Uneven subloor in a 3/4' unfinished Hardwood floor install

16 years ago

I am posting this as a new question because I was afraid it would get missed otherwise, and I am really hoping for a quick response.

OK, more problems with the floor being out of flat now in the kitchen. I want to address this now and NOT tear it out later. There is a 3/8" dip over a 5' span in the subfloor. No gap between the subfloor and the joists that I can see that would allow me to put shims in from below to try to level it. I believe there is simply a small dip in the joists there.

Can I fill the dip with something like asphalt roofing tiles, or since I may not have enough of those in the basement, inexpensive peel and stick vinyl tiles in 2-3 layers in the deepest portion of the dip, then 2 or 1 layer and then none as the dip comes back up again? I could purchase only as many as I needed of the vinyl tiles, and the adhesive might make it more stable. I would then use screws if necessary to fasten them to the subfloor and nail the hardwood right over them and into the sublfloor below, using long boards that span the entire distance? Or I could purchase more asphalt roofing shingles if it would really be preferable for some reason. I am using 2" L cleats and a pneumatic nailer to install the hardwood. Or should I just use the long boards and allow them to conform to the dip in the subfloor and resign myself to having to live with a less than perfect floor in an older home?

By the way, I was told roofing felt was no longer used under hardwood because it leads to dry rot, although I have no idea why. I do want to make sure roofing tiles or vinyl would not cause a similar problem.

Sue

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Comments (8)

bus_driver
16 years ago
Conditions within a building might hasten deterioration of hardwood flooring, but the roofing felt being the primary cause? Balderdash! 3/8" is a lot of dip in the floor. If the top is leveled and later a correction is made from below, the resulting hump will be a disaster. Get some good on-site pro opinions before installing the flooring.

Here is a link that might be useful: definition
hendricus
16 years ago
Find the offending joist, loosen the subfloor till it is level, sister a 6' 2x4 or 2x6 to the joist, refasten the subfloor.
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You need to do a little more archeological digging still. You need to know the whole construction of the floor before you can decide how best to install something new. I'd take up that plywood piece in the kitchen and see what's under it. It's higher than the surrounding floor, so needs to go. You should also be able to see from there what subfloor is under the original kitchen hardwood. It's too bad the space under your entryway is finished, but I'd still do some exploring from below to see what's under there, and to figure out the fix to stop it from squeaking. Is it drywall below or a drop ceiling? I know it probably seems like a pain to tear out drywall, but if you cut out a clean patch, like 2' x the width of the joists, it'll be relatively simple to repair. Just make sure to cut it down the center of the joists so that there's room to screw the patch piece to it later. Cut the hole under the area that squeaks the most, if you can. Have someone walk on and watch the floor from below to see what's moving. It might be as simple as pounding in a couple shims from below, or face-nailing a loose board from above. You want to find out what's underneath the hardwood. It might be laid directly on the floor joists, or there might be 10" wide boards that the hardwood is nailed to. Another thought is to take out a board in the hallway, since that's not original and you want to replace it. See what the subfloor is there. I am a bit puzzled at why, when you've stripped the kitchen down to the original hardwood, it's still higher than the hallway floor. Is your current surface perhaps not the original kitchen hardwood? Peeling back the plywood area will help determine that. BTW, I haven't heard of that stop squeaking product you linked to, so can't offer any personal opinion. And don't pour self-leveling compound over top of hardwood. It needs to go over plywood.
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Here is my take... Since the existing is flat, it tells me that the existing was installed at the regions average MC, or gaps were left in it during the installation if it took place in the low humidity season. Acclimating a floor in a low humidity season, and installing it tight, is just as bad as no acclimation at all. There is a documented average regional moisture content for wood. Each species of wood has what is called a shrink & swell coefficient. It is a number so you can do the calculations to see exactly what the wood is going to do given a rise or loss of moisture content. If the wood is acclimated to the heating season or season of low humidity, gaps need to left in the field of the installation, so when the humidity does rise, the wood doesn't compress the edges, in a cupped appearance and eventually buckle if it is excessive pressure. Proper acclimation isn't just sitting the wood in a room. Actually far from it. I'd say improper acclimation issues, brought on the condition your seeing. Cupping from a wet humid basement or crawl space, will show up faster then 5 months. Take all that with a grain of salt... I'm sitting here, and not there with my moisture meters.
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Redroze, I'm just getting back online and seeing your questions, so I'll try to answer what I can. My new floor in the LR/DR was not pre-finished, it was all site-finished. I did put a pre-finished floor down in my office (no pics, sorry) because I work from home and didn't have time to be without my office for the week it would have taken to have floor sanded etc. The pre-finished does have a different feel to it than the site-finished. I wouldn't say it's grooved, just a more defined difference in between the individual planks. The office doesn't adjoin any other room, except the tiled hallway, so I didn't worry so much about the wood being different there. I see from your pictures what you mean about running the planks the same way and wanting to be sure things don't look odd. One idea might be to take up some of your FR planks, like the first 12 or so, and then put them back down interwoven with the new planks. That way there's not a clear line in between the 2 rooms, but rather a more gradual blending. Here's another couple of pictures, this time of my family room. The first one is a before shot of the hardwood floor + a rug-like carpet. The floor created a frame around the carpet. I had the carpet taken up and new hardwood put in where the carpet originally was, then everything sanded and refinished. You absolutely can't tell where the old wood was vs where the new started. In this case, the new is random width because it opens directly to the kitchen (as opposed to the LR/DR which is all the same width). So, one house, all new site-finished floors in the LR & DR, all new pre-finished floor in the office, original/refinished in the kitchen, and half&half refinished + original in the family room. Boy did we have dust! Hope this helps! New:
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sue_ct
Original Author
16 years ago
A reputable GC I called already was not much help. Would you recommend another GC or a flooring contractor? Would a hardwood or other flooring contractor do the subfloor if I was having him install the floor?

Sue
glennsfc
16 years ago
Hendricus's advice is good. Some independent flooring contractors will do some minor structural reinforcements. You'd have a very difficult time finding someone from the typical flooring store to do anything of that nature.
sue_ct
Original Author
16 years ago
OK, thanks, I am going to try this myself. With 2 layers above the joist, a layer of decking and then subfloor, I am not sure how difficult it will be to loosen it up. When I get some help to move that darned heavy refrig out of there I am going to try to shim it from below. Wish me luck.

Sue
glennsfc
16 years ago
Good luck.

It helps to dig into the subflooring at the nail sites and pull out some of the nails as you attempt to loosen and remove the surfaces.
sue_ct
Original Author
16 years ago
Ha! Looks like this won't be nearly as hard as I thought. I was was able to move the refrig myself and then go measure where the low spot was and find the area in the basement. The shims went in much easier than I thought they would. I wonder if the weight of the refrig was responsible? The dip is almost gone in about 30 minutes of work. Now there still seems to be a little dip between the joists where sheets of plywood meet. I may have to add an additional joist there if I can get it in, unless someone can tell me and easier or less expensive fix for that. I will have to see when the rest of the kitchen cabinets come up, if there are any more dips that need to be fixed. This could run into time, money and more muscle than I have if I have to add a lot more joits. Anyway, I am waiting for help to add the 2 x 6s along side the joists to support the new height of the subloor. A woman I work with was able to give me some directions as well as what I got here, and a firm "now go do it!" that I apparently needed. Sounds harder and scarier than it really it. :)

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!

Sue
glennsfc
16 years ago
Sounds like you are doing a great job there. Glad to hear that the kitchen dip fix is turning out easier to do than you had expected.

Gee, maybe you'll have another skill that you can market someday!

Good tools and learned skills can lead to a successful DIY project. And this is for everyone...work safe and respect your power tools and wear the recommended safety gear at all times.

Uneven subloor in a 3/4' unfinished Hardwood floor install

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Uneven subloor in a 3/4' unfinished Hardwood floor install

Comments (8)

bus_driver

hendricus

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