And unless I am not understanding what you are saying, why wouldn't it be for everyone...just as corned beef and cabbage is not only for the Irish, nor fish on Friday only for Catholics?
If I am remembering correctly, your family is Italian, and I might say that spaghetti and meatballs are for everyone.
I spent my growing up years where Jewish foods were a way fo life. I don't think I ever thought of bagels or even matzo as a Jewish food...just bread and crackers. My decidedly goyish great grandmother made a baked noodle pudding, with cinnamon and nutmeg and cheese blintzs are really the same as cheese filled crepes, and challah is really brioche with oil or margerine in place of butter.

As for the Jews attaching foods to rituals, everyone does that...fruit cake at Christmas and Pandoro, hoppin John at NewYears, lamb or ham at Easter and the host at communion...we all associate food with celebrations and rituals.

Half of my family is Jewish and the other half Italian Catholic....and when it comes to a religeous holiday....everybody eats! I have been known to serve a lockshen kugel with baked ham...no one seems to mind.
Linda C

This Jewish woman is smiling here at what you've written. It is wonderful to enjoy multicultural and multi-ethnic rituals and foods. Obviously there are some obligatory exclusions due to dietary restrictions, but breaking bread together and experiencing diversity give one a pan-optic view, It is difficult to be a raging bigot when educated that the "other" is not alien, just different.

Food is omnipresent in our culture; you can't get two Jews together for 10 minutes with food being eaten or talked about. LOL

So share away!

BTW, Literally, that is Hebraically "Goyim" means "Nations" and refers to other, non-Jewish peoples. The Hebrew word exist in prayer, but it has come to be used derogatorily, that the Latin word for nations, "gentile", has been substituted widely.

Renée

Bubbe,you're amazing! I always learning something from you, thanks!

Great post, Disney, but somehow I bet Gefilte fish is not for everyone, LOL! and I'm waiting for Annie to chime because she's honorary having lived through the fish :)

Bubbe, you said it, all is takes is ten minutes and food, LOL! My gandma would call at the beginning of the week to give me the menu of what she was making me when I came to visit! I rolled my eyes back then, talking about food. Now I'd have what to say :) I agree with what you had to say, and at our table we have a little bit of everyone!

One of my good friends refers to herself as a shiksa, all in good fun, I think LindaC refered to herself in some posts as shiksa, and that word also can be thought of as a derogatory term, but they aren't using it that way. but I guess you can take any word and make it derogatory, depends how you use it, they were using it in fun.

OK, Carol, just for this thread I'm commandeering Ashley's laptop (which I just hate to touch, it's such a PIA).

Of course Jewish food is for everyone. Carol's kids got chocolate bunnies and mine got gefilte fish. So is Irish food, Spanish/MExican food, Italian food. It's a very good thing.

I do try to learn why I'm eating something, the significance of the item, and I have to tell you that horseradish with brisket is a wonderful combination and it's good with gefilte fish too, plus I know what the "bitter herbs" are supposed to signify. I'm not sure I want that egg for fertility though!

I've met a couple of wonderful friends who are Jewish, as well as Southern Baptist, heathen Methodist like me, Catholic, whatever. I even met Elery via the internet, what a great place.

Truthfully, I think we've gotten more riled up over grits and cornbread than we ever have about religious differences, customs, traditions, beliefs. I love the friends I made here and don't think they need to agree with me on everything, nor I them. WE just have to be kind and tolerant and the love of good food brings that all together nicely.

Yes, I think maybe all of us can be right, somehow. Grandma used to tell me that if I could go through life doing as much good as possible, being as kind as I can, and doing no one harm intentionally, I'd be all right in the end. I believe her.

Annie

Not sure that was a great trade, Annie, we got the chocolate, you got a lump of jellied fish? LOL!

Gefilte fish. Yaag! :P

My mother converted to Judaism when she was in college (I believe a crush on a Jewish professor was involved). Anyway, she was sporadically Jewish through most of my childhood, meaning that sometimes we kept a kosher kitchen, sometimes we had bacon for breakfast. It's hardly surprising that the religion didn't "catch" with me, since the training in it swung wildly from intense to non existent.

However, some of the foods she learned to cook from her MIL (she did eventually marry a Jewish man, though not the professor, before she divorced and married my father...and divorced again.) did "catch" with me!

Challah, matzoh balls, latkes. Yum. Gefilte fish was one of those foods suddenly and infrequently sprung on us kids without warning, and the only way to choke it down was to slather it in so much horseradish that you couldn't really taste it. Of course, they came out of a jar, they were not home made.

I have since had fish "cakes" from various other culinary traditions and enjoyed them. So at times, I wonder if I should try making gefilte fish from scratch, maybe it would taste better? Plus, I'm older now, with different tastes. But then, I hardly want to go to the trouble if what I'm going to end up with is like what I remember!

I have my mother's cookbook..."The Complete American-Jewish Cookbook", edited by Anne London and Bertha Kahn Bishov. From what I can make out, it's sort of a Fannie Farmer meets someone's Bubbie...general recipes interspersed with Jewish recipes, a whole chapter on Passover foods.

Anyway, the recipe for gefilte fish calls for "pike and carp or pike and whitefish", none of which I've ever seen available in the grocery store or fish monger's. I don't know if these fishes are an East Coast thing, or an Eastern European thing, nor do I have the first idea what to substitute from our California fish markets.

What an interesting thread. I'm learning stuff, and laughing at the stories and memories y'all are writing about.

Someone here recommended Michael Pollan's new book, In Defense of Food, and I've just finished reading it. In it he points out that traditional diets tend to be much healthier than the newer western diets with processed foods (and I'm not talking about weight loss diets, but the whole of what a people eats from day to day and week to week). It doesn't even seem to matter what the diets include, considering the diets historically consisted of what was available to the people where they lived, hunted and gathered.

Thanks for such an interesting thread.

Sally

I guess I have always thought that all foods were for everyone. Indian curries, various Asian foods, Italian, French, Greek etc..

I grew up in the Toronto area, where there is a large Jewish community. So eating matzo ball soup, brisket and smoked meat sandwiches, bagels, lox, latkes, etc... was common. There are so many wonderful Jewish restaurant/delis, some Kosher and some not. Matzo ball soup was one of Matthew's first foods.

Matt's grade school was 50% Jewish. So at Christmas I would bake Christmas cookies with the kids and another mother would make Potato Latkas.

One of my favourite memories was having the honor of cooking the briskets for a friend's Passover dinner. There was usually 30 or more around her table for the holidays.

Carol, as much as I like gefilte fish I might have to agree with you on the chocolate. Especially if it was milk chocolate.

Rachelellen, I'm not a 100% sure but I think that you can make Gefilte fish with almost any white fish.

Ann

I agree that all foods are for everyone, but I think that disneyginger has a good point. I think some cultures' foods are way more in the main stream than others'. Italian, Mexican, Chinese are more common than say, Indian, Korean, Vietnamese, for example.

Unless you live (or have lived) in a place where Jewish food is readily available in local restaurants, or where the Jewish population is very high proportionally, you might not have been exposed to many of these foods. There aren't a lot of places like that, most of them being in the northeast part of the US and southeast Canada as far as N. America goes.

Especially since "Jewish" is a religion, and most other cultural foods are associated with countries or regions, it's probably even more unknown to many. So I think disneyginger's point is that many people who haven't even considered making Jewish food, should, and that maybe the reason they haven't is because they just don't know enough about it, what it is, what ingredients are needed, what kind of taste to expect, etc.

And isn't that kind of discussion what this forum is all about?

OH, and let me say, that although I'm Jewish, because my heritage is middle eastern, the vast majority of these "Jewish" foods are things I learned about or tasted after I was an adult, because most of these dishes were developed in the eastern european Jewish culture. So, just as many others of you, I didn't grow up eating matzo balls or gefilte fish, etc. It's always fun to learn about new foods and recipes, and the traditions that accompany them.

I find the world shiksa offensive and that is from personal experience and am not crazy about the word goy/goyim either.

I understand they are sometimes used in a humorous way but it doesn't change my experience.

Well, I couldn't live without bagels but if I had to choose I prefer Middle Eastern foods. Love falafel!

Good Grief! You guys take things in a way that is meant to be negative! LOL

Jewish foods are for everyone. There are not too many places to get Jewish foods, other than deli offerings in most communities. I am not aware of any fine dining options or famous chefs that offer Jewish Food as their mainstay.

And, many people are unfamiliar with Jewish Foods being wonderfully for everyone.

In our community, two of the Synagogues offer great events that educate those who choose to come, which are people from the general population to those who practice the Jewish faith. They offer the basics of what is a menorah and what are the various Jewish Holy Days, like Yom Kippur or Passover, and lots of things like why and what the traditions are and why they have been kept for thousands of years. It is a terrific offering for our community. They also provide lots of Jewish foods and it is offered several times a year and brings a faith that is sometimes misunderstood into the light of the grace the Jewish faith gives to each of us and the world.

However, my post wasn't about exclusion, it was about how cultural differences add so much. And to me, the Jewish religion and culture is important in many ways from sharing with some of my friends to understanding the geo-political issues of our time. And, through my friends as well as these events, I love many of the foods that are commonly associated with the world of Judica!

I am blessed to have many friends who claim the Jewish faith and they all vary in their practice of their faith. But, we all talk a mile a minute and we EAT!

Food is a huge part of our sharing. It might surprise you to know that I often times help my friends with making briskets, soups, and I make dozens of honey cakes and chocolate honey cakes for my friends who do not practice kosher standards, (my kitchen is clearly NOT kosher!).

If we of the world could all sing and eat together, the world would probably be a peaceful kingdom of happiness and fun!

Lighten up some of you, you're taking this way too intense! LOL

I suspect that what you were trying to say is that Jewish soul food is delicious even if you are not Jewish, just as Chinese food is delicious even if you are not Chinese (or Jewish! LOL!)
But you got a little off track trying to equate Judaism with latkes and gfilta fish. And the word "judica" refers to the 5th Sunday after lent from the words "judge me..."
I think the word you were looking for was Judiaca, which means "Jewish items".
And "Jewish" is not a faith, Jews are a people, even unfaithful Jews eat latkes. If the mother is a Jew, the child is a Jew. The religeon is learned, the identity inherited.

As for fine restraunts offering what you call "jewish food", that food that you think of as Jewish is mostly Eastern European and was eaten by those who came to this country as immigrants. Think of it, most of the wonderful Jewish soul food is from the less desirable cuts, like brisket, chopped up carp, a beef casing stuffed with suet and cereal, or a soup made of chicken feet and wing tips with a dumpling made of matzoa floating in it.
There are many fine Kosher restraunts, but outside of an offering of soup or perhaps a traditional dessert, they offer Steaks and baked potato (but no sour cream with that!) Fine wines and carefully prepared fish and chicken...no kishke nor tsimmis!
Yes we all need to eat and laugh together, but don't fail to realize just how mainstream and common certain foods are.

And "Jewish" is not a faith,

huh??

Just because some people who are born into a particular faith choose not to practice it, or pick & choose what they practice, doesn't mean it's not a faith. You could pretty much say the same about any faith, couldn't you?

I think the word you were looking for was Judiaca

I think it was in fact "Judaica." I can't imagine a better demonstration of why it's a good practice not to jump on people every time someone makes a silly little typo. No one is immune, even the jumpers themselves.

You're ALL right. "Jewish" is both a religious identity AND an ethnic/national/cultural identity. So "Jewish" is analogous to "Hindu" -- but in other ways also to "Italian" or "African-American" or "Chinese." (And of course, as lowspark, a Sephardi Jew, points out, there are MANY sub-ethnicities involved -- "Jewish" food in Casablanca or Calcutta isn't bagels and pastrami!) There are, of course, atheist Jews on one hand, and on the other, religious Jews that have every cultural affiliation you can name.

So if someone, perhaps the OP, were focusing on the religion, it wouldn't seem strange to remark that Jewish foods are for everyone. I understood that to be the perspective.

As for "shiksa" being offensive -- well, I can't say it isn't, at least sometimes, and I don't use it. But as you are probably aware, Jewish humor and language are full of ironies and triple-twists. So someone will call a gorgeous baby a little shiksa, and it's a compliment (one based on self-deprecation, of course, because shiksas are considered so beautiful and thus the Jewish boy's dream, and yet a self-deprecation that is itself somehow something in which to take pride -- see what I mean about the triple twists?!), and many non-Jewish women take delight in calling themselves "the book club shiksa" or whatever. Marnie Nixon, working with so many Jews in musical movies, used to refer to herself as "Nixie the Shiksie"! As Bubbie points out, "goyim" means "nations" in Hebrew, and it doesn't have the same mildly negative connotation as it can when used when speaking English. Nor does it always have a negative connotation in English -- e.g., "Is the party at the Jewish country club or the goyish one?"

You have to take a lot of sociology into account in trying to deconstruct a term used by a group with a persecution complex, don't you!

As for gefilte fish ... I was forty before I learned, to my shock, that anyone considers it weird! I always thought of it as a very basic, everyone-eats-it food, even a perfect early food for toddlers. I've tried making it homemade twice, with only B- results, though. I don't see why people would think salmon patties are ordinary and quenelles are a gourmet treat, but gefilte fish is weird. If you don't like the jelly (neither do I), just push it aside. Anyway, my whole family loves it, and we eat it all the time (a leftover piece is a perfect breakfast). There, a good example of Jewish sub-ethnicities: I am a Litvak (Lithuanian Jew) -- we love all things salty and fishy. And keep those raisins out of our bagels! :-)

Costco has the only Jewish restaurant in this town and I see a good cross section of the population enjoying it hardily. I don't know what that proves but it is what I have observed.

Bubbe, first they have to play jewish geography and get that out of the way before they can really get down and into serious food talk.

Here's a story that had my Jewish friends rolling on the floor:

I was living in DC, and the Carnegie Deli of NYC had opened a little branch in the area. Great stuff. Mammoth sandwiches, incredible cold cuts, all the wonderful kosher comfort food you could want.

My sister came up to visit me from Louisiana, and I wanted to expose her to a cuisine that she had never experienced.

After looking over the huge menu, she orders a sandwich: turkey on white bread with a glass of milk.

Hi all. I just want to say that some of us have not been exposed to Jewish food, and wouldn't have the slightest idea of "whats what". I was born and raised in Minnesota. There are a lot of foods that I haven't been exposed to! Traveling down to New Orleans a few years ago I tried Jambalaya (heard of it, but didn't know it). I have a friend from Baltimore who is just amazed that I have never had a crab cake! It's something you just don't see on the menu here.

Sad thing is, I was in Florida this past January and we went to eat at a very homey mom & pop style diner that served breakfast and lunch. A good deal of the selections sounded Jewish. I asked the waitress about one particular selection but I can't remember what it was called right now. She was not helpful at all, maybe she thought I was foolinig her asking what it was. Her answer was, it's a *****, ya know? So I went for the usual breakfast combination. It would have been helpful if the menu was more descriptive like a menu in a Chinese restaurant that gives a short description of the ingredients and if it's spicy or not. Personally, bagels are the only Jewish food that I've tried to my knowledge and I love them! Discovered them about 25 years ago and I'm 47.

I hope I don't sound ignorant, even though I am! I'm just trying to bring up the point that some of us have not been exposed to Jewish food. The posts here do sound intriguing, I might add.

Listen, Neesie, don't feel bad. I am Jewish to the bone, and here is one of my favorite stories:

In 1978, I was 20 and moving from Boston to NYC for graduate school, and I was looking for an apartment one day. I was very hungry but in a big hurry, so even though I knew that the food in a subway station kiosk wouldn't be the best, I stopped and looked for something that would be cheap and filling. I saw some large, square, doughy pillows and asked the young African-American woman behind the counter what that was. "That's a knish, Honey!" she cheerfully yelled.

Only in New York, hey?

I mean, I knew what a knish was (dough around potato or meat or kasha filling), but in my home town of Milwaukee, my mom's home town of Portsmouth, VA, or Boston, I had only ever seen little, round ones -- these were as big as hamburgers.

If you are trying to appear "in the know," be sure to avoid the shibolleth of "lox" -- a dead giveaway. The other day I was at a post-bat mitzvah brunch, and a lovely gentile lady commented about the lox that "they went fast." Lox is an "it," not a "they." Like "butter" or "water." The "x" sound fools people. Anyway, if you say "the lox are ...," you will be as obvious as .. as turkey on white bread! :-)

But don't worry about it. No matter what you call anything on the table, nothing thrills us more than to hear that you love our food and will let us feed you and then feed you some more. Eat, eat!

neesie,

I think I am about where you are about Jewish Foods, since I am learning and trying African foods.

I now love food choices that are common in Tanzania and I love Ethiopian food. I love the injera that is made like a thin but bread like crepe. I really like it when I can get it made out of the teff flour that is customary in making it. The flavor is different than just wheat flour and the texture is a bit different and we like it better.

I love the spicy dishes that sit on the injera. You eat it with your fingers as you use the injera to hold the food sometimes, or take a two finger and thumb hold of a bite of the various options. And all of the choices we've ever had are very spicy or heavily seasoned. Red chile heat, gingery, cumin and corriander, cinnamony, curry flavors, just delicious!

The food is like many of the foods that we were so unsure of and didn't know what the words meant or what we'd get and we weren't adventurous enough to try what we didn't know.

I know that while I may have had access to and feel comfortable making what many consider "Jewish Food" on a regular basis for our meals, I know that not everyone has the same comfort zone.

Through food (and music and art), I really think the world can find harmony, peace, and understanding.

So, whatever the foods you see, whether you think they are religious in nature or cultural or just something you can't pronounce or know what it is, it is great to find a place like this that discusses it in depth, shares their different takes on what it is and what it isn't.

So, to me, "Jewish Food" isn't unusual or something different, it is common to me and comfortable and I know many of the recipes and enjoy them.

I am really trying as I am now in my 60's to reach out and try more foods of the world and to expand my palate and my understanding.

Plus, being just the two of us and having enough money to try new things really helps. When we had the kids at home and college educations to pay for and helping with car loans and home loans and that sort of thing, we could barely rub two pennies together for heat!

It is a terrific thing to have the internet and research and be able to make foods we want to try at home too! I really was turned onto Thai food through sites like this and on the internet. And, we have tried Korean food too. I really like Kalbi for short ribs!!

So the discussion isn't about whether the word "Jewish" is a culture, a religion or something geo-politcally involved in the world, we all accept and know that "Jewish Food" is something that not everyone has access to understand or try!

But, 'Jewish Food' is for everyone! Whether it is a High Holy Day for the many various Jewish families or it is a Sunday barbeque after going to a Baptist Prayer Meeting for others. The food is great and it is a wonderful way to share cultures and understand all the people of the world.

It would have been helpful if the menu was more descriptive like a menu in a Chinese restaurant that gives a short description of the ingredients and if it's spicy or not.

The lack of description of a dish on the menu is a pet peeve of mine. I've seen it in Chinese, Mexican, Indian, etc. (you name it) restaurants. I've never understood why they assume you'll know what's in a particular dish, particularly when the name of the dish is a foreign word*.

Nowadays with so many people on special diets or with allergies, it seems to me that it would be in any restaurant's best interest to list ingredients for any dish, even what they might consider to be "obvious" ones, especially since every restaurant makes things differently.

gellchom, thanks for introducing me to a new word: shibolleth.

*Ok, reading that over before I posted reminded me of something. Many years ago at some local Mexican restaurant they not only described the dishes but included pronunciation guides. I was young, keep in mind, but we laughed our heads off at Taco (TAH - ko). WHY do I still remember that?

I've always thought all foods were for all people unless there is a religious preference or particular distate against some of them. Some of us have never been exposed to various groups of ethnic foods. I've never been exposed to Jewish cooking for example. I'm sure I would like it as well as other cusines I haven't been exposed to. And I'm always looking to try foods from different lands. Of all of the ones I have tried Chinese is my least favorite. I haven't tried much Russian food as there doesn't seem to be any Russian Restaurants in the places I have been.

Ah, NYC, where every food imaginable is just a neighborhood or block away!
DH and I ask, "what do you feel like eating tonight?" And the possible answers are endless. That's one of the main reasons I love New York; for the diversity, and it's not only the food that's colorful, the people, clothes, all of it.

Renée

I seen this today while searching for Jewish pickle recipes: A Jewish man walks into a deli...while pointing.. says to the kid behind the counter "I'll have the salmon on a roll" the kid says "Sorry sir thats Ham!" The Jewish guy replies..."You know you gotta big mouth!" LOL...safe to say we all love good food!

I agree with Lowspark-All Foods are for Everyone. I love Chinese, Italian, Mexican, Jewish, German, everything! If it can be cooked and cut up, I'll eat it! My best recipe is for what I call "Jewish cheesecake"- three bars of cream cheese, a cup of sugar and six eggs, a teaspoon of vanilla extract, blend together, pour in a graham cracker crust, cook at 350 for 45 minutes, I got the recipe 30 years ago from my Jewish pal Laura.

Ooh, lowspark, "shibolleth" is a terrific word, and with a really interesting history: check out http://www.lesjones.com/posts/000378.shtml

We could really go on forever on this subject, couldn't we? And just to complicate things: anyone who's ever been in a Chinese restaurant on a Sunday night (and don't even talk about Christmas!) knows what the REAL Jewish food is. :-) That's the hardest part about Passover for me: a whole week without Chinese food (no rice or soy sauce for us Ashkenazim ...).

No Pasta!!! 8(

gell,
YA!! That's the exact site I ended up at when I googled the word shibolleth before. I will be working on ways to work that word into conversations! LOL

As you know I'm not Ashkenazi, I'm actually Mizrahi, my parents came here from Egypt and their forebears were from the Middle East. Funny thing is, we always had rice at our seders! When I got married the first time, some friend of my in-laws' once said to me in a sort of rude accusatory way, YOU can eat rice at Passover! As if I'd been permitted by some special edict to be exempt from punishment for a crime. I was completely taken aback. Since then I've thought of many retorts which I was much better off not thinking of then!

I don't serve rice at my seders now, only because I always have Ashkenazi guests and I don't want to make them uncomfortable. But we do eat rice, corn, etc. during the week. NO pasta though!

In Israel, many Ashkenazim eat kitniot, too -- it actually made it really hard for me to find American-style KP stuff, because stuff there is marked KP even if it has kitniyot.

I have heard that some US Conservative congregations are starting to switch over to allow kitniot, too. I can't wait for that wave to reach Columbus!

Our former rabbi OK'd kitniyot for our (conservative) congregation years ago, and actually emphasised that we should embrace that. I honestly don't know what our current rabbi's stand is on the issue. But I do know that very few took the instruction to heart -- hard to break those old traditions!