Need two new Heat Pumps - comparing Trane / Carrier / Lennox

12 years ago

I have read with interest previous posts regarding the 3 brands I have listed in my subject line. These are the brands that were recommended to me for comparison as the top brands in quality.

I got a lot of good information from your posts and have some ideas of what to look for in the units and what to compare between them. Howvever, I am a single mom and I don't want to be taken advantage of by a salesman.

Can you give me some advice on appropriate questions to ask the dealer / sales person?

I have a two story house at just under 3,200 sf. I have two units which are 16 years old and both have leaks in the coils of the air handlers. My electric bill is budgeted at $350.00 / month.

The first floor is about 1400 s.f. and uses a 2.5 ton Trane XL 1000 HP.

The second floor is about 1800 s.f. and uses a 3 ton Trane XL 1000 HP.

I am planning to install 15 seer units. Price will play a big part in my decision as this is going to be a very expensive repair / purchase. I live in central Florida and a/c is used the most with the heat being used less than 14 days or so per year.

I read on one of the posts that Trane's higher price may be due to their advertising. Do you agree?

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Comments (3)

tigerdunes
12 years ago
Sylvia

Non coastal location?

I prefer a small dealer where owner is actively involved in business, sales and service/repair.

Not a fan of Lennox heat pumps.

Here is my checklist. Correct sizing is important for comfort and operating cost.

there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and
inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty compressor and parts
AHRI matching number for the system quoted

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on location and winter climate, I would not purchase a new HP
system that did not have electronic demand defrost feature. Electronic demand defrost eliminates unnecessary, nuisance, and expensive defrost
calls. Not important though for your location.

Trane and it's dealers do think highly of the brand, sometimes a little too much. Look at their sister brand, American Standard that is very similar and usually priced better.
IMO
creekdweller
12 years ago
I don't mean to be butting in, I am no expert, but my husband has been in the a/c business all his life. Which is UM, a LONG time.
All the units you named come off the same assembly line. One goes one way, and a name is put on it and another goes down another line and a different name is put on it.

Just IMO that I have heard all our married life.

Creek
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What concerns me is them quoting very large backup heat furnaces. I'd be surprised if you needed over 100k backup heat. Was a load calc performed? Lennox or Trane either way you would get a good system if installed properly and sized properly. I sure hope Trane would make some changes. 2-stage would be beneficial for humidity control, but not necessary by any means. What coil was quoted for the Lennox setup? If using a Lennox CX34-49C coil, the G60UHV-60C-110 furnace would make the system qualify. If they use an Aspen coil they don't have to oversize the furnace.
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Wow, you gentlemen respond very quickly. Thanks for that. And apparently, I'm not at my sharpest in the middle of the night. That power rate was incorrect. I only provided the fuel charge. Adding all the pieces together comes to $0.11579 (.0782 summer rate, .00144 transmission rate, and .03615 fuel charge). As for the other questions/comments: * I did worry about the lineset diameter and confirmed for the length, turns, and elevation change online for the Lennox. It won't even have a 1% drop in efficiency. The Bryant salesman with 17 years experience told me the lineset works. All the contractors told me the lineset works for a 2 ton but not a 3 ton. Additionally, replacing the lineset adds roughly $1,000 to each bid. * Only one of the contractors specified a 3 ton unit and there expected the unit to always run in the low speed except during extreme circumstances. * The Bryant does come with the Evolution controller t-stat. * Demand defrost - I couldn't find any mention of this for the Lennox online, so I will pose the question to the contractor. I did find this text on the Bryan installation instructions -> "The control board accumulates compressor run time. As theaccumulated run time approaches the selected defrost interval time, the control board monitors the coil temperature sensor for a defrost demand. If a defrost demand exists, a defrost cycle will be initiated at the end of the selected time interval. A defrost demand exists when the coil temperature is at or below 32_F (0_C) for 4 minutes during the interval." * I will ask about the staged heat strips. Austin generally only has 24 hours or less below freezing and maybe two months where heating is used. * Tigerdunes - what do you mean when you say the prices are "very frisky"? * We certainly are having more and more hot summers. It struck me that at least a couple of the contractors were eager for the business as they were ready to do the work within a day or two. How over priced do you think these prices are for premium equipment? I am leaning toward the Lennox due to the 10 year warranty for labor and the Internet enabled thermostat that allows me to adjust it from my iPhone when I realize we are out of the house for a while. Additionally, the salesman was more pleasant to my wife and helpful to me without the constant adjustments in what he is selling me. Thanks again for all the advice. It is invaluable in making sure I get my money's worth. Regards, Trevor in Austin
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Never a bad idea to replace the copper lineset, but oftentimes it is very difficult if not impossible (think about condo complexes where the lineset often runs between walls of other condo units). If reused properly (i.e., blown out with nitrogen with a deep vacuum) and the proper size, they don't always have to be. The leak is most likely not within the lineset because it is one solid piece throughout. 2 stage units provide an advantage in terms of humidity control; however the 16i and Carrier models (and any brand using an unloading Copeland scroll compressor) run at around 80% capacity on low, so there isn't a huge turndown for the price premium. While I prefer Trane equipment over Carrier myself, both manufacturers make excellent equipment with comparable warranties, and both should do a fine job if installed properly. I think in this case, if looking at 2-stage units, the Carrier system with the Infinity control is the better system simply because the Infinity control does a much better job controlling the system than does a standard 2-stage thermostat such as the 802. Looks like the Carrier dealer finds that your home needs a 3.5 ton system (or 4 ton if 2-stage) while the Trane dealer is quoting slightly larger equipment. Something to bring up to the Carrier dealer. However if 3.5 tons is indeed the proper size, and a 4 ton is installed -- while it would not be a major issue in terms of comfort or efficiency -- the 3.5 ton would certainly be better in terms of humidity control and efficiency because it would not be short cycling as much on milder days. The single stage Comfort 15 with v/s air handler and the TP-PRH control will also do a good job with dehumidification without the added cost of 2-stage, but with the rebates and the Infinity control I think the Performance 16 is the better choice if going the Carrier route. I realize I haven't exactly convinced you to go with either system, but know that either one should do a fine job if sized and installed properly. The installer is key. All in all, I think you'll get the most out of the Infinity system.
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I agree, With a 2 stage system, there won't be much difference between the 2. I would suggest the NATE dealer if for no other reason than they take the time to be educated and really, the installing dealer makes a big difference in the satisfactory outcome. They will have more resources to fall back on if they run into a question on your job, and they will also generally have a more thorough understanding of the little things about unit start up and such that can make a big difference in the long term performance of the system. This is not to say that the other sources you have mentioned may not be fine. It is just my opinion that dealers who care enough to take continuing classes and training will probably care enough to satisfy you better. As to heatpump vs AC. The advantage of a good heatpump with a low ambient control is that you can run it for heat when the outdoor temperature is around 30 or higher. A good Thermostat will automatically switch your system to furnace from heatpump based on the outdoor temperature. You are insightful enough to realize that is it usually either cool and mild, or really cold where you are. That is why the heatpump is such a good fit.
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mike_home
12 years ago
What you said is partially true. Carrier, Trane, and Rheem build equipment in their own respective factories. These factories may also build equipment with other brand names (Bryant, American Standard, and Rudd). Carrier has other brand names such as Payne which also may be built in the same factory.

All the brands use components made by third party manufacturers. The components will vary in specification and performance level. The overall design of the equipment will determine how well these components will perform over a long period of time.

The statement that equipment from all brands is the same is misleading.

Need two new Heat Pumps - comparing Trane / Carrier / Lennox

Comments (3)

tigerdunes

creekdweller

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