tracyandwarren

if I was building a new large two story home and electing to have one system with zoning controls, then I would want the best.

option #3

and you should qualify your builder's HVAC sub's experience and history with zoning controls. Go look at a recent job and talk with homeowner.

Is sub a FAD for Bryant?

and I would ask why the metal ductwork running throughout home will not be insulated with R6 or R8?

IMO

Tigerdunes thank you so much for your help in this question and my previous one, I really appreciate it!

Do you think we would be better off just getting 2 separate units rather than doing a single unit with zoning controls?

Is there anywhere reasonable to cut costs on option 3? Could I stick with the Evolution controls but downgrade the furnace to the 2 stage in option 2?

Is it mostly the evolution control/communication that makes option 3 better?

Thanks again!

Warren

2 separate systems have their benefits:

- Independent systems for each floor, so minimal temp difference between floors. Best control of temp and comfort, no complex zoning controls needed.
- Always have heat or a/c on one system if the other system fails.
- Con: more expensive than zoning.

FYI: If I were spending as much $$ on a new system as you, I would negotiate a complete 10 year parts and labor warranty from the mfr to cover your high $$ investment. TD asks if they are Factory Authorized Dealer - FAD - guarantees that you are satisfied or equipment is changed.

Make sure a Manual J heat gain / loss calc is done on the structure to determine proper system sizing.

On new construction, I would opt for increases in energy efficiency - insulation, windows, doors, etc. Although not as sexy as granite countertops, hard wood floors, and the latest hi-tech media room, energy efficient improvements pay for themselves over and over again as long as you are living in the house.

PS - I am from South Philly.

Good luck.

Thanks for the info garyg! I'll ask him for an option with 2 separate systems. Should they be more basic systems then? Each would be single stage/single speed? I assume we still want 90%+ furnaces and 16+ SEER AC's?

I don't know if he is an FAD, as I don't see his name when I put in our zip on the Bryant site, but I'm pretty sure we have no choice over who the builder uses in this case. He has been very accommodating and willing to put up with my questions so far, though I realize that doesn't say anything about his skills one way or the other.

I asked about Manual J and they said they have one for our floor-plan.

Regarding insulation, they're doing 2x6 construction, R-38 ceiling, R-19 walls, and low-e windows. I'm sure we could do more though.

Thanks again for any info on what we should look for in our 2-system option.

-- Warren

P.S. Great to get help from another Philly person! Thanks again!

tracyandwarren

I agree with everything that Gary posted.

You can always cut price with brand and equipment selection. However I think you have to balance that with comfort,operating cost, and most important your satisfaction. I will assume that you plan to live in this home for a long time and that the HVAC costs will be incorporated into the mortgage(if there is one). Like many things quality and overall satisfaction are long remembered over price.

I personally am pulling together some budget numbers for a complete kitchen gutting and makeover and it is quite clear that this will cost me more than my first home purchased over thirty years ago. Sure, I can cut some costs but really they are incidental and marginal and I probably would not be happy with the outcome. I just am relating this for you to think about.

If two separate systems, I would keep the same system option #3 for downstairs although the sizing will change. For upstairs go for a more basic system with either AC or HP (depending on your electric rate).

One more negative on the one system zoned is the amount of space taken up for the chases. I did not look at your plans-did you have a basement?

I am not against zoned systems and I don't mean to repeat myself. But you have to thoroughly qualify your dealer's expertise/experience in this area. More chances for screwup on zoned system than two separate systems. I don't mean to scare you.

Good load calculations for equipment sizing and good ductwork design/sizing are a must whether zoned or two systems.

And I do think it gives a homeowner a certain amount of protection using a Factory Authorized Dealer(FAD).

IMO

That insulation package looks good - 2 x 6 construction is outstanding.

Regarding multi-stage, multi-speed equipment: they are more for comfort than enery savings. However, most pro's will tell you that zoned systems work best with multi-stage / multi-speed because the system btu ouput can be varied based on what, and how many, zones are calling for heat / cool. You don't get the full btu output if only 1 zone is calling, which is good.

If you go 2 separate systems, they don't have to be identical. You can get the better furnace for the first floor. Talk about the options with the installer.

I would get the best gas furnace efficiency that you can since Philly is more of a heating climate than cooling. As far as a/c goes, 16 SEER is a two-stage compressor system. If zoned, I would have it. If not zoned, a 15 SEER single stage should do just fine.

Good luck.

I asked about Manual J and they said they have one for our floor-plan.

If that is really what they said, it is a great big warning flag.

A Manual J has to take into consideration more than the floor plan. It also has to consider things like construction; solar orientation; overhangs; types of windows and the glass in them; type, locations, and amounts of insulation.

Far too many HVAC contractors simply base the requirements on the home's square footage. They frequently oversize the systems, with resultant extra initial costs, higher operating costs, and shortened system life.

I suggest you buy a short term copy of HVAC-Calc and run your own "Manual J" to verify what they are proposing. It isn't expensive or that difficult, and it may be eye opening.

Here is a link that might be useful: HVAC-Calc

We built our home 5 yrs ago and went with Carrier -- Bryant is their other brand, same eqt, less money. We built ICF and also put our money into insulation, windows, etc. and have 2 systems. One for each end of the house (one end is 2 story loft, bedroom, media room over garage). We insisted on Man. J and Man. D (ductwork) for the house.

We went with a variable speed, 2 stage Infinity furnace (your Evolution brand) and a single stage Performance AC. Infinity (Evolution) controls. We have not looked back and a system failure at one end still left us w/ AC that covered good enough for sleeping at night.

Insulate and seal everything. Evolution gives great air speed control and great humidity removal during AC, which is vital.

Hi Everyone,

Following your advice I went back and asked for options with two systems instead of just 1 with zoning. I now have 3 more options, and I'm even more confused. Any advice on these three options would be greatly appreciated!

Each of these is priced in terms of how much the "upgrade" price is from whatever comes standard with our house.

Here they are:

Option 4:

Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
2-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 2-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunks
Payne 93% Efficient Gas Furnace with 2-Stage Heat and High Efficiency 2-Speed X-13
Blower Motor 60,000 BTuh Input with CNPVP030017 Coil
Air Conditioner: Payne 14 Seer A/C R410A PA4ANG024000
This Equipment Combination Achieves 16-SEER Efficiency
Upgrade cost: $8262.00

Option 5:
Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
1-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 1-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunk per System
Gas Furnace: Payne 92% Multi Poise Furnace: PG9MAB024040 with CNPVP2417ATA
Air Conditioner: Payne 13 SEER A/C R410A PA13NA024000
Upgrade cost: $9240.00

Option 6:
Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
1-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 1-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunk per System
Payne 93% Efficient Gas Furnace with 2-Stage Heat and High Efficiency 2-Speed X-13
Blower Motor 60,000 BTuh Input with CNPVP030017 Coil
Bryant #126ANA024 2-Speed Condensing Unit 2 Ton 16 Seer Legacy Series
Upgrade cost: $10,644.00

I don't understand what makes option 5 more expensive than option 4, or how to choose between these.

Any recommendations?

Thanks!

-- Warren

warren

same dealer as option #1 thru #3?

no offense intended but what are you searching for?

a price or a good system that will provide good comfort, operating cost, and ultimately your satisfaction?

I would rather go back to option #3 and have one system with zoning controls rather than option 4 thru 6.

one question that comes to mind? is basement below grade and will it be finished and used as living space?

here is my suggestion. if basement will be finished, then I would use option #3 properly sized and have main floor and basement zoned off one system. for top floor, I would install an 80% furnace with AC or a high eff HP with air handler-my decision here would be based on electric rates.

here are my reasons against option #4 thru #6. While Payne is sister company to bryant and Carrier, it is usually regarded as low end. I would not have it. For the main floor, you want 95% eff furnace, not anything less and you want VS blower, not the x13 which I might consider for upstairs. The Payne condensers are low end. And I don't understand why the supply and return trunk lines would not be insulated-they should be R6 at minimum.

as I stated no offense intended, you asked, I answered.

Best of Luck with your project.

IMO

Thanks again Tigerdunes! No offense of course. I really appreciate your feedback. I'm just looking for the best places to spend limited resources. We really probably don't have the budget for a $10,000+ upgrade, so our goal is to get a reliable system that keeps upstairs and downstairs comfortable without having to over heat/cool either. Efficiency is important, but I'm not sure the difference between 92% and 95% is big for us, unless it impacts comfort or reliability.

We don't have a real choice in contractor, as we need to use the one working with our builder.

The basement won't be finished.

What will the impact of the Payne condensers be? That they'll be more likely to break?

Thanks again!

-- Warren