I'd have to ask if you feel her son is safe and well-cared for? If not, there's an immediate problem that has to be addressed and whether or not you want to, you might have to consider calling the authorities to see that he is properly cared for.

It is true that in some cases, extreme messiness and 'pack-rat-ism' can be a symptom of a type of mental illness. Have you talked this over with anyone who has professional knowlege and who might be able to offer some concrete advice? You might want to ask your dr. or clergyman if they think this gal needs some medical or counselling help--and get their suggestions on how best to approach her about the problem.

Messy is one thing (my house often is a bit out of place, too), but from what I'm reading, I'm worried about whether or not this is a safe, healthy environment for a small child. Not bothering to keep track of and use his shoes sounds a bit unsafe for one thing. Good luck--he's lucky to have someone who cares enough to look out for him.

"I'd have to ask if you feel her son is safe and well-cared for? If not, there's an
immediate problem that has to be addressed and whether or not you want to,
you might have to consider calling the authorities to see that he is properly
cared for."

Thank you. From what I understand, the Law says you must provide food, clothing and shelter for children. yes; she does this. Always has. But there are HUNDREDS of gray areas;
circumstances that No One has ever addressed to me on the internet. For example: she has a friend whose daughter is clean and fed and her mother is successful. But she has to start counseling since the mother CONSTANTLY leaves her with babysitters and always has. We don't know what the child is doing but the mother assured my DD that her DD is going to begin counseling. Mom is also promiscuous. BUT, she does have food, clothing and shelter.
My DD has left my grandson with a sitter (her friend)twice. Other than that, I am the only person who has ever babysat for him. Where she goes, he goes. Therefore, I have always felt he was "safe."
Two years ago I had reason to call Protective Services.
They brought Policemen with them and took the child to a hospital. Result? Tooth decay. I've taken care of that.
So I guess you could say his teeth aren't safe. Three mos ago I took him to a pediatrician. Result? Perfect health,
mentally advanced.
He is, as we speak, asleep on his bed probably with a dirty face. In a big house next to a National Forest with his parents, in bed w/a dirty face. She is going to cook BBQ in a hole in the backyard lined with rocks.
What I'm saying is: different people and different societies have varying ideas about how kids should be raised. It's not a cut and dried issue. He has slept in bed with my DD since birth. Normal in the USA? It's unusual; depends on which doctor you're talking to. In other cultures it's considered cruel to put them in a separate room.
So, the bottom line is: IMO, he's quite safe in quite a mess. thanks, binkie

It might just be that messy is her comfort zone. You say you are messy too and if she grew up that way she never learned how to organize. Personally, I've never understood the packrat mentality but I know plenty of them. Is the house infested with rodents or insects and is the food kept wrapped and dishes cleaned in a reasonable amount of time?

I am somewhat concerned about you grandson's teeth. How is it that a child that small has root canals and extractions? Does he have soft teeth from medications; is he being taught (and supervised) proper oral hygiene? Does his father plan to support him when he leaves?

You do have reasons to be concerned. If your daughter always been a collector maybe it just looks junky because she keeps adding things.

She was careless about his teeth. Lazy about them.
She hasn't seen a dentist herself in 3 years (I just paid for her to go). So this was a neglect situation. Or is.
You know? Now that you mention it, I'd say she's better about the kitchen bit than I am. I'm pretty much a kitchen slob. But I actually use my closets! I have clothes hanging up in them! I taught her and her sister to brush nightly.
Neither house is infested with rodents or insects but she did leave one or more windows open and june bugs had flown inside and were congregating on the kitchen ceiling. We haven't put the screens in yet.
His father is SAYING he'll pay child support but he won't.
He never has in 3.5 years after promising several times. But she believes him. He does, however, have a new Court Order to pay it for his OTHER daughter (and I bet he doesn't pay that either). Amazing how sweet and emotional these con artists can be. hmmmm...

Binkie, I don't know what to say about your daughter, seems to me she is a complusive shopper, which very well might indicate some type of emotional disorder. That and the pack rat syndrome sounds like it could be serious, or maybe she is just an adult who is in total rebellion of something.

Maybe you should back off in getting her things, this may be enabling her to depend on you for the real stuff, namely the repair of the child's teeth, new comforter. Or did you do this for your on peace of mind. (not the dentist visit) the comforter?

Would she be receptive to getting counseling? and if the dad does not pay, she just might have to move on enforcing the court order, unless you will be taking care of the child, and if you are, this will allow her to continue her unique lifestyle.

I've never heard of a child getting even one root canal on primary teeth. For a 3-year-old to have SIX root canals is bizarre. And a crown? On a baby tooth? No three-year-old needs a crown. Are you positive you have your facts right about his teeth?

Penny-the pediatric dentist told me the root canals and crowns would cost me $2300. The reason you've not heard of them needing this is that only 5% of toddlers need it; the rest have been taught to brush their teeth or mom does it for them. His last visit cost $390 ; $95 for an extraction and $95 for a "private room" since he is unruly, and 2 fillings. All the other children are in one huge room; it is quite a sight.
I have no faith in my daughter whatsoever that she is having him brush, even after all this. To suggest those feelings to her would result in her becoming angry and resentful of me (as usual). So when he smiles you can kind of tell you're looking at white crowns; they're a little off color or don't look totally real. But they don't look bad or anything. It has been a heartbreaking situation for me; I took very good care of both my daughters' teeth. My daughter was never what I'd call mainstream. But now at 36 with 2 failed marriages and living like a single parent (meaning "dad" is leaving saturday)life , in my opinion, overwhelms her. I don't think that counseling or pills can make a life normal, do you?

Wow, Binkie, something's wrong with that child's teeth. Did he sleep with a bottle of sugary liquid as a little guy? Does he have some underlying cause? Did he injure his mouth? Even if a child NEVER brushed their teeth, it would be extremely rare to have six teeth so decayed the root had to be removed by age three. Those teeth have only been in the mouth for about two years, give or take. I've had root canals and the pain before the root canal is severe. With six destroyed teeth, your grandson would have been in screaming agony and the decay in the teeth would be visible to any layman. Also, you might want to investigate another pediatric dentist. Charging $95 for the use of a room -- on top of the other charges -- is excessive IMO.

It's absolutely outrageous that the dentist charged for the use of a room. I've never heard of anything like that--my check-ups are much less than $95 and the dentist ONLY has private rooms. You should really make a few calls and see if this is customary in your area. I doubt it. And as Penny says, even neglect shouldn't have caused that much damage in just a couple of years. Perhaps the little fellow has a serious problem that should be looked at by an expert so the decay can be prevented from attacking those healthy teeth he has left (and his second teeth, as well). Perhaps you need a second opinion on whether or not he really does need all those root canals this guy is pushing. If I ran into a dentist who charged rent for sitting in his chair, I'd wonder if he might not be padding the bill in other ways, too--that is, recommending unnecessary work. I've known foster children whose teeth were neglected by their parents and I've NEVER EVER heard of one who had that much damage.

He's lucky to have someone who cares like you do--unfortunately, it doesn't sound like his mother is carrying her responsibilities too well.

Thanks, guys! My husband said the same thing about the room. Let me explain. The offices use 3 dentists. THEY ONLY DO KIDS. 99% of the children have their teeth done in one large room big as a triple car garage, no walls. BUT if there is a child who allegedly cries a lot and grabs things they have a small room w/a door and one chair called, The Quiet Room. I have a theory after reading your msgs; just a theory. I think most of these kids have insurance. My grandson is Private Pay (me), the dentist knows this so he Could be taking advantage. How can I know?
Taking a child to a regular dentist (I've never found one dentist who would even Look at my grandson at 2 and 3 years of age)is not the same. At this pediatric office they have young women who first show them cartoons and let them play with toys. While they are in the Private Room (I witnessed this)the assistant sits next to them and reads them kids books (I noticed she was showing him The Cat in the Hat by Dr Seuss when he tried to sit up, anesthetised). He is given a memory drug, Noctec plus nitrous. This attempts to erase memories of the experience. To answer the other inquiry: yes, my daughter OFTEN gave him Coke in his bottle when he was 2. I do not know if he had it in bed but I think he did. So the sugar ate thru the enamel. The next answer: I have learned that toddlers' enamel is Not like ours; it's much thinner and cannot take the assault of sugars on a regular basis.
Next, a baby root canal is Not like ours. He was not in excruciating pain before each baby root canal; the roots in baby teeth are Not like ours; they are very , very tiny.
At one point when he lived out of state his face became swollen. Daughter took him to the ER and they gave him penicillin. The tooth pain, what he had of pain, went away.
Months later she moves back here and I notice his finger is in his mouth frequently but he denies pain. I find out that my daughter "couldn't give" him any more penicillin because he "refused to take it and ran away." Therefore, at the last visit when he was to have the RC, the dentist called me in the back and said,"he has a triple abscess and I have to pull the tooth." So I wanted to strangle my daughter. I asked the girls who work there how to get medicine down a toddler when they run off. I was Certain they'd know; they work there. But they kept asking each other and came up with the idea of putting it in that strawberry liquid stuff you use to make strawberry milk. My daughter didn't even try to think of a solution and she's 36. My husband says that he must have a genetic weakness but I cannot find a dentist who will agree to this. Husband says, "do you think all those children in the deepest jungles of the world have no teeth?"
So, I don't know what to think. thanks, binkie PS he also charged $95 to pull the tooth plus $75 per filling.

I think both of you need to grow up and asume responsibilty. This child needs a stable household and better nutrition.
bobbie

marie-in what ways do I need to assume responsibility?
And grow up? She's 36 so I will be awaiting your reply.
binkie

As usual I opened my mouth and stepped into it, but buying shoes, clothes etc for your daughter is not going to make her accept responibility. I have a son who has gone thru very diffuclt financial times, and almost ended up on the street, because after helping him a couple of times, he refused to stop buying/charging etc. It really sounds like she needs professional counseling, because when the child goes to school, they WILL take over and you could loose the child. All it takes it ONE complaint to social service and BANG--no more family. Is she buying things to defy someone or to show someone that SHE is in controll now. You are very very lucky the dentist has not reported child abuse. Our state has very strict state laws regarding medical workers seeing and reporting child abuse, and it is not always spankings etc. Even poor health qualifies. When you do buy something for her, how does she react--or does she just expect it. What would happen it you/your husband, walked in and informed her that you were going to clean up/throw out and insist she NOT go to any more garage sales. You mentioned all the dental work and yes dentists are very expensive, but if the work is not done, it will permantly damage the permanent teeth. If she does not have the money, their are welfare programs. Also, consider his health. With all that sugar/coke, his bones could be weak, he could have diabetis, and his immune system may not be strong enough to ward off diseases. Has he had all his shots? If not, they will not let him in school. I truly feel sorry for this little one and I do hope that you might find someway to reach your daughter in regards to this child. I personally would tell her that I will take him, she cannot see him until she gets some help-- and I would do it thru the court system, but that is ME.
Marie

"..because when the child goes to school, they WILL take over and you could
loose the child. All it takes it ONE complaint to social service and BANG--no
more family. Is she buying things to defy someone or to show someone that
SHE is in controll now."

Marie, she had ONE complaint to social services and
BANG--family still intact. Even the POLICE came WITH social services and yanked him to the hospital and THEY give him a clean bill of health. This kid is never sick.
No; she doesn't buy stuff because she's in control now.
She partly does it because she has a BUSINESS of buying things for a dollar and selling them for $55. Does it all the time. Designer clothes and accessories. But I don't see how she could feel "in control" now. In fact, I'm not sure what you meant. I don't think even most Real adults feel in control in this day and age.
Does she expect me to buy her things? Hardly; I rarely do it. So she is happy when I do. Far as his teeth are concerned, I do not know why he wasn't reported but I suspect it's because the dentist would be on the phone making reports eight hrs a day and be out of a job if he did. Why? Because he's a pediatric dentist; he makes his living fixing childrens' teeth even to the point of taking some to the hospital to be put to sleep where he can crown the entire mouth. binkie

Hi,
I have a comment to make about the teeth issue. My niece who is a good mom.. has a 3 yr old daughter with similar teeth problems. Hers was caused by letting her suck on an EMPTY bottle all the time when she was little. My niece did not know that this too could cause harm to the teeth. The dentist said that the child's teeth need whatever from the saliva that the child would normally swallow if she wasn't sucking on a bottle (empty) all the time. Her teeth rotted from the inside out. The doctor noticed first and showed her that the enamel could just be flaked off easily.
I'm sure if the other child was given soda in a bottle it probably did eat the enamel...afterall , I've heard you can clean your toilet with coke. That it is that strong.

May God Bless all these helpless, innocent children.
...Brenda

A quick note, baby teeth can start to decay before they even emerge from the gums. Children allowed to take bottles to bed (even non-sugary liquids like formula or breastmilk, or even water) and have those liquids wash over their gums continually can end up with problems. Sippy cups also can cause this.

My niece is five, and has had four surgeries on her mouth. She brushes her teeth every day, the dentist said the damage was done before there was even enough tooth to brush. Brushing after every meal helps prevent NEW cavities, but the damage is already there.

A dentist may choose to put a crown on a baby tooth if he feels extraction would cause the teeth to move (and cause problems later on), if the tooth is "important" at that stage (used for chewing etc.), or the tooth underneath is not near ready to emerge (which would leave the gaping hole for too long).

It is also not unusual to pay special charges when dealing with a specialty dentist. Dsis pays almost 40 dollars more than I would at a dentist, because of the special attention the kids get, the hours the office is open, and handling of emergency visits.

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