I've never seen a bigger pile of crap posted on this forum. Please take your conservative political views elsewhere. For those who would like to know the truth about "cei.org"...

According to SourceWatch: It postures as an advocate of "sound science" in the development of public policy. However, CEI projects dispute the overwhelming scientific evidence that human induced greenhouse gas emissions are driving climate change. They have a program for "challenging government regulations", push property rights as a solution to environment problems, opposed US vehicle fuel efficiency standards and been a booster for the drug industry. [read more]
According to Exxonsecrets:
Founded in 1984, CEI is a Washington - based conservative think tank "whose research on public policy reflects the principles of free enterprise, individual liberty and limited government." CEI is at the center of the global warming misinformation campaign. [read more]

Happymomof2kids, please go elsewhere to push your draconian anti-government, anti-progressive and anti-science views. You can also stop hiding your true political agenda behind washing machines and detergents. I take your posts personally because you are preaching ignorance. As a "happymomof2kids" I would think you would be concerned about the type of planet you are going to leave for your children and grandchildren. Justifying waste and reversing progress behind the guise of "individual liberty" is not only inaccurate, it's insulting.

You represent views which I fight every single day on the airwaves here in Phoenix. Posts like yours are not only the epitome of selfishness they also represent a high level of self-hatred among you and people of your ilk. Only someone who hates themselves and the planet on which they live would advocate against higher efficiency standards and more environmentally friendly products.

I don't blame some corporations for skewing facts, as it is a matter of survival for them. However, you have a brain and the ability to think critically and question what you are fed. Change the channel and stop watching FOX. Expand your mind to fill it with knowledge and facts over obstruction and hyperbole. And most of all, do everything you can to ensure the planet is a better place for your children - not just economically and politically, but environmentally too. This is the only Earth we have. Once we ruin it, then what?

sshrivastava,

Please post your retarded leftist diatribes and junk pseudo-science elsewhere.

Only someone who hates humanity advovates for unnesessary regulations that burdens people with unnesessary cost and lowers quality of life.

Rich leftist can take the hit. Poor people cannot afford overpriced "green" products and take food off their family table.

Please stop watching MSNBC and educate yourself.

Maybe you still have a brain left.

I'm going to avoid politics and stick to washing machines...

There's a federal minimum standard for washing machines. As I understand it, it's the only energy regulation that manufacturers have to meet. This standard is the one that supposedly threatens the existence of conventional top-loading washers. A while ago there was some discussion which came to the conclusion that the Speed Queen TL may meet the upcoming 2011 federal minimum standard already. Maybe someone could contact Speed Queen and see if they plan to continue selling those models in 2011.

Manufacturers are incentivized, not required, to make further efficiency improvements, through a program of tax credits paid to them directly. The link below describes the credits.

Simply put, manufacturers are selling excessively frugal washing machines to get the tax credit, not because the government forces them to. It's a competitive market, so I imagine some of the credit goes into lower prices.

But, theoretically speaking, the manufacturer could give up the tax credit, or accept a lower tax credit, if consumers were willing to make up the difference. For example, pay an extra $100, to let the efficiency drop from the $250 tier to the $150 tier. That would give you a machine which uses a lot more water. If enough consumers wanted this, why wouldn't the manufacturers be willing to do it? But as long as everyone believes that "government regulations" mandate poor washing machines in the US, it won't happen.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://energytaxincentives.org/builders/appliances.php

Only someone who hates humanity advovates for unnesessary regulations that burdens people with unnesessary cost and lowers quality of life.

Rich leftist can take the hit. Poor people cannot afford overpriced "green" products and take food off their family table.

Let's drop a line to the residents of Love Canal or any of the other countless communities that an assortment of corporations have poisoned and check in on their quality of life. Perhaps while we are writing we should check in on the owners of those corporations and see how there quality have life is these days. Proper regulation of industry should be as much a concern for working class conservatives as it is for working class liberals. The notion that the protection of the environment is only the concern of "rich leftists" is absurd. As is the underlying notion that working class people (of any political persuasion) are expendable in the pursuit of profit. De-regulation isn't about the well being of the working class it's about feeding the greed of manufacturers at any price.

Suburbanmd, I have heard (and read) of government regulations which require appliances (not just washing machines) to be energy efficent. Sometimes that's a very good thing; some times, it causes other problems, particularly with washing machines. Ex: wash temps, as you've pointed out here before

De-regulation isn't about the well being of the working class it's about feeding the greed of manufacturers at any price.

Seems to me that's a bit of a generalization. I do think it varies from issue to issue. I do see a real difference between the Love Canal issue and "green" appliance requirements, particularly if appliance requirements affect the cleanliness of clothes, dishes, etc.

Please take your conservative political views elsewhere.

Ideally, political views of any stripe would be absent here. Because you answered the political view you wanted "elsewhere" with your own political view, your statement seems quite disingenious.

sshrivastava,

Whoa! First off I didn't know it was a political website. I did a net search that brought me to the article. The articles came off to me more like a consumer watch dog site. I thought it was interesting. They did mention that the government had put things into place, but one of the articles said it was done during the Bush administration, so how is that causing a problem for you.

For the record, since apparently you like to assume you know what others are thinking and blow up, I'm an Independent.

It was merely meant as an interesting discussion as we often discuss the difference in machines from different countries and how it seems the ones sold here in the US don't seem to work as well. I'm not the only one on this website that thinks the ones sold here in the US have issues. CHILL OUT!!!!!!

It wasn't meant to be personal. I didn't attack anyone here. Just found some articles I thought were interesting in relation to washing machines. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Tell you what. From now on if I see you post a topic I will refrain from even looking at it. You can do the same in regards to me. I have no desire to have further discussions with someone so rude and mean.

Wow, so much madness!!!

Everyone, I promise I won't mention "Climategate" suppression by the American MSM. Oops.

Anyway, just a reminder if you start a thread you can only insert a "click on" link at the second stage in the corrections field below the "submit" button and then hit preview again, then submit.

Appliance design when it comes to washers seems bizarre. The low energy and low water consumption goals seem to be met within a 5 year design cycle and a ten year (hopefully) life cycle because companies (well Whirlpool) must plan for even tighter goals in the future. So where does lost time and money from fixing failed appliances or dealing with their premature demise fit into the eco equation?

Fox News rules.

Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it stands than to anything on which it is poured. Â Gandhi

Mara, it wouldn't make sense to give voluntary incentives (tax credits) for meeting standards that are mandated by law. So I can only conclude that they aren't mandated. Those "government regulations" that you, I and everyone else have read and heard about are apparently not "regulations" after all.

As much as I personally dislike the political blogosphere, I'd love to see them take this up, and clarify exactly why the manufacturers are selling washing machines that don't wash and rinse properly. Maybe it could lead to a change in the marketplace.

When I was shopping for a new washer two years ago, a number of appliance salesmen and repairmen mentioned government regulations regarding water and energy usage to me -- that's where I heard about them. There was also an article in an electric bill from our local electric company. I also know about the incentives, rebates, etc.

Surely that many sources can't all be wrong? It's hard to know what to believe.

Unlike consumer incentives and rebates, which are widely publicized, you wouldn't find out about these manufacturer tax credits unless you looked for them, or stumbled on them.

According to the link I posted:

For each clothes washer which meets/exceeds a moderate standard of energy and water use, the government gives the manufacturer a $150 tax credit.

For each clothes washer which meets/exceeds a stringent standard of energy and water use, the government gives the manufacturer a $250 tax credit.

Would it make sense for these tax credits to co-exist with a law requiring a moderate or stringent standard of energy and water use? I don't think so. I'll admit that a good lobbyist might get the government to give you tax credits for something you were going to do anyway, but that's different; it doesn't cause an inconsistency between laws.

It would be great to hear comments from someone with experience in regulatory affairs, even if not in consumer appliances.

Is this a Jerry Springer script?

cynic, before I take offense, is that an insult or a compliment in your neck of the woods? Never mind, whichever it is, I'm sure you meant it as an insult. It doesn't bother me, and I'd like to hear your opinion as someone who's been in business. Is it possible to get a tax credit for doing something you're legally required to do? Do you personally know of such cases?

Anyway, this isn't conspiracy-theory stuff. There's a simple answer on the books, though maybe not easy for a layman to find.

OK, I searched the Code of Federal Regulations online, and found the document below. This is the current Energy Conservation Program For Consumer Products. Go to page 221 and look at section 3, "Clothes washers manufactured on or after January 1, 2007...". Those are the mandatory requirements...energy only, no water consumption factor mandate. They're the same for top-loaders and front-loaders. Considering that front-loaders are inherently more efficient than top-loaders, this clearly allows a lot of leeway for them to use water and heat it. If an FL on the US market uses too little water, at too low a temperature, it's because of the tax credits, not a government requirement. Is there still any doubt? Now, what can we do to correct this widespread misunderstanding?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/PDFgate.cgi?WAISdocID=103503141868+1+2+0&WAISaction=retrieve

suburbanmd, if you can't see the application of the Springer comment after reading the silly volleys in just the first few posts there's no hope of explaining it to you. So take offense, stamp your feet and go off on a tyrade if you like. Historically, for some reason you've attempted to take offense to anything and everything I say, which doesn't bother me in the least - I usually just ignore it. You have some burr up your butt about me and all I can suggest is try some lotion. Believe it or not, the sun doesn't rise and set on you, at least in my world. Your ego notwithstanding, not everything said in this forum is directed at you, nor is it intended to insult you, compliment you or otherwise revolve around you. Not everything is about suburbanmd, believe it or not.

As for your question, it's hard to answer specifically since I can't think of examples offhand but I would imagine there's times you can get a tax credit for something you're required to do. Most tax credits are not given automatically. You usually have to file for them. For instance one tax credit is given to people with children but you have to file and claim it to get it. Obviously that's not a requirement by law, but about all I can come up with off the top of my head. And yes I realize this probably won't meet with your approval and you may well go off again. But such is life in the real world so fire away. I can handle it.

My Cabrio's energy efficient (standard) settings do NOT get a full load clean, period. So I throw on deep cleam/presoak, and AMAZING! It's clean!

I don't care why it's so, but so long as manufacturers get to lie about their energy usage by claiming as a standard wash settings that leave socks stinky, the system is royally messed up. Of course, the total energy per load, not energy per cu ft of laundry, is likely what's calculated--which would make almost no sense at all.

... on the contrary the super-eco 60°C cycle of the european Duet for sure cleans great ... but it takes *f i v e* hours

So Whirlpool now can claim their normal cycle is more than twice faster :)) (two hours, no matter warm or hot)

Here is a link that might be useful: euro duet cycles and timing

reyesuela, the "capacity of the clothes container" is factored into US measurements of washer efficiency.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clothes Washers Key Product Criteria

Does anyone know if anyone makes a "rogue" controller say for the GE 4250 HydroWave which could be a good washer if one could add some manual controls. The machinery is there if someone would do a hack for a reasonable price.

If you like what the government has done to washers your going to love what it's doing to healthcare.

Eddie if you go over to automaticwasher.org they will have your answer.

Yes, they might be able to give you some inspiration.

Maybe, but a simple search didn't find anything related.