"It has a New Gibson 2 ton Air conditioner, which doesn't cool at all. although it acts like it's working."

warmead

this indicates that a two ton may be undersized. You need a load calculation to know for certain.

what is your electric rate? does your electric utility offer any special rate incentive for HP heating?

what is oil cost/gal?

here are my specs for a new HP system

15 SEER, 12 EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs in both heating and cooling for rated size
R-410a refrigerant
var speed air handler
scroll compressor preferred
electronic defrost preferred
staged backup heat strips
thermostat that controls blower speed

for your area/climate, it's important that a new HP system has a good heating eff number.

as far as your quotes, I don't care for #1 or #4.
as far as Carrier, I would not go lower than the Comfort 14 Puron model.
You need to recheck mdl of the Trane quote and advise.

IMO

The Trane model # should be 4TWX5024A--probably the "W" was mistaken for a "1U." What digital thermostat? I recommend the VisionPRO IAQ (Trane's TCONT900 should be the same thing I believe) or Trane's TCONT802/TCONT803. Price sounds high for a 2-ton unit. I highly doubt that 2.5 tons is needed for 1200 sq. ft. unless you have tons of windows and no insulation. Sounds like you have some other issues. Was the ductwork inspected? I have a 3.5-ton unit cooling/heating 3500 sq. ft. and even maintaining 72* during the heat wave (95*+ weather) on the east coast--just to give you an idea about sizing. I don't know your home's orientation/insulation/etc., and it's very important to have a load calculation done. It's hard to find someone willing to do it, but insist that one is done.

Thanks to both tigerdunes and ryanhughes for your quick responses.

The cost of heating oil in this area (Cincinnati) is about $4 per gallon right now - is there a downside to keeping the oil as a backup (I've heard the smell may be an issue -- my spouse is pretty sure it should be all electric, but I'm not totally convinced yet). We do need a reliable system and we are getting older -- can't fool around -- we really need a system that will be worth owning for 25 years if we can find it...are any systems that reliable and efficient?

I spoke with our local heating/AC man - came from the Heating/Ac compnay just 2 blocks away - he seemed to be most thorough of the 3 that we've had so far, and inspected the ductwork, each vent and also the rooms. This is what he said:

" The 2.5 ton, 13 SEER carrier unit does use refirgerant R-410A unit -=> It has a 5 year parts warranty and 1 year labor, but for $25 we can get a 10 tear oarts warranty." He didn't really get the need for a matched thermostat in the system, except that he said the coil has to be right for the Heat Pump (????) and our old York was too small and wouldn't work, so he would have to lift the oil furnaceout of there to put a new coil in and either put the new electric furnace in or put the oil furace back....Does this make sense - it's giberish to me(???) (All the other have 10 year parts and 1 year labor with the exception of the westinhouse uit which has 10 year parts and labor unless the copressor or the coils go out -- then they replace the entire unit for free (pats and labor included).

It sounds liek you two either recommend a high efficiency Trane or carrier System.

I'm getting two more quotes this weekend - one guy sell American Standard and the other various brands...

Let us know how the two quotes go so we can compare everything together. I'm confused because the 2.5-ton 13 SEER Carrier above is listed as using R-22 refrigerant (and the model number suggests this, too)--was this a different contractor or was this a mistake? I think a Trane or Carrier heat pump would be a good route to go with electric heat strips as backup (very common on heat pump systems). The thermostat usually doesn't need to be changed (of course unless you are upgrading to a high-end system), but it's not a bad idea to get a digital programmable one at the time of replacement. The warranty upgrade sounds too cheap to be true; make sure it's from the OEM and not the dealer. Did any dealer look at the ductwork or suggest changes to improve comfort? These are signs of a competent contractor who is focused on getting your home comfortable (and of course getting a sale).

wamead

do you mind stating your electric rate?

Carrier has four levels of HPs-Infinity line,Performance line,Comfort line, and the lowest Base line which you have been quoted. The base line model you have been quoted has R-22 refrig and as expected has poor efficiency numbers. If you are interested in your operating costs, then this model should be discarded.

these are the numbers you should be looking for in a new HP system

15 SEER, 12 EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs in both heating and cooling for rated size
R-410a refrigerant
var speed air handler
scroll compressor preferred
electronic defrost preferred
staged backup heat strips
thermostat that controls blower speed

for your area/climate, it's important that a new HP system has a good heating eff number.

Because of the fossil fuel price for heating oil, I would be leaning toward getting rid of it altogether.

BTW, Am Standard is Trane's sister company as is Bryant to Carrier.

IMO

Do a search on "Hallowell Acadia system" there has been some talk here in this forum on it also it's an eye opener. I believe the co has a website also with some good info, sorry don't have it off the top of my head but Goggle it I'm sure you can find it.

Good luck keep us posted

Bigal

Thanks again to all,

The Electric costs in ur area are .09 per Kilowatt hour.

The one contractor who checked out the ductwork, and seemed most thorough is also the one who quoted us the carrier (and goodman) system, and from what I'm hearing here the carrier is an R-22 system. When I spoke to him on the phone he seemed to think that it was an R410A system..so maybe hes notas good as we thought.

I will keep "tigerdudes" advice and look for a:
15 SEER, 12 EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs in both heating and cooling for rated size (what does this mean?)
R-410a refrigerant
var speed air handler
scroll compressor preferred
electronic defrost preferred
staged backup heat strips
thermostat that controls blower speed

But so far any system I've ben quoted is over $8000 when it has a SEER of more than 14. I was trying to get a payback in 5 years (figuring to save about $1000 per year) but now I think I will just try to get the right system and contractor and hope for the best.

I'm not hearing here that any manufacturer is beter than any other -- is this true? At one point it seemed like Trane was top of the line and Carrier was right there also...but it sound slike it depends on model, which makes sense. (Any preference here on best - and most reliable - models?)

One last question - I've hear the higher end models are more sophisticated, but also havemore parts, and are likely to have worse reliability -- what are our thoughts?

Thanks again to all,

Bill

To BigAl,

I read the website of Hallowell-Acardia -- which is the marketing literature -> This is a product (and company) I haven't heard about. The warranty period seems low compared to the others (to a novice like me, this means the system may be less reliable -- is it?). I don't understand this statement (also from their marketing department):

" efficiencies from 200%-400% throughout its operating range." (what does ths mean when compared to others?)

I will look for the forum to see the kind of conversations they are having.

Staements on the Hallowel-Acardia web site:
"Reliability: Made from time tested and industry standard components, the Acadia will provide you with years of service. From the durable outdoor cabinet to the simple programmable thermostat, you wonÂt have to worry about maintaining peak efficiency and comfort for the many heating and cooling seasons to come.

Savings: Using efficient technology has never been so cost effective. Electricity is the most price stable form of energy available today and, with the volatile fossil fuel market, homeowners are looking to electricity to provide reliable and predictable heating and cooling costs. Efficiency is the key to saving money and the Acadia operates at efficiencies from 200%-400% throughout its operating range."

Thanks again,

Bill

wamead

first of all, I am attaching a link for a fuel comparison calculator. the results with your electric rate and cost for oil/gal will be an eyeopener.

"One last question - I've hear the higher end models are more sophisticated, but also havemore parts, and are likely to have worse reliability -- what are our thoughts?"

I have not seen any independent study that would point to reliability problems of upper end systems as opposed to average lower end systems. Most upper end systems offer a 10 yr warranty on parts/compressor and ext warranty that includes both parts/labor is available for purchase.

Yes, high eff HP systems will cost more.

"full BTUs in both heating and cooling for rated size (what does this mean?)"

This means that you want full BTUs in both cooling and heating. For example, if you require a 2 1/2 ton system, then you want 30 KBTUs in cooling and 30 KBTUs in heating at 47 deg outside temp. Anything less and you are shortchanging yourself.

Here are a few suggestions.There are others.

1382161 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5030A1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.75 30000 9.00 18000

3032405 Active Systems COMFORT 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB530A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 30000 13.00 16.50 29400 8.80 17300

904419 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA530A30 FE4ANF005 30000 13.50 16.00 29200 9.00 16900

numbers provided from the AHRI HP Directory

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator

ehad a local guy who has been in business for 21 years referred to us. He came out today and seemed really good - load calcualtion etc., and his system met all the recommendations from "tigerdudes" but he only uses Amstrong equipment. What are your thoughts on this manufacturer?

Thanks again for your adviace,

Bill

wamead

post the mdl number of outside condenser and inside air handler.

td

The Anderson HP model number is: 4SHP13LE130 (2.5 ton)
The anderson Air Handler/Coil Model: EC1P36BL
Furnace Model Number: EFC12 Blower Modular with 15KW Aux heat package.
Total of above for R410A refrigerant = $5145
Total of above with R-22 System = $4820

Additional Options:
Air Cleaner: AprilAir Model 2200 = $295
Variable Speed Furnace = $485
Programmabel Digital Thermostat = $125
10 year parts and labor = $595

I would still need to get my electric upgraded for about $1700 (through a different contractor)

My favorite thermostat has become the 'Ritetemp' sold by Home Depot that has a remote control. If I wake up too hot or too cold, I can grab the remote and remedy the situation without getting up. Anything without a remote seems so primitive to me now...

no armstrong. the main idea is a new system that has full BTUs in both cooling and heating with a high HSPF heating eff around 9. I checked the AHRI HP Directory site and Armstrong simply does not measure up.

IMO

Garymunson,

Is that remote for the thermostat infrared, and therefore only good in same room, or is it radio-based, so you can use it elsewhere?

What I want, is one of those new networkable thermostats, you can connect it to your home computer network, and monitor temp etc anywhere in the home with a wireless laptop, or even remotely if you have the setup for a remote login from outside....I think that would be sweeeet....

I am a bit of a gadget guy and I would be going that way, just because...although I'm sure there are lots of practical considerations, if you're leaving your house for any length of time, no doubt it can email you if there's issues, and you can fire up your heating when you're heading home, for example.

The remote is radio based AND two way, giving a confirmation beep when the base responds to the command. My house footprint is about 70' x 30' and the remote even works to about 15 feet outside (I know, that's a stupid use) the concrete block house. As for a remote monitor, most alarm companies (if you have a home alarm) can add a temp monitor to the system. If you are up north, that's probably the better way to go otherwise a failed heating system could freeze up pipes before you checked your e-mail. The full time monitoring system would catch that and go down your contact list unitl it reached someone. If your luck runs like mine, I'd be out of any kind of contact range when the system croaked.