HVAC for new const - somewhat special needs

15 years ago

My wife and I can't afford to live in Paradise (San Diego) any longer, and are in the process of buying a new-construction home.

Particulars:

Fort Collins, Colorado

1900sf

Ranch w/full basement (9' ceilings)

Dual-pane, low E-gain windows

R-15 (+/-) exterior bsmt insulation

R-50 attic insulation

R-23 (+/-) exterior wall insulation

Insulated garage

Undertile heating, in kitchen and master bath

"Built-Green" certified

I've had sinus issues (not, they say, allergies) AND have severe eye problems, including serious dry eyes. I get by, but ... good control over IAQ matters to me, as do lowered energy consumption, relatively consistent temperatures, and efficient, reliable operation.

I've been looking at the Carrier Infinity System. The builder will contract the work, so I have little control over pricing. Allegedly, vendor cost + 18% P+O.

The builder's HVAC guy spec'd the following (my price):

CARRIER QUOTE:

* Carrier 58MVC080F114, 96% AFUE Efficient, 3-stage furnace with Infinity Thermostat - $2118

* Carrier 24ABA330, 2.5 ton Nominal Cooling, 13-seer R-410 Air Conditioner (CNPVP3017) -- additional $125 above builder's "standard" A/C, OR

* Carrier 25APA330, 2.5 ton Nominal Cooling, Up to 15 Seer, R-410 Air Conditioner -- $1534 above builder's "standard" A/C

* Carrier GAPA16, High Efficiency Air Filter - $1404

In addition, I asked him to price:

- Infinity whole-house humidifier

- dual-element UV lamp (filtration)

- insulating all ductwork (if not standard)

- 24ANA1 21-SEER a/c unit (presuming it to be better. I /think/ what he priced is a builder model??)

He also gave me pricing on a Lennox system:

LENNOX QUOTE:

* Lennox XC 15-030, 2.5 ton Nominal Cooling, 13 Seer, R-410A Air Conditioner Lennox High Efficiency w/ Honeywell Controls additional $2006 above builder's "standard" A/C

* G61MVP36B070, 95% AFUE Efficient, 2-stage, Variable Speed Furnace - $1829, OR

* Lennox G71MPP-36B-070, 95% AFUE Efficient Furnace with Fully Modulating Gas Valve - $2047

* Honeywell HE 265 Humidifier - $443

* Honeywell IAQ 7-day Programmable Thermostat w/ Humidity and Ventilation Control - $148

* Skuttle High Efficiency Air Filter - $224

* Honeywell HM509H8908, 9 gallon per day Steam Humidifier - $938

* Healthy Climate HEPA-20, High Efficiency Inline HEPA Filter - $938

I also asked him if he will provide me with the Manual J and Manual D (if I have those right) calcs, since I know nothing about sizing.

Because Northern Colorado is very dry, I've paid MUCH more attention to HUmidification than to DE-humidification.

Is there anything else I should be considering to help us achieve our IAQ, HVAC goals? I know it's come up over and over on this forum, but ... opinions on the LENNOX vs. CARRIER, as spec'd above??

I PRESUME that it's MUCH more cost-effective to have this done during construction than to try to retrofit after possession. Am I right?

Many thanks ... in advance...

NBeener

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Comments (6)

ryanhughes
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Okay, lots of things to consider with this new installation:

A. Was a load calculation performed to determine sizing properly? A load calculation doesn't select the equipment as some common sense and other factors are involved, but it's important to determine the BTU's you require. Okay--I see you mentioned this later on.

B. What type of ductwork is proposed? Personally I prefer metal trunk lines (insulated or lined) and flex connectors.

C. You want a lot of control over your IAQ--this is good. In this case, you'd benefit from the Infinity system from Carrier. I don't have anything against the other two condensers proposed (though I'd like to see a louvered coil guard in the 24ABA rather than the wire guard), but the 24ANA7 would complement the Infinity system well with its two stage cooling (good for dehumidification if sized properly).

D. Nothing wrong with the comparable Lennox system with the IAQ control, though right now I think Carrier has the best product offerings.

E. If you go with the Carrier system, do yourself a favor in getting the tin-plated copper coil with a 10-year warranty. These have an "ATA" at the end of the model number, so CNPVP3017ATA.

You're very right in wanting to have it done right the FIRST TIME and avoid problems down the road.

As far as pricing goes, typical builder markup unfortunately.
nbeener
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
ryanhughes wrote:

>>Okay, lots of things to consider with this new installation:

So I'm learning ;-)

>> B. What type of ductwork is proposed? Personally I prefer metal trunk lines (insulated or lined) and flex connectors.

I've e-mailed the HVAC contractor, asking if what you mention can be installed. Though I know little-to-nothing about it, it sounds robust and effective!

>>D. Nothing wrong with the comparable Lennox system with the IAQ control, though right now I think Carrier has the best product offerings.

Thank you. I'm sure each has their supporters, but ... for whatever reason ... I keep gravitating toward that Carrier line, myself.

>>E. If you go with the Carrier system, do yourself a favor in getting the tin-plated copper coil with a 10-year warranty. These have an "ATA" at the end of the model number, so CNPVP3017ATA.

Excellent. Many thanks. I've added that to the RFP. Is an A coil unit inherently better, or more efficient, than an N coil unit, or is each designed for a different application??

>>You're very right in wanting to have it done right the FIRST TIME and avoid problems down the road.

Perfect.

>>As far as pricing goes, typical builder markup unfortunately.

Sigh. I'm trying not to think too much about that ....

Again, many thanks for the input.
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Great units, for certain. Is this for one unit or two? Have you considered the possibility of insulating your hot water pipes and putting in ONE large hot water heater? This would reduce your standby loss (depending on your run length of your pipes). How about a tankless hot water heater? They use way less gas and they are so much easier to install now rather than later. If this is a two story home, you want to make absolutely certain of the following: You need either: (1) a zoned system with two different units. (2) one system with automatically controlled zones. (Carrier Infinity is known to be among the best with their zoned system and the price would be slightly less than for two systems--IF you do it now rather than later--drywall labor etc). Don't let anyone tell you that one unit can heat and cool a two story home. It needs to be zoned: either with one unit and thermostatically controlled dampers or two units. Don't take my word for it. Talk to any 2 story homeowner that has one unit for two floors. Too, I would seriously consider adding HVAC to the basement (especially if you ever plan on finishing the basement) Running the ductwork would only be a matter of a thousand bucks or two. Doing it now is a whole lot less expensive than later. Generally, the air conditioning and heating needs of a basement aren't all that significant and you can often use the same size unit depending on the outdoor exposure of your walls and windows/insulation etc. Another thing you may want to consider is having your ducts SEALED with a company that specializes in this. It is not uncommon to have brand new ductwork that LEAKS 20% of your system capacity. It is virtually impossible to get your ducts good and tight without this method. Aeroseal is a proven method which blows little particles into the "holes" and permanently seals them from the inside. Typical cost for this size home: perhaps $500-$750. They print the before and after results for you right then and there. It only takes an hour or two. Cold winters are no problem IF these unit(s) are correctly installed according to the heat load/heat loss of your home. On a twenty thousand dollar job, the HVAC contractor can take an hour or two and run a load for you. Insist on it. Before you go with American Standard/Trane (which are excellent units), check out the Carrier Infinity system with zoning. (You can have up to EIGHT individually controlled zones) Many professionals and homeowners testify that the Infinity system is the best. I should know as I have two of them! Good luck!
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ryanhughes
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I mostly see quotes using N coils from Carrier, so that's the direction I'd lean unless your contractor specifies an A-coil for some reason. The CNPVP is a cased N-coil.
miken_2008
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If IAQ is as important as you say I am not sure why we are talking about size before load and ductwork calcs have been done seems a bit premature but yes it is going to be a good bit cheaper to do this during construction, also I am not familiar with Colorado pricing but I would shop around
nbeener
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks again, ryanhughes.

Mike,

Interesting website! Many thanks for your input.

Hopefully, I'm NOT talking about sizing before duct and load calcs were done. That's why I've asked the builder's HVAC guy whether he has done, and can provide me with, the Manual J and Manual D calcs.

Unfortunately, I simply have no idea what has and has not been done, to this point.

The builder's HVAC guy IS the builder's HVAC guy. I don't have the right to choose another, and -- even if I did -- the builder would still add 18% profit/overhead TO those costs. It's semi-custom home, and I'm not the GC. Not much opportunity to price shop. I either take the deal or leave it.

Thanks again.
nbeener
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Had a long talk with the builder's HVAC contractor.

I plan to go with:

- Carrier 58MVC080F114 furnace

- Carrier 24ANA1036 a/c - most likely with N-coil, tin-plated fan coil

- Honeywell HM509H8908 steam humidifier

- Lennox Healthy Climate HEPA-40 air cleaner

- Infinity thermostat

But here's my question: I've asked him to price a two and a three-zone setup:

2 zones:

- main level (it's a 1,900sf ranch with full basement),

- basement

3 zones:

- main level living/dining/kitchen

- main level bedrooms, bathrooms

- basement

The prices I got (in addition to all equipment) are:

- 2-zone: $3,888

- 3-zone: $4,714

I can't imagine I, or the system, will EVER live long enough to see an ROI for this $$, so my questions are:

- Given that the builder has already told me he adds 18% to HIS vendor's prices ... any comment on these numbers??

- Given that it's new construction, upgraded insulation, tight house, UNfinished basement:

- I assume that energy savings of changing settings for unused rooms will NEVER return a payback, unless energy costs REALLY soar;

- can anybody give me any help in figuring out how I evaluate the value of zoning, for this house?

In other words: do the numbers seem reasonable, and would any right-minded human being ever consider paying this much money to put two or three-zone zoning into their home??

We're not wealthy, but I firmly believe this will be the home my wife and I (no others) live in for decades ... and understand that much of the big-ticket items, in this scenario, have -- at best -- about an 18yr service life. I also tend to think that energy costs WILL continue to climb....

Incidentally, the HVAC contractor seemed to know an awful lot about how zoning affects static pressures, and how duct sizing may need to be modified for a proper install ... at least ... to my totally uneducated ears ;-)

Many thanks ... again!

HVAC for new const - somewhat special needs

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HVAC for new const - somewhat special needs

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