IMO it's all about attention. I guess even negative attention is better than nothing. My parents divorced when I was just 2 (50 years ago), back when it was uncool. I met my dad when I was an adult, and wasn't impressed with him. My mom and my brother and I moved back in with her parents for a few years (not easy for a grown woman with 2 kids to go back "home" again) and she got a job in a factory.

Regardless we turned out fine, and I'm so sick of constant excuses when anyone turns out bad or who has problems....it's the way they were raised, came from a broken home, etc, etc.
Poor little me. Instead of taking responsibilites for their own actions, it's easier to blame someone else, and this is exactly what your DD's friend is going to do to, since her parents are divorced.

Maybe she lies about things that make her sound better and more important than she is. e.g. went away on a holiday with her mom or dad, when she didn't. All to look better than anyone else?

Casey Anthony,was a habitual liar all her life according to reports ....Look how she turned out.This child needs psychiatric help real fast.

june

Two people come to my mind...Casey Anthony on a national level and DD's former roommate on a personal level. Casey's in jail on the worst possible charges. DD's former roommate stole money from DD, wrote checks on her account, opened DD's mail, got a credit report on her, stole, wore and gave away some of DD's clothes, portrayed herself as a college student, etc. She did this all in 2 months time and when she was caught, the elaborate lies never ended. She also impersonated DD on the phone when the police officer called to talk to DD. She told the officer that she (meaning DD) wasn't pressing charges. She didn't go to jail but went to court, repaid most of her debt to DD and did 10 hours of community service. Only 10 hours and it took DD many, many hours to follow up and clear up the damages that the roommate had done!

Leslie/KS

I worked with a woman like that. She was so good at lying she could make you believe her even when you knew the truth! You would have to sort of sit yourself down and say "whoa! I know that's not true. Why did I believe her?" What a relief when she quit working here.

I also had a person I thought was my BFF but I finally figured out that she would lie when the truth would do. Had to cut her out of my life. That still hurts. I miss her but I can never trust her again.

Linda

I think it originates with parents who don't teach the kids to take responsiblity for their actions early on. Those kids never learn that failure or losing is not the worst thing in the world.

Not saying these kids deserve to be pitied cause you can overcome your raisin'. :)

I am going to disagree with you Granlan- My step- daughter is one of these kids and trust me, this was not how she was raised. She began lying and telling stories as soon as she could talk. No one could ever figure out why. She is now 22 years old and not one single person in the family can believe a thing she says. She has bounced from state to state and home to home. She wears out her welcome wherever she goes. She steals as well. Our last hope was to get her back to Maryland where she had been living and had her identification from to get some medical help. Her birth mother lives there and was trying to get this girl help. Needless to say she is in the wind again. All she wants is for someone to let her stay home and do whatever she wants to do. We have all tried to get her into school and jobs. While living with my BIL and his family she got a job, but on the first day she called in to tell them she had a funeral to go to and could not work. Then lied to my BIL telling him what a great day she had! So very sad to see a life wasted like this. But it is not always the parents.

Trish

I think it is a mental disorder.

I also think 13 year olds do NOT need texting. Even if they are not liars - it can really cause trouble and cheating.

I had a friend like that. She lied to get what she wanted, to make herself look better or just to create drama for other people. I don't think she ever really cared about anyone else (except for her kids now). She did the crying thing too a few times when things didn't go her way... then she'd get her way. I don't know why I kept her as a friend for so long.

I don't think it was anything her parents had control over. It was just the way she was/is.

Trish, that's the stuff my DD's roommate would do. And, she would tell lies even if the simple truth didn't have any consequences to it. Like, wearing my DD's sports bra and claiming she didn't know where it was...even though DD could see it under her tee shirt....saying she didn't eat pizza even though the pizza box was there. I don't get it. What's missing in these people. Is it genetic, a missing chromosone, or what???? They sure mess up a lot of people's lives and don't even realize they've messed up their own.

And, Orie, yes, they do make up stories to cover up the lie they've been caught in, don't they? And, how can they believe their own lies, when they have to make up another one... and yet, they believe that one, too.

Sorry to carry on so much. This one hits home with me!

Leslie/KS

trishaw, I have to ask, what kind of repercussions/discipline or whatever was there for when she lied as a kid? How on earth can it get to the point where she COULD wear out her welcome if they're not giving her what she wants? I don't know the whole story, so no offense intended, but from what I see, uh, she's winning. And at this age, tough love is probably the only solution.

Lying is so commonplace and way too accepted in my opinion. Stats show that over 70% of all people lie on employment applications. You almost have to to get a job because of the lies by the employers. Again, no consequences for either.

I firmly believe it's upbringing. It's very typical to try to get attention and when they're rewarded with getting what they want, so why change? As time goes on, if there's no detrimental effects from it, they'll continue. Are there some kids who are just plain "bad"? Yes. But I think there's very few. All kids test parents. And many parents don't even realize it. It's sad. You need a license to drive but not to parent.

All too often parents just can't or won't see it. They'll hold one kid to a higher standard than the favorite. That's normal. Not right, but normal.

I learned about this when I was a kiddie photographer. Crying kids, lying kids, name the technique, it doesn't matter. If you think of it as an argument you'll understand much better what's happening. Parents bring the kids in and they cry. So what happens? Parents pick the kinds up. Who won the argument? Kid lies, no punishment (wouldn't want to "traumatize" the kid"), kid gets what they want, it's an argument. Who won?

Anytime I see pre-teens with cell phones, I cringe. There's a certain justification if they go to friends and parents want them home, but FRS radios work too. Or call the house, like my parents could do. This is no different than unsupervised computer use.

Today they're called "bi-polar", "ADD", "ADHD" or what-have-you. In my day, they were simply "spoiled brats". And then when they grow up, it's "PTSD"!

I'm not saying that this child is a socipath, but you and others who have posted about habitual liars may be interested in the link below.
I think keeping your daughter away from this girl is a great idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Definition of a Sociopath

I believe that chronic liars, no matter what their ages, have horribly low self-esteem. In most cases, I believe that something happened in their lives which made them believe, oftentimes in the sub-conscious, that they are not worthwhile people. The liars use the lies to try and make others think better of them. What the liar doesn't realize is that they will be found out sooner or later. And when one is looking at teens, NO ONE can tell a teen to change their ways.

Whether a kid blames themself for parents who separate/divorce, whether a kid doesn't have a relationship at all with one parent, whether other children get all the attention/glory, whether someone along the way tells the kid they are stupid...or ugly....or whatever - all of this impacts how a person responds to others and, in my experience, this impact lasts for years and years.

I feel sorry for the young girl in the original post. However, as a parent, your first responsibility is to your daughter so I'd limit contact and educate your daughter to different personalities and their impacts.

Wihin the last two months I read an article in The New Yorker about an MD studying physical anomaly in the brain activity of psychopaths. He had a grant for a portable MRI that he took into prisons to examine inmates. He documented a huge over-representation of psychopaths in prison populations, confirmed by their distinctly different brain patterns. (Their brains showed little or no development in the area where we know 'judgement' and 'conscience' reside.)

These people don't have the same conception of the past or the future as normal people do. The present is everything. They are excellent 'readers' and manipulators of others. They care nothing about anyone other than themselves -- and amazingly little about themselves! There is no concept of 'consequences' -- for others or for themselves. They are incapable of empathy; they have a shallow level self-identity. They like to control and to create excitement and stimulation.

This is ground-breaking research, showing a physical anomaly for the actions of psychopaths. (Older term was sociopath.)

I wish I knew why my child does what she does. When she was very little we did the standard time-outs for not being truthful. Or little things being taken away. She NEVER got her way as it defeated the whole purpose of being punished. I don't think spanking works in this type of a situation, but there was an occasion one. There are way too many stories for me to tell here. If we caught her in a lie she was indeed punished. My step-son and my son both learned that lying gets you no where. Of course they tried it, but decided the punishment was not worth it. My daughter never ever caught on. She left school one day with a group of girls and went to a boys house. The boy had stayed at school, which the girls did not realize until after they were in the house! The father came home and the girls tried to hide in the boys room. Dad called the police thinking he had a robbery in process. Anyway, the girls ran and I got a phone call from the police. A couple girls were caught and of course told on the others. My daughter was finally found hiding in a drainage ditch. She told the police that she was not there, never been to the house. Anyway- by this point I went to get her. She refused to tell the truth. The police and the father wanted to drop the whole thing, but by this time she was 14 and getting worse. I asked that charges be pressed and they were. She was made to do community service and pay a fine. She worked for me to earn the money to pay the fine. As I work in the nursery industry I can tell you that was one heck of a lot of weeds pulled.

I firmly believe that a lot of her problems stemmed from her parents divorce. Her self esteem was low, and councelling never helped her. We tried for years. Tough love is the answer for us, and it kills me. This is a beautiful and talented young woman. We have asked her to come live with us and we would help her. She does not want our help as we refuse to enable her. She has to pull her weight if she comes here. She does not want to work or attend school. I have no choice but to let her live her life.

Trish

I think teens who lie constantly need counseling. Even that doesn't help some. I had a friend whose DD lied and stole when she was a teen. She is now 36 and her first child got put in foster care and then adopted. Her other two kids are in foster care because their mom is a hooker and drug addict with tattoos on her neck.

You can't 'counsel' a psychopath. Possibly if you intervene when one is still a young child you can hope for some improvement. Psychopaths have abnormal brains. It's not like teaching a normal person how to make rational choices in life.

I found the article I referred to above. (Thank you, Google.) It's "Suffering Souls" in the November 10 issue of The New Yorker.

My little brother is a liar and has been his entire life.....he is mentally ill and his jail sentence included a year at a state mental hospital.
He still lies.

Thanks to all of you who checked my post. I'm just at a loss for this girl. We have been neighbors since she and my DD were born. I've progressively seen her self-esteem drop and her manipulation increase. I know she loves my DD and my DD is her only real friend. My DD understands what is happening and was bummed when this girl added her name to a nasty text she sent to someone else. Unfortunately, they are neighbors and play on the same soccer team. It's going to be hard to avoid her. I've given my DD some advice on how to handle the situations that I know will arise-- ex: they have soccer practice tonight and I know this girl will start crying (for the coach's attention) and will probably say my DD is mean to her or something. I don't know if this girl will be growing up a sociopath but I do know she will have troubles... they've already begun. She is the 3rd of 4 children... one of her older brothers already set fire to their bonus rm! The whole family is so messed up. Both mom and dad are engineers, (mom has about 5 different degrees but no common sense), they live in a huge house (but noone keeps this house clean), they have 4 cute kids (but they're all screwed up), mom and dad separated 3 yrs. ago- are still married but dad lives in a different house and mom has moved in a boyfriend she met online 15 min. after she met him! Yes, great example for their kids! These are the kind of people that should never have had children. Noone really cares for them. It's amazing they've made it this far. I think I will continue to have my DD avoid her as long as possible and to just be curt and cordial when need be but no more than that.

Did your daughter call her on it? or does she just let it go?
I think a little honesty and good examples will go alot further than abandoning her "friend".

Another thing, in this time/age please watch her safety. So many of the kids where they are teens or not, and even younger, if they do not get their own way they will try and many times do, kill those around them Sad to say, this is happening way too much. You mentioned that the brother set a room on fire--just make sure they are not around your property. Who knows what the girl will tell the brothers and others. Just be aware of where the childrend are. Talk to the coach so he knows what is going on and if you sense a problem, just let him know what will happen if he lets her get "control". Is this school related? Let the principal know also--otherwards, keep on top of the situation. good advice, your daughter can be polite, firm and encourage her to report any problems to you and the school. I wish all the best.

I agree with several of you who say that some people lie so much even to themselves that they begin to believe that their lies are reality. I know a woman like this. She lies about everything. She will tell you something & then conveniently forget what she said. She just tells you what she thinks you want to hear at the time. She will also spin things to make others look bad if they don't agree with her or go along with how she wants things done. She was telling me something about a mutual friend & it just didn't sound right to me. None of it went along with what I knew or had ever heard others say about this person. Knowing her history & realizing that there are two sides to every story, I asked the other person & got their side. It made perfect sense then. I'm not sure why some people are like this, but the ones I know do have some sort of issues. Usually it seems to be a need for attention or to be pitied (I guess another way to get attention). This lady will tell everyone about how badly people treat her, when it's actually the other way around. I know a lot of people she's used, but she always spins the story to make it sound like the other person treated used her & treated her badly. She's constantly telling these "poor little me" stories. I think that this lady honestly believes her own lies. She's lied to herself so much that this has become reality.

I had a college roommate who was a habitual liar. She knew that I liked a guy & would tell me stories about how she'd run into him on campus & he wanted to send me a message, etc. She even went so far as to give me notes that she said were from him. I wondered why she was always the one to run into him & questioned why he would send notes but not call me. She managed to convince me that he was really shy; you know how it is when you have a crush, you want to believe things. I actually got up the courage one day to call him, which she did not expect, as I was extremely shy at the time. Of course, he had no idea what I was talking about. He was embarrassed. I was embarrassed, furious & hurt. This girl had real problems. She would lie to her parents & sister & to me & my friends. She got to the point where she didn't want me to go anywhere without her. It wasn't exactly "Single White Female", but it was creepy.

I would definitely say that this girl could benefit from counseling. She may not even really know what is reality at this point.

We can only get so far from them as we live one house away from each other. The girl has had problems with another girl from the socer team, too, and the coach is very aware that she has many issues.... mostly it's her self-esteem. Yes, my DD calls her on her lying and on her crying for no reason. She wouldn't do it at first because she didn't want to hurt her feelings but now, well, she's realized that her friend has problems and she does question her now when she does inappropriate things. We just came back from soccer and, as we knew, her friend cried for attention. We knew this would happen because she's had a tough wk. with getting caught in these lies and hurting others. Both my DD and the other girl are on the team so I'm sure she felt left out today. I'm hoping she did feel bad and maybe she'll change her ways. I don't think she will.... it's the only way she gets attention even if it's negative. It's sad but I'm kinda done being nice. Her mom is ineffectual.... dad is better but not with her all the time. We'll see how it pans out. I'm not quite fearful of this girl as she is also, if you can believe it, very innocent- she just knows how to manipulate. I believe she's learned this from her brothers as she's the only girl and has had to fend for herself quite a bit. Yes, the arsonist brother has all kinds of problems too. Mostly emotional but I know that can lead to trouble if he's not helped. The parents are too concerned with their private lives and don't see the needs of these kids. They range in age from 10-16-- 3 boys and 1 girl. I hate that we're editing her out of my DD's life for a while but I think it's best for us. I do think it'll make matters worse for her. I hope not.

I hate to say it, but the kid is bad news and I would be very concerned to have my daughter be friends with her. I feel sorry for the little girl, but at that age and being a liar...she is like a keg of dynamite just waiting to go off.

I knew two friends who lied and they lied about the most inconsequential stuff. Things that didn't matter in the least but once I found out they were liars...I put distance between them and myself because it was just tiring to be around someone like that. I learned early on not to waste my time on people who could only bring you down. One of them, besides out and out lying, loved to embellish everything like she was trying to impress me. I am about the hardest person in the world to impress because, mainly, I just don't care what you have...if you have something, good, I'm happy for you, but I have no jealousy. Everything in her life was a big deal. I think lying is caused by lack of self esteem.

This is scary for her and very sad too. Her life must be just a mess. Somtimes people lie to build themselves up because they don't think much of themselves.

I agree with another, the texting should be ended. Not needed.

Orie, what bothers me most is that this your DD's "best" friend. While it would be hurtful to just drop the girl, I would try to help your daughter cultivate a more appropriate best friend.

It bothers me too that she is my DD best pal. I do have to say that my daughter has a million friends (she's also the only child we have)... she considers them all good friends. This girl happens to be the one she's known the longest (all their lives), has played soccer with since the age of 5, has traveled intensively with us and lives 2 doors down. She has traveled with us for weeks on end in the summer (all the way to the west of the U.S.) and many trips to the beach and mountains. She's overall a good kid but we saw these things coming. It's just that lately, things have escalated and, since the parents won't do much because they are hardly aware of what goes on with her, I'm the one having to draw the line because I don't want my DD hurt. I think this will send the girl over the emotional edge just a little more. I'm glad they do not go to the same school. We have ours in a private, christian school and her friend is at the local public school. I have told my DD that this girl is off limits for some time and my DD agrees. She has other very good friends she can associate with, both at school and at soccer. I'll keep you guys posted on this and how this girl handles this new situation.... It'll be interesting. I think she'll become a bigger emotional mess.... She won't physically harm anyone (she doesn't have it in her to physically hurt someone) but I do think she'll continue to manipulate with tears. THIS is what she excels at! I think our family knows this girl better than her own family does... and that's sad. We have been neighbors for close to 14 yrs. now. We taught her things that her family should have taught her, she didn't know how to bathe and we taught her, she couldn't wash her hair and we taught her, she STILL can't blow her nose or tie her shoes-- whether out of laziness or because she really doesn't know how. I can't tell. At least these kids are well fed and not beaten and no alcoholics live there. My daughter has never traveled with them or slept over. We have never allowed this because we know how abscent-minded they can be. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for the good advice and the listening ear!

Sounds like you have everything under control! You are a good mom.

I know a woman in her 30's, she is TROUBLE. Nothing but lies and drama! Lies that make no sense like saying somebody just gave her 3 baby calves, she got a free car from a little old lady, she stoled $200.00 from me and calls and tells me "you'll never believe what daddy just sent me, $200.00 cash". I even tell her to her face...Nobody just gives you calves, cars etc. She even lies about her children.
One day she told me she couldn't bake a birthday cake for her son because he got up in the night and ate the can of frosting...I went to her house early the next morning and found the boy with chocolate all over his face and he said him and mommie was eating his birthday cake, I saw the cake! It was frosted and his older sister said her mom was lying about the frosting. I don't understand the reasoning behind her weird stupid lies.

Her husband says she has always been this way, lies all the time. She is not welcome at our house any more. She is too weird for me. Life is much nicer too!

For some it may be a phase,lack of self-esteem or just a learned behavior to avoid punishment.

That said I hope Cynic never has to face mental illness in a loved one.

The mental illnesses mentioned are very real and while as another poster said "you can't counsel a psychopath" (not the best term since it paints with too broad a brush) you can treat the disorders ,most of which are found to be based on chemical imbalances in the brain.

Until the stigma of mental illness is eradicated we will have damaged people wandering through our lives and societies. Mental illness must attain the same status as physical ills.

Perhaps then we won't have to wait until the sufferers commit crimes and enter the criminal system by which time it is usually too little, too late.

Thank you, wildchild, for your post. I agree with every word of it. Attributing the least bit of out of the ordinary behavior to a mental illness is ridiculous.

Of all the careers or occupations that one can choose in life, it's really sad that there is no training/education routinely offered on how to be a parent.

Counseling won't help a psychopath. But, not everyone who lies IS a psychopath. 'Talk therapy' alone won't help someone with brain disfunction any more than it could help a diabetic. It can help, but without meds to correct the disfunction, it's a waste of time and money.

New research is making it possible to distinguish between clinical brain problems and behavior problems. Great progress!

Our VNA used to offer parenting classes geared to different age groups: infant to two; two to four; etc. I was surprised that parents would only attend the section relating to the age of their eldest child -- never looking ahead. Maybe that's an illustration of how hard it is to learn parenting skills 'on the job'!