomfort for him. So her solution is to stay out of sight. Crazy, but I understand it.

My observation of women or men who are heavily involved in their churches (particularly Southern Baptist or any of the more evangelical groups, and particularly the Pentecostal groups) is that all social activity tends to revolve around the church. Whether it is actual services, Sunday school, bible study, or socializing away from church . . . it is with other church people. Particularly if the children are grown so there are no other natural "groups" from which to draw friends (ballpark moms, band parents, neighborhood groups, etc.). My guess is that her husband has few friends outside the church, and might not be altogether comfortable with someone from the outside. So she may not be sure how to introduce new people to their lives.

As for the martyrdom/narcissism angle, I think other posters have commented well on that. She's just your standard guilt-tripper. The change agent there is not for her to change, but for others to change how they react to it:

Her: "I never get to do anything like that (sigh)".

Other person: "That's a shame, you really should try it some time."

or . . .

Her: "We HAVE to get the roof blown off today."

Son/Daughter: "I wish I'd known, Mom, but we already have plans. How about next Saturday?"

She only does it because it gives her feedback that she desires.

I think all of you are right--it may well be the culture of her church-y Southern set to excuse themselves from things on grounds of illness and exhaustion instead of saying "I'm tired of going to church events".

And it certainly could be health-related, too--she gets no fresh air or exercise, smokes a pack a day, and eats only white bread, meat, pastries, and the occasional veggie that has been boiled for a few hours,and drinks diet soda.I don't know where vitamin B12 comes from in nature, but since she doesn't eat anything raw that I know of, would she be getting it even if it did?

On the other hand, those are reasons why she either might actually be tired or why she might feel it's more polite to feign tiredness than to make her true wishes known, but they don't account for her aggression pitting one family member against others while portraying herself as the innocent bystander victim, which is the other part of what I think of as her passive/aggressive approach.

There are just too many things that it could involve to play psychiatrist. I have a friend whose husband is so very different in his church world then he is at home toward his wife. I have seen it and he scares me but I know his deacon crowd has never seen that side. Their marriage just ended recently. She on the other hand has her own many issues and I think it a good thing they called it quits since after much counseling they still managed to bring out the worst in each other. I know with her that although she was deeply religious she did not agree with the "mans club" mentality that went with the deacon crowd. However, your gal could be bi polar, who knows. All I know is that it's usually not just the one person in the relationship that seems odd. There is almost always much more going on.Why was the male attracted to Debbie downer in the first place? Sometimes its too easy to just blame the obvious person when you might not have all the answers or know if its from a mental illness or other.

She could be depressed, which could lead to lack of energy or drive to do things, thinking others don't care about her etc. It's kinda sad though that she doesn't feel like she could tell her husband about how she feels regarding church, but have no problem telling others about it (e.g. you). Maybe if she can tell her husband, and he understands, then she can then go out and do stuff she enjoys. Is there a reason why she couldn't tell the husband?

Continued...the thing is that sometimes this sort of person my not have proper wiring in the attic so when you add her feelings of living in her husbands shadow, not being understood, not knowing how to communicate and the fact that she has not felt she is living life to the fullest...well, sometimes they can get a bit psycho. When you reach out they often suck the life out of you with their woes. They are often suspicious of any advice so you might not want to go there. For me, I have developed something that works after awhile but it does require much patience. When I talk to people who "may be" like your friend I let them talk just enough about their woes to make them feel heard but I change the subject to happy conversation right before they get into a full fledged pity party. At first they are on to you and try to turn the conversation back to the pity party and over and over it goes. After awhile they learn that they can actually have a pleasant conversation with another person without it being all about them and their problems. I have had a lot of experience with this as my own mother was a Debbie downer and for years everyone avoided her like the plague. However, I knew the other side of the story. Still, I have only recently tried this technique once she made the effort to seem truly interested in her grandchildren. I have to say it does work though.

jterrilynn, I think he was attracted to Debbie Downer because she was very pretty and mild-mannered and because she (in her own words) was looking for a conservative, church-going man. However, like many of us at 18, she might not have had perfect vision for how life might play out with that man over the course of decades.

The more I think about it, the more I think that her husband is part of the issue--I do know that she told him several years ago that she did not want him to take on greater responsibilities at church and that part of her reason was that she did not want to give it as much of her time as it would entail. And he did it anyway. Because it is church, and not a hobby like golf, I guess he can always pull the "God told me to" card and she is effectively shut down. So where a more direct person like me would just say "Irv, I told you I didn't want to do it, so you're on your own" she goes along with it to a point and then cries sick.

So, even though he is also a very mild person, he's definitely a factor.

OK, trying not to take the 'Debbie Downer' personally. (Kidding!)

-Golddust AKA: Deby