How close is Albany to Troy? I know someone up there who might be able to help.

To condense for DH:
.1. can we save money buying the boiler ourselves?
.2. what kind for an oil fueled hot-water/radiator system
.3. what if we want radiant heat?
.4. 1200 sq. ft
.5. we really just want the cheapest for our system/we haven't much $$

Thanks! xxoo, wifey

You need an oil-fired boiler which will provide radiator or radiant heat. If you don't mind spending a little more money, you can get a used coal-fired boiler from a man in Troy, but with the price of coal being half the annual cost or even more, the payback is quick. They go for about $3,000.

You can also buy an oil-fired boiler, if you can find someone who will sell you one. A man in Troy, who works with our company might be able to arrange that too. Expect to pay about $2K +/- for a new boiler. Yes, you can save money by buying your own, if you can find one.

For 1200 sq. ft. you might get away with a boiler rated at 100K BTUH, but the only way to know for sure is to do the calculations, something that your dealer/installer should do for you.

So, in the end. You might be able to buy a boiler, but you still need a qualified installer and serviceman to set it up and do the hookups. You might save $1000 in the process.

"Can we save money buying the boiler ourselves?". Possibly. Many professionals won't install customer purchased equipment, but some smaller outfits, independents, plumbers and trunk-slammers will. We've installed a few boilers for long term customers that have purchased their own boilers. We gave them a small discount since the boiler was sitting in the basement and we weren't providing a guarantee.

Some of our fuel customers save money on boiler installations by hiring installers that work for cash wihout pulling permits or having the job inspected. You can save a lot of money on a boiler installation by cutting corners on the installation

Much of our added expense when installing a boiler is due to the expense of professional labor, guarantees, system design, sizing, re-piping, stainless chimney liners, new coated oil line, upgraded dual filtration, top end boiler trim components and/or control packages.

My thoughts having recently put an oil-fired boiler into a new house to drive a radiant system:

-it wouldn't make any sense to buy a boiler yourself unless you had someone who was capable and licensed to install it who was willing to do it for you. In the event of a malfunction, or god-forbid a major break down that would call in an insurance adjuster, I predict you would have an awful lot of finger pointing between the people who sold you the boiler and the installer. It would be far better to take the time and get three or more estimates from well-regarded contractors in your area. You'd be surprised the price differentials that you will see.

From my shopping experience, oil-fired boilers tend to fall into three distinct price classes. The cheapest are all-steel boilers made by domestic manufacturers. These are fine and can be very effcient, but the sheet steel water jackets have a limited life so you can anticipate replacing it sooner than the other two. The next jump up is a cast-iron boiler made by a domestic manufacturer. These have a much longer life than the steel and are well regarded. Finally, there are premium stainless steel and ultra-effcient boilers made by Buderous and Viessmann. These are very fine pieces of equipment, but tend to be expensive. I chose a Burnham V8 cast-iron boiler and am very happy with it.

Any of them will drive a hot-water or radiant set-up, but would need to be spec'ed to whatever you chose. When we installed our system we went with a Tekmar Electronic boiler control which made our system much more effcient by taking into account the heating load on the house and controlling the output of the boiler. However, this was a fairly expensive option and their are other electronic control systems that might work better for you.
Good luck!

I'd look at the multipass cast iron boilers. Most mfg make them and they're efficient, relatively easy to install and simple to maintain (Burnham MPO, WM Ultra, Buderus G115, Viessmann VR100, Slantfin Eutectic, Crown Freeport, Biasi B10 etc). If you go radiant, you will need to worry about low return temperatures. Your installer should know how to handle this.

Call a supply company and get quotes on a boiler. I got quote of $1700 for a G115. A contractor will mark the price up, say 20%. I think $340 markup is worth every penny for the warranty and delivery....

There's a heating company advertising on ebay half decent prices for good equipment (ie buderus) including install in NY....but I know NY is a big state.

I work in this field. I always liked cast iron, but a quality steel boiler will last longer and be more efficient than a cast iron boiler. We're talking hot water heating, not steam. Steam requires cast iron for long life.

Quote: oil-fired boilers tend to fall into three distinct price classes. The cheapest are all-steel boilers made by domestic manufacturers. These are fine and can be very effcient, but the sheet steel water jackets have a limited life so you can anticipate replacing it sooner than the other two. The next jump up is a cast-iron boiler made by a domestic manufacturer.

Regardless of construction, many boilers fail prematurely because of thermal shock (low temperature return water), dry firing, leaks (oxygen in the make-up water), short-cycling, (more expansion/contraction cycles), seasonal use (sitting full of soot and moisture) and overall neglect. The fault may lie with a number of people including the system designer, installer, service tech, and homeowner. We've replaced quite a few steel boilers since they were installed by people that didn't install the bypass required in the I&O manual. Many customers and installers have a negative opinion of steel boilers.

"A DIN standard in Germany requires a boiler design to be dry fired for 60 minutes, cooled and then pressure tested to 1.5 times its rating. Ask contractors how many boiler sections/blocks they have had to replace compared to Buderus".

I wonder if steel boilers could pass that test?

I'm thinking of a large manufacturer of cast iron boilers which had to warranty thousand(s) of cracked sections. Once they redesigned that area of weakness and came out with a new model, the same area is cracking. I wonder if they could pass the German standard???

baymee, I couldn't tell you if any boiler manufacturer's grey iron would hold up to an hour of dry firing like the GG20 iron. Overall casting failures in modern boilers are very low for properly installed and properly maintained boilers. Of course the more popular the boiler, the more failures there are likely to be. For instance, I haven't heard of many Biasi, DeDietrich or Ferroli failures but they're not popular like Peerless, Weil-Mclain and Burnham boilers.

I saw a familiar company in your post.

Here are some other factors when comparing cast iron to boiler plate steel:

1. The castings vary in thickness. We have a cutaway section in our office which shows the variations in the casting. It varies from 3/8 to 1/8 inch. Steel is a uniform 1/4 inch.

2. Since cast iron has millions of pores, its highest efficiency is before it is ever fired. Once soot fills the pores, your efficiency will drop almost immediately and you'll never regain it. You cannot clean soot out of pores. Also there are areas that a brush cannot reach or will get stuck from the top and it's very difficult or impossible to brush all the soot off the surfaces. Steel, being smooth, cleans easily and the efficiency will always be consistent. I had a sectional cast iron boiler for 25 years. My efficiency never was above 78%, no matter how carefully I set it up. When I took it out after 25 years, most of the gaskets were gone and I had alot of soot leaking out. Living here in eastern PA, where efm was king, I installed a 15 year old horizontal tube boiler and the efficiency was the same as when it was new...84%. Cleaning the tubes on a horizontal tube boiler involves removing 2 covers, 5 minutes, and brushing the tubes, 10 minutes, and it's thoroughly clean.

Cast iron boilers typically are noisy. Quality steel boilers have ceramic fiber combustion chambers and you can barely hear them running, even when standing beside them.

If installed properly, with no leaking pipes, and other things that you noted above, they will last a lifetime, which is how efm gives a lifetime warranty to the purchaser of its boiler. There are tons of efm automatic coal stoker boilers from the early '50's that are in perfect running order. The worst thing you can do to a boiler is add water. Fill it and immediately fix any leaks, and forget it.

You said you handle Hallmark.... and efm is the same company. Check them out.

There are many exotic units out there. I think they're a good idea, but leave some money in the will, so your children can continue to pay for them.

"Cast iron boilers typically are noisy. Quality steel boilers have ceramic fiber combustion chambers and you can barely hear them running, even when standing beside them."

The amount of noise a boiler makes depends on the boiler design, burner, firing rate, burner cover, air-boot and chimney. For example, one of our customers had a vertical pin style Utica boiler installed and complained that it was loud. When I downfired it, installed a chimney liner and air boot the sound was less than half of what it was before. A Beckett AFG, Beckett NX, Carlin EZ and Riello 40 will all sound different on the same boiler depending on the firing rate, sound cover, air -boot, chimney or chimney liner. I've seen cast iron boiler/burner combos that you could barely hear and others that sounded like a jet engine. This happens a lot with a Buderus/Riello boiler burner combo in an unlined chimney. Sometimes installing a chimney liner makes all the difference in the world and it's code in many areas.

AFUE and/or true overall efficiency when also producing domestic hot water can only be tested in a lab under controlled conditions, but decreases in steady state efficiency over time due to deposits is generally caused by the system designer, installer, and service tech. If the system is properly designed, properly sized, properly piped and the burner is properly tuned with electronic combustion test equipment you should see very little accumulation of deposits and very small decreases in steady state and overall system efficiency. For example, we service a lot of vertical pin style boilers that are plugged because they have tight passages, they're starving for air (closet tight/house installations) they're oversized (many unnecessary start/stop cycles), they're cycling constantly due to inefficient tankless coils, they have cold return water, they have old burners without oil solenoid valves and many times the units havent been serviced properly and the burners haven't been tuned by a professional with combustion test equipment.

Many of the vertical boilers also don't get serviced properly since they're more difficult to service. Techs also tend to destroy the soft combustion chambers with soot saws and vacuums. Some of the best features of some horizontal three pass boilers are the fact that they're easy service and lack of soft combustion chambers. The units are much more likely to be serviced properly and the customer won't get nailed for costly combustion chamber replacement. I'd like to have a few bucks for every Weil-McLain target wall refractory and bottom blanket I've had to replace.

Years ago there were a few people installing EFM and Thermo-Dynamic steel boilers, but I don't see many newer steel boilers other than Energy Kinetics System 2000 and Burnham LE series. I've always liked Hallmark forced air furnaces due to the quality of construction, access for service, dual flue options and the exposed burner since we use often use air boots. ...

Thanks everyone for the input. I've been busy with work and didn't realize there've been so many responses. I'll be able to make a more educated decision now.

Chris

Can anyone offer an opinion: I am considering replacing an Axman Anderson Oil hot water furnance with an Intreped Slant Finn Cast Iron unit. any thoughts....my oil company wants to charge $4900 installed with burner. I last changed this burner in 1981.