Yikes 24 to 48 hours? I thought 12 hours was bad enough.

I wouldn't like not being able to distinguish between fat and meat either. Your steak does look good though. Too bad it was disappointing.

Ann

A big congratulation to you FOAS.

I am indeed very impressed. A very professional job.

Welcome to the interesting world of sous vide cooking, which is nothing more than precision temperature controlled cooking, which makes cooking fool-proof.

Your steak looks perfect, from edge to edge.
I had sous vide chicken breast tonight. Superb! I will never cook chicken at 212 degrees again.

I am ordering material for my second sous vide cooker.

dcarch

Really interesting. I hope to follow dcarch and you down this path in the next couple of months. I love creative, inexpensive things.

I complletely agree with you - being able to distinguish between lean and fat is very important. If I had gotten a piece of gelatinous fat in a bite, I would not have been able to finish it.

Good luck with the seafood experiement. I was disappointed in the couple of meals I have had prepared sous vire, so I've avoided it since.

Alexa

FOAS, one thing I have found with meats cooked sous vide, there is very little if any "bleeding" after you slice the meat even you cooked it rare. Did you notice that with your steak?

With sous vide, because of the absolute temperature control, there is no need to "rest" the meat. Meat is served hot without the cold exterior after resting. Perhaps this minimizes the lost of juice and makes the meat more tender.

John, it is very exciting that technology has gotten to the point that things are so affordable. I just bought another digital temperature controller for $18.00. A few years back this would have been in the hundreds of dollars. I need a second sous vide cooker, because many times I have two kinds of meat (surf & turf) and they need to be cooked at different settings.

dcarch

You are brave (and smart) to come up with that. If it doesn't cook meat to your liking, it looks like you could start your car with it.

Cool experiment!

dcarch - Yes I definitely noticed that. I had read that somewhere, so I sliced it the moment I finished searing it and it barely bled a drop.

I just skimmed over Douglas Baldwin's site again and the way I'm reading it he really only recommends long cook times for tough meats, which of course is not what I had. I have a hunch that was a good part of my problem.

Pam - too funny! But actually if it doesn't cook meat to my liking I'll more likely use the same set-up but different heater and circulator to make black garlic. And if that doesn't work, who knows, maybe I'll just make a gyroscope or drive long stakes into the ground, LOL!

Try it for a chicken breast roulade, around a ground chicken stuffing. Normally something that hardens up in cooking, but in sous vide it's fork tender all the way through. Prospect in San Francisco, Nancy Oakes' second restaurant, did it with a deep-fried chicken skin; e.g., taken out after the sous-vide cooking, and quickly deep-fried to make the skin crispy. All fat was pulled off the skin as much as possible.

One of the finest chicken dishes we've ever had, anywhere. The delicacy of the flavors really come out, so don't overseason the stuffing as one is often tempted to do.

"dcarch - Yes I definitely noticed that. I had read that somewhere, so I sliced it the moment I finished searing it and it barely bled a drop. "

That is a really interesting part about sous vide. All other cooking methods cause the meat moisture to evaporate due to heat, and the bleeding also drains moisture from the meat. With sous vide, lost of moisture is completely avoided. This may explain the exceptional tenderness of the texture, which is also a result from the long cooking time without overcooking.

"I just skimmed over Douglas Baldwin's site again and the way I'm reading it he really only recommends long cook times for tough meats, which of course is not what I had. I have a hunch that was a good part of my problem. "

As I remember, on the menu of that restaurant in Phili, which generated a lot of lively discussions here, they had sous vide Kobe beef. I wonder how long they cook the beef.

"---- And if that doesn't work, who knows, maybe I'll just make a gyroscope or drive long stakes into the ground, LOL! "

For those of you who are wondering what FOAS is talking about, go to "Conversations". It is off-topic to explain it here.

dcarch

"Posted by jkom51 "Try it for a chicken breast roulade, around a ground chicken stuffing. Normally something that hardens up in cooking, but in sous vide it's fork tender all the way through. Prospect in San Francisco, Nancy Oakes' second restaurant, did it with a deep-fried chicken skin; e.g., taken out after the sous-vide cooking, and quickly deep-fried to make the skin crispy. All fat was pulled off the skin as much as possible.
One of the finest chicken dishes we've ever had, anywhere. The delicacy of the flavors really come out, so don't overseason the stuffing as one is often tempted to do."

Great post.

Most chicken recipes cook chicken to 212 degrees F, which is significantly over cooking the meat. Even that you can get fairly tasty chicken if you season it properly. However, with sous vide, it goes beyond the skillful application of seasoning, it adds the dimension of natural tenderness "mouth feel" and natural "chickeny" flavor to the dish.

I play it safe by sous viding chicken at 160 F, that is 50 degrees below 212 F. Some do it at as low as 136 F.

dcarch

Great thread. This kind of information really belongs on CF. Even if only a few of us will be doing it we need to know about it. It's especially interesting now that there are more than one of you, which creates a dialog. Thank you very much, guys. Keep up the good work.

Thank you Pam for the unexpected chuckle.

Jim

FOAS,
Kudos for trying something new. Let us know how the technique works for other cuts.

Dcarch, I am puzzled about something. You mention chicken temperature of 212 degrees as the norm a couple of times:

"I had sous vide chicken breast tonight. Superb! I will never cook chicken at 212 degrees again."

"Most chicken recipes cook chicken to 212 degrees F, which is significantly over cooking the meat"

I agree; 212 degrees is criminal. Chicken done at that temp is sawdust, imo. But I am curious as to where you getting this information about 212 degrees. Even the USDA recommends an internal temperature of 160 degrees. We eat a lot of chicken breasts and I rely on a thermometer to cook it to 160.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA safe temperature chart

Jim, I am very sure that many people will start using the sous vide method. You can now buy a sous vide cooker for less than $300. A good bread maker, toaster oven or mixer costs you more than that. Sous vide cooking is simpler than using a microwave, a ten-year old can learn to do it.

Yes, thank you Pam. Funny!

Actually, I do use the same setup for a few other uses. I use it for proofing bread. No guessing precision repeatable bread proofing at exact temperatures. I also use it for seed starting in the spring.

dcarch

Again, thanks to dcarch and FOAS for being pioneers for our benefit; I'm gonna order some of that equipment soon.

What sort of pump (if any) do you use to circulate the water in the cooler? I imagine a small submersible pump would be adequate to equalize the temperature.

Whoops! I need to correct my statement of 160. The FDA says 165 degrees for chicken, not 160 degrees. I take it out around 160 and let it climb to 165 while resting.

Just want to keep everyone safe.

Jo

Arley - Go to eBay and do a search on VA80. This small cheap pump was plenty to keep the temperature perfectly even (as measured with my Thermapen) throughout the cooler.

Jo - I'll let dcarch explain his 212 logic because while I understand what he's trying to say, with all due respect I'm not buying it. ;-)

Although it's too late to teach this old dog sous vide cooking tricks, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading about your adventures with it.

I also wondered about the 212 cooking temp for chicken. I just made one last weekend and cooked it to 160, the same as jojoco mentioned.

One question I had was: what's the best way to reheat leftovers with the delicate texture from being cooked in the sous vide manner?

jojoco, if I understand him correctly, dcarch means cooking "at" 212 degrees, not cooking "to" 212 degrees.

dcarch, that is a good point about the potential for sous vide to become widely adopted. All the more reason for us CFers to start getting informed about it.

I've thought about the mushy texture thing mentioned by FOAS, and his idea that cheaper cuts of beef work better for sous vide. Even with conventional cooker, my preference in steaks is not for the most tender. I never order fillet mignon. To me it is mushy. I like something with a little chewiness, such as a strip steak.

Sous vide seems like it would be excellent for chicken. With conventional methods, chicken often tends toward dryness, especially the breast meat. The juices with their delicious collagen get cooked out of it and end up in the pot. One of my favorite ways to cook chicken is the Chinese method called white cut, which involves cooking a whole chicken in water, then chilling it quickly in ice water. Juices are retained within the meat, as apparently is the case with sous vide.

Jim

Would something like this heater be overkill? Rather than fiddle with an aquarium heater's thermostat, maybe something like this would be 'plug-n-play'. Or, for the average Igloo or Rubbermaid ice chest, what wattage/size of an aquarium heater would you recommend?

Now this is just rationalization so I can justify buying this toy, mind you (I do a lot of that), but you could also use that sous vide temperature controller and a heater to make up a huge volume of pure water at a certain temperature; this would be very worthwhile if anyone was making all-grain beer where the temperature of the mash water was critical. Hook up your ice chest filled with pure water, put the heater in it and the next morning start your mash with water at whatever precise temp you want. (Beermakers out there would recognize this as a heater for what they call a 'hot liquor tank').

Here is a link that might be useful: bucket water heater

1000 watts seems like overkill. Mine is 500 and I "think" dcarch uses 300. I'd be afraid of residual heat on a 1000 watt heater bumping the temp too much past where you want it. I could be wrong on that though.

I didn't want to fiddle with an internal thermostat either, so I bought a heater that does not have one.

Here's the link to a current listing on eBay. Note that in the description it specifically say it needs a controller. By the way, this was the most expensive piece of the set-up, followed by the cooler. (And now I'm realizing that the $28 cooler actually did push my budget just over $100. I could have used the one I already have but it's under snow.) Unfortunately I couldn't find someone local selling a similar non-thermostat heater or I would have gladly saved $12 shipping.

As for making beer I don't see why not, but I wouldn't use the cooler. The hot water had a definite odor, I suspect from the plastic, that said "don't make beer out of this water!" I'm sure an aquarium heater itself is fine though, after all they don't kill the fish.

Here is a link that might be useful: 500 watt heater

I also am seeing the post about cooking chicken to 212. If that has been the norm, perhaps that's why some are so enthusiastic about sous vide. See dCarch's post copied below.

Most chicken recipes cook chicken to 212 degrees F, which is significantly over cooking the meat. Even that you can get fairly tasty chicken if you season it properly. However, with sous vide, it goes beyond the skillful application of seasoning, it adds the dimension of natural tenderness "mouth feel" and natural "chickeny" flavor to the dish.

I play it safe by sous viding chicken at 160 F, that is 50 degrees below 212 F. Some do it at as low as 136 F.

dcarch

LOL, Linda! That paragraph wasn't clearly written, but again, I'll let him explain what he means before I respond with my issues with the logic.

It'll be interesting to see if interest for the home cook picks up. I'd bet people are going to make themselves sick. If you're interested, check out Douglas Baldwin's web site. He seems to be an accepted authority on sous vide food safety and when you look at some of the time/temp/thickness charts, you might wonder how smart it is that Wms Sonoma puts out a video that simply says 30 minutes at 147 for chicken breast. That might be safe if the breast is 20mm thick, but it won't be safe if it's 25mm thick.

Here is a link that might be useful: Douglas Baldwin

I will answer other questions later. I am now just taking a coffee break from work.

Regarding circulating pump - A small aquarium submergible one will do fine. I bought my 91 GPH for $10.00

There are many options for an electric immersion water heater:

1. 300 to 500 watts are plenty to maintain set temperature.

2. You can operate a high wattage heater by using a motor speed controller to throttle it from 0 watts to full watts. There is an advantage in this option. You can heat up cold water quicker using just electric heat. A motor speed controller is about $20.00 from Harbor Freight

3. This is what I have done: I bought a 2,000 watt heater ($10.00 shipped free, eBay). Why the heck do I need a 2,000 watt heater? The heater is rated for 240 Volts, so when you operate it on 110 V, it is only 1,000 watts. Then I connected it to a diode (solid state rectifier, $3.00). Since one diode is a half-wave rectifier, the setup is now only 500 watts.

CAUTION:
You must follow and understand the concept of electrical grounding, since you are working around water. It is not difficult to understand grounding. It is all about that third green wire and GFP electric outlet.

dcarch

With the exception of cooking chicken or other meats that you poke the meat with a thermometer, in most recipes the entire chicken or other meats will be ending up to close to 212 degrees. Chicken pot pie, fried chicken, braised chicken, stewed chicken, chicken ala king, etc. whatever.

Let me use chicken as an example. If you bake a 40 degree chicken from the refrigerator at 350 degrees, part of the skin will start to get to be close to 350 degrees because oil in the skin has a higher boiling point. Next the meat will get to be 212 degrees (ignoring salt and other chemicals in the meat which will actually raise the temperature to be higher than water boiling point). It cannot get any higher than 212 degrees, no matter how high you set the oven temperature. Instead, water in the meat gets boiled away quicker and the meat gets dryer and dryer.

The 212 degree hot zone begins to travel inwards in accordance to the law of thermodynamics and begin to heat up the center of the chicken. The rate of heating will depend on the thickness of the meat and contend of fat, because fat conducts heat differently.

Depending on your desired safety temperature and degree of done-ness of the meat, you check the inside temperature before the desired temperature is reached and remove the chicken from the oven to "rest" and let the "carry-over" heat to continue to cook the inside.

In this process, you are hoping:

1. You actually have probed the meat in the deepest and the coldest spot, and that in fact is the only coldest spot.
2. The carry-over heat is actually hot enough to continue to raise the inside temperature to the desired degree, otherwise back to square one and into the oven again.
3. Your expertise in guessing is superb and the carry-oven heat is not too much to overcook the inside. If this happens, the law of entropy makes it irreversible.

What is happening here, depending on the thickness of the meat, the progress of the heat travel will create a temperature gradient path from 212, 212, 212 --- 212 to 210, 209, 208, 207, ------ 170, 169, 168, 167, 166, 165. If 165 is what you desire then all the other parts of the chicken is overcooked.

With a sous vide setup similar to mine, the entire chicken can be cooked to 165 degrees, +/- 0.4 degrees, no more, no less, from skin to skin. Doesn�t not matter how big and how cold the chicken is. As a matter of fact, I often start out with frozen chickens without thawing; something you can never do with regular cooking.

With a PID temperature controller, I understand you can even achieve 0.01 degrees of temperature control, but I don�t see why you need to do that.

---------------------------------------
Regarding food safety. I don�t want to get into too much details. You will have to do your own research. Just a couple of general comments:

The safety guidelines given are also time dependent. In other words, you can go lower if you cook longer. For instance, the chart that I have shows chicken can be cooked at 136 degrees F for 63.3 minutes. I advice you to look further into this. Don�t take my word or anyone�s word for your and your family�s safety.

The safety guidelines are statistical based on the weakest segment of the population. You have to make your own judgment as to what is the margin that you are comfortable with.
-------------------------

Finally, I apologize to FOAS for hijacking his thread.

dcarch

First off, don't apologize - this is a sous vide discussion and you seem to be the only one here with much experience to discuss it.

What is happening here, depending on the thickness of the meat, the progress of the heat travel will create a temperature gradient path from 212, 212, 212 --- 212 to 210, 209, 208, 207, ------ 170, 169, 168, 167, 166, 165. If 165 is what you desire then all the other parts of the chicken is overcooked.

And here's where I understand what you're saying but don't entirely buy it because you make it sound so linear. With roast chicken I'd need to take temps at various depths to prove it. But with a hunk of beef you can visually and texturally tell that there's not a linear progression of doneness from edge to center. I like my beef at about 135 which is what I'd consider a touch over med/rare. 130 is rare for my liking, and anything approaching 140 is past it's prime. Personal preference, I know, but my point being there's a pretty small temp range that makes me really happy - maybe about 7 deg? Yet I can assure you that I've had plenty of roasts that were within this range for most of the cross-section of the cut. I wish I had a picture of my Christmas Prime Rib to prove it!

Incidentally, I used Cooks Illustrated's method in a low (250 deg) oven. I found, as they did, that "this one was rosy pink from the surface to the center." If any significant portion had been even just 160 where it would be grey - let alone 212! - I'd have not been very happy. Not more than 1/4-1/2" was grey.

I want to thank you for being very gracious. I don�t mean to steal the thunder from you. This is a thread about your admirable accomplishments. Not about what I know (or not know).

Let me first comment on your work. It shows there has been a lot of intelligent thinking went into putting it together, even it only took you about an hour�s work. Your use of a strain-relieve bushing for the temperature sensor cable for instance, not too many people would know enough to do that. The selection of a magnetic case is a very good one because temperature sensors are subject to interferences. The case is also a venting/non rusting case, which is very smart.

I can understand what you are talking about. I have actually seen graphs of thermal migration diagrams in meat, but I don�t quite remember the exact details, because it is not that import to me. There is only one thing that is of interest to me and that is; the sous vide method guarantees uniform temperature as per your choosing, and no other method can do that.

My uneducated guess is that the path of heat travel is more lineal than not. I can�t think of a reason why heat would choose to go slower or faster in some temperature deltas, but not in others.

Perhaps this can bridge your views and my explanations a little closer:

Can it be that the changes in color, texture, and taste of beef from cooking temperature changes in the range of your preference, may not be as drastic as you realize?

dcarch

Let me first comment on your work. It shows there has been a lot of intelligent thinking went into putting it together, even it only took you about an hour's work. Your use of a strain-relieve bushing for the temperature sensor cable for instance, not too many people would know enough to do that. The selection of a magnetic case is a very good one because temperature sensors are subject to interferences. The case is also a venting/non rusting case, which is very smart.

That's the laugh of my day! You give me far too much credit. I took apart a computer that's been sitting in my side yard waiting for me to deliver it to the e-waste site, meaning to salvage just the plug from it. Lo and behold, there was a nice box inside there which not only had the plug but also the master switch (and the ground screw!) and once gutted of the fan and whatever other crap was in there the box proved to be an appropriate size for my project. Saved me a bit of work and a trip to Radio Shack for a "project box." That was the extent of my thought process, LOL!

As for the temperature debate, I think the only thing left to do is for me to make a chateaubriand for Valentine's day and take multiple readings throughout the thickness. The last time I made one it appeared to be a prime specimen of cooked evenly throughout. Maybe I'll prove myself wrong - I'm not above that!

As I understand, sous vide insures a uniform temperature throughout the cooked meat....that means no overcooked crusty skin on a piece of chicken on the grill, no brown bits when cooking a rolled rib in the "conventional way", no caramelization of the brushed on glaze of a pork roast,...
I think I'll pass.....

Not really.

If that's the case, the high-end restaurants would not be going for sous vide cooking at all. There are many ways.

Here is one example. Sous vide leg of Lamb.

I started out with a completely frozen leg of lamb. It went into the cooker without being thawed, and it came out of the cooker without resting. After the cooking is done, I gave it a nice crust. For health reasons, I did not give it a very thick crust.

I decided to make this one medium, just for fun. Still wonderful tender juicy texture.
dcarch

How did you give it that "nice crust" without overcooking the outside?
Brush it with soy sauce?

Not really soy sauce.

After the sous vide step, I just replace the hot water with ice cubes to quick-chill the outside, then BBQed with a blow torch. Done.

Because the meat was first chilled so the quick BBQ would not over-cook the inside. Just a thin crispy layer on the outside. It is quite controlable.

dcarch

Great discussion. I do a lot of Stovetop Sous Vide aka Ghetto Sous Vide. I use a probe thermometer, large stock pot, lid and Ziploc bags and get great results. I am doing a London Broil right now but here are some pictures of some Stove Top Sous Vide ribeyes.

Raw ribeyes, seasoned, semi-vacuum in Ziploc

Cooked for 3 hours on the stove top at 131°F

Dried well, oiled, seared in hot cast iron pan. Sous vide always seems to make red meat seem raw since it cooks so evenly, but the texture was perfect, very buttery and tender

Charcuterie, [ I assume you are not a vegetarian :-) ] Very nice work.

I love the term "Ghetto sous Vide". I guess you had to go ghetto a little while back when equipment costs were several thousand dollars for one set up. Now, thanks to advances in technoligy, basically everyone can use this amazing cooking technique.

The money you saved actually can pay for the equipment. Meat shrinks about 16% in normal cooking, and sous vide is half of that. You can sous vide cheaper cuts of meat with the same enjouyment.

As a matter of fact I am sous viding a 7-bone medium rare steak now. You normally can only stew 7-bone steak cuts.

Hope to see more of your cooking.

dcarch

I definitely have a Sous Vide Supreme on my want list but since I recently dropped about $700 on a VitaMix set at Costoc it will probably be a while. :D

One dish that really fascinates me when prepared Sous Vide is Fried Chicken. Have you tried this before? I love experimenting with new techniques to improve fried chicken and this one is very promising. (My other favorite method is pressure cooker fried chicken but that's pretty dangerous if you don't have the right equipment!)

To make Sous Vide Fried Chicken soak your chicken in a strong brine for 30-40 minutes, rinse and soak in seasoned buttermilk for 8-12 hours. Season the meat with your preferred spices, maybe a little hot sauce or fresh buttermilk. Put the chicken in vacuum bags and cook at 160F for an hour. At that point you can dry the meat, coat in seasoned flour and fry it. Alternatively you can chill the meat down in ice water and hold in the fridge for quick frying later.

The benefit to that method is that you can do all of the prep work for fried chicken in advance. Also, there are no worries about undercooked centers or dried meat. The chicken stays incredibly moist and the flavors really penetrate the meat. It's great if you want to cook a large amount of fried chicken for a crowd in a short amount of time. It's also good if you want to fry chicken to order. One warning though, you might want to cook the chicken to 165 though since the USDA has recently revised their meat cooking guidelines.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hacking Your Slow Cooker: D.I.Y. Sous Vide Setup

As a matter of fact I have sous vided many deep fried dishes.

One the the problem of deep frying is over cooking the meat because you try to be safe and there is no way to tell by sticking a thermometer while you are frying.

Depending on the thickness and the kind of meat, as you said, I first sous vide to have absolute confidence that the meat is perfectly cooked, regardless it is thick or thin, then I either freeze it or cool it then deep fry it at the highest possible temperature.

It is amazing that you can have such crispy fried food without ever overcooking the meat.

I see possibly a roaster oven/sous vide cooker combo in the future. It is not that difficult to combine the two.

dcarch