Sorry to hear of your KA nightmare. I remember an Emeril Live show where he joked around about how many Kitchen Aid Mixers the show had burned-up and tossed in the trash.

I'd suggest saving your $1-bills (I do this throughout the year and have yet to save less than $500/yr., and as much as $1,000), have a garage sale, sell something, until you have enough money to buy a Zojirushi Bread Machine for making bread. It's designed to make bread and does it so well it's what King Arthur Flour Test Kitchens use INSTEAD of stand mixers for making dough.

I've never found a reason to own another stand mixer since the Sunbeam Mix-Master (purchased in the late 70's) met with an unfortunate kitchen accident. But when my first Zo died (from years of very hard use), I immediately purchased another one, and I have a new one in storage I got at a bargain price. Wouldn't waste another penny on a stand mixer.

-Grainlady

Grainlady, I absolutely agree on this one. When my current Zo dies, it's definitely getting replaced with another one, I love that darned machine. It makes 3 loaves at a time, and I use it a minimum of twice per week, often more.

I make consecutive batches on holidays, for fund raisers, family dinners, etc., and that workhorse Zojirushi never blinks.

I have the big Kitchen Aid mixer that Nancy gave me, but I've never made a loaf of bread in it. Divinity it's a champ, cookies, cakes, I've even mixed meatballs in the thing, but not bread. The Zo is too good at it and I can put all the ingredients in and just walk away, it takes no extra attention from me other than checking the consistency of the dough when it starts to knead and adjusting with more liquid or flour.

Judy, I'm sorry about the KitchenAid. They were great about replacing my food processor with the broken blade...

Annie

The first bread machine I got in the 80s was a Zo. It lasted a good while with a replacement pan. The second Zo had a long pan rather than a tall pan and did not last nearly as long. All of the Zo pans leaked around the paddle. That was replaced with a Panasonic. I liked it just fine. But in the 30 years I've had my Hobart KA, I have had three bread machines. Just don't appreciate that their life span is so short. When the last bread machine bit the dust, I went back to using the KA.

I never heard of a Zo before. I am new to baking. I got my KA pro 600 8 months ago too and love it for tea loaves and cakes. I haven't made anything else yet. However, I will look into the Zo. I would love to make my own bread. Maybe it can be a mother's day present

How much do they cost?

Cotehele, did something happen to your Hobart KA?

No, the Hobart is still going strong. It is not large enough for big batches of dough, but it's fine with a loaf or two.

The Zo bread machine is in the neighbothood of $200.

Is this the model you are talking about?

Here is a link that might be useful: Zo bread machine

The link is broken.
I don't know which model Annie and Grainlady have.
My last one was many years ago.

Mandie, I have the Zojirushi X20 model, it's not the mini, it's the big white one. I haven't had it 10 years yet, so who knows, but I'm sure I'll replace it when it quits after the thousands of loaves it's made.

I never bake in the machine, I don't like the crust, I only use it to knead the dough because I have some carpal tunnel issues that make kneading bread by hand painful. I'd pretty much stopped baking bread until I got the Zo.

Judy, after buying a couple of mixers and three bread machines, you probably should have just sprung for a big commercial bread mixer, it would have been cheaper!

Annie

Cotebele, I'm sorry it happened, but I'm not really surprised. As soon as KA started showing up at Wally World and Target, I knew the end was here for it. Your experience (on top of several others I've known) just convinces me I'm right about what happens when brands try to appeal on price point rather than quality.

I have to disagree with some posters.

Cotehele, I'm sorry you're having trouble with your mixer. I had my oven go out one Christmas and it was incredibly frustrating.

But I wouldn't draw any global conclusions about the reliability or lack therof of KitchenAid mixers as a whole based on the experience of one owner.

I don't know of any company that doesn't sell the occasional lemon. It doesn't mean all their products are bad.

KitchenAid mixers are made in Ohio. I value the fact that it's a domestic product. And I don't know of any other company that will send a replacement ASAP, no questions asked.

I have an old Hobart KitchenAid and a newer Pro 600. I don't know if the Pro 600 will perform as well as the old one (probably won't live long enough to find out), but I haven't had any problems since I bought it a couple of years ago.

I do agree that depending upon the stiffness of the dough, the load may have been beyond the mixer's capacity. Or it may have been a fluke. Who knows?

If money is less tight later, the Zo is definitely the breadmaker's dream. As Annie said, you can set the machine and go, which is a tremendous convenience. And I can't hand-knead or mix bread which has as good a texture or rise as I'll get out of the Zojirushi.

Carol

Judy, good luck with the next Kitchenaid. I got lucky - DH bought a Hobart KA back when he was a starving student, and my dad's wife gave me my mom's - she doesn't use it. I consider it my spare!

Annie, If I would have known! My second Zo had the horizontal bread pan. The seal on the paddle didn't last two years and it bent from the stress of kneading a 3 cup flour white dough. (That and pizza dough were all it was used to make.) Yours and Grainlady's get a lot of use and are having no such problems. Perhaps the pan was redesigned?

Carol, My experience is not uncommon with the non-Hobart KA mixers. In fact I was very hesitant to purchase such a mixer after reading that many, many people had the mixer fail within the first year of use. The tipping point was that KA replaced the broken mixers. It customer service had been less, I would not have purchased the KA mixer.

Jessy, My Hobart is the KA45. I wish it was a larger capacity model.

cotehele-

Do you submerge your Zo pan in water when you wash it, or fill it with water and allow it to soak? If so, that may have caused the problem with the seal on the paddle.

I remove the dough with a soft spatula. Set the pan aside and allow any bits of remaining dough to dry (which it does in quick order while I work with the dough). When the dough bits are dry, wipe them out with a paper towel or soft dry cloth. Now it's virtually clean. Wipe it out with a dishrag and dry.

If you bake in the pan and have baked-on bread, lay the pan on it's side and place a wet cloth (or paper towel) on any baked-on bread to soften it to remove it before washing. Never soak the pans in water, nor fill the pans with water to soak off baked-on bread.

The recipe I make every week (what we call "Everyday Bread") uses 4-3/4 c. to 5 c. 100% whole wheat flour (freshly-milled at home), which is a lot of work for a bread machine. Add to that all the dinner rolls, cinnamon rolls, English Muffins, hamburger and hot dog buns.... (all made with freshly-milled flour). I have never had a seal problem (knock-on-wood).

I've also done marathon baking Annie talked about. That's where you start one recipe, as soon as it's completed the kneading, you take it out and put it in a dough-rising bucket and start another recipe. I've done that for 4 or 5 consecutive recipes when doing a massive baking - like hundreds of small sandwich buns for a reception. If it weren't for the Zo, I'd have given up making bread because my arthritic fingers, carpal tunnel wrists and tennis elbow just won't allow it anymore.

I've owned two Zo V-20s (one is in storage) and one X-20.

I have friends who have the original S-15 (little one-pound bucket) and all they ever make AND bake in it is 100% whole wheat bread and they've used that machine once or twice a week for nearly 20-years, with one minor repair they did themselves.

-Grainlady

I'm so sorry to hear about your mixer....I have one of the older, heavy, professional style Kitchen Aid Mixers - it was a refurbished one that I bought at a discount mall about 18 years ago - it has run like a top ever since.

I'm glad that KA will replace your mixer - let's hope the new one turns out to be a winner.

Grainlady- More than 10 years have passed since my last Zo was replaced. I am sure I used water to clean the bread pan at times. I baked in the bread maker only when I was desperate for sandwich bread the next morning, which was a rare occurrence. The delay feature is nice. If I remember correctly, it only worked for breads baked in the bread machine. I timed it so the dough was removed from the machine (and cycle canceled) before baking began.

Your comments have caused me to consider another Zo. I could prep three doughs at the same time when baking for the Farmers Market. A couple of questions:
Do you use the complete dough cycle with two rises?
Have you used the programmable feature?

cattknap-thanks :)

I'm not grainlady, but if it helps, I do use the complete dough cycle with two rises, sometimes. Sometimes not, depending on the time I have, sometimes I just want to run it through a knead and rise, then I stick the dough in the garage or fridge for a cool rise, like overnight cinnamon rolls.

I have not used the programmable feature, but I've made a double batch of bread many, many times, with 8 cups of flour and the Zo breezes right through it without issue.

Mine was gifted to me, so I don't know exactly how old it is or how much it was used before Deb sent it to me, but I've had it at least 4 years and I've used it 2 or 3 times a week for 4 years.

Like Grainlady, I don't put water into the pan to clean it, I just use a damp cloth to wipe it out.

Annie

I got myself a Zo just before Christmas. The instructions say to fill the pan with water and liquid detergent, and soak for half an hour to clean it.

I had never heard that KA mixers had reliability issues. I'm sorry to hear you had problems with yours. I've had my 300w KA mixer for about 10 years and never had a problem, but I don't use it for bread dough. But I have used it with with the attachments, which, depending on what your doing, will put some strain on the motor as well. But I've been pleased with its performance.

I actually *just* purchased a new 475w KA, because Costco.ca just had a great sale this month, and I thought I'd upgrade and sell the old one. I haven't used the new one yet, but am looking forward to the test drive.

Thank you annie1992. The X20 is the Zojirushi BBCCX20 Home Bakery Supreme Bread Machine. That is the model I put on my wish list.

Thank you for that information cotehele

cc, I don't know about the newer ones, as I said, mine was a gift and the instructions said not to immerse the pan, so I figured that filling with water wasn't good either. The instructions did not say I shouldn't, I just inferred that.

Mandie, you are so welcome. I think I've sung the praises of the Zo here so often that they ought to give me a royalty, LOL, but I love that machine. So does the Monkey Princess, she has dibs on it, along with the Kitchen Aid, LOL. Of course, she's 6, so it'll be awhile.

Annie

Hi Judy, sorry you are having a problem with your mixer. My first one bit the dust and I never got it fixed. My second one came from a rummage sale for $20 and it is made by the Hobart company. I don't bake bread like you do, but when I do I use my bread machines for the mixing and raising. I don't bake in them, use my oven. I hope you can get a nice mixer. Now I have this Kitchen Aid food processor with the slicing blade wedged into the lid.......

Sue

cotehele -

I only use the Zo for mixing/kneading - it replaces what my hands used to do. I used to slowly add the flour into the liquid ingredients, and beat the mixture by-hand using a Danish Dough Whisk, and using as many as 500-700 strokes to develop as much gluten as possible while the dough was in the bowl. This cut down on kneading time and made a finer bread. When making dough by hand, properly mixing the ingredients is an important step people tend to rush through and not do a good job. If a shaggy lump of dough is tossed on the counter for kneading, then there wasn't enough time spent incorporating the flour into the liquid ingredients, and not enough gluten was developed before beginning the kneading.

When it comes to using the bread machine, I rarely allow the dough to rise in the bread machine, preferring to use a dough-rising bucket so I can make sure the dough doesn't over-proof.

Dough doesn't tell time, and all the rises are according to time on the machines. Dough ACTUALLY rises based on the ambient temperature, humidity, amount of sugar/sweetener in the dough, and the strength of the yeast. A timed rise is just a good (or bad) guess.

It's especially important when using 100% whole wheat flour to keep the dough to just UNDER "double" for the rise. Whole wheat doesn't have the extensibility bleached and unbleached flour does, so allowing the dough to rise to double is actually over-proofing it. If I'm not getting a good oven-spring, that means the dough was over-proofed during one or both of the rises and the yeast was spent before it hit the oven - which seems to happen when I leave the dough in the bread machine to rise.

When I use the QUICK DOUGH cycle, I can have dough in about 30 minutes. This includes pre-heating, mixing and kneading. There is also an add-in beep (about 25-minutes into the cycle) so you can add raisins, multi-grain cereal, etc.

Placing dough in a dough-rising bucket is a perfect little environment for it, normally taking anywhere from 20-45 minutes to rise (depending on the ambient temperature and the type of dough). I may decide to toss it in the refrigerator for a nice long, slow, cool rise to really develop the flavors. It's nice to have options.

If using the BASIC DOUGH SETTING, it takes 67-minutes for 2 rises (45-minutes for the first, stir down, and 22-minutes for the second) for a total of 1:50 for the entire cycle. So I save a lot of time there. I can cut that time by 45-minutes to an hour. Not that speed is everything, it's not, unless you are trying to get out several recipes in a 5-hour bake-a-thon. I also never make less than 2 to 2-1/2+ pounds of dough at a time. I can make 2-3 small loaves, or divide the dough for 1 loaf, 6 sticky pecan rolls, and a pan of dinner rolls (or 6 hamburger buns, or 6 hot dog buns) - all from one recipe of dough.

I can program my Zo, but I never have (I hate messing with electronics). I generally use the QUICK DOUGH setting - no rising in the bread machine.

That's the nice thing about a Zo, you can use it however you like, personalize the cycles to suit your recipes, and use whatever cycle works out best for you. I have a friend who programs hers for specific breads she makes. She sells her breads, so she has using the Zo down to a fine art. Choose to use the dough cycles or bake the loaf in it. Different strokes, different folks.

I do an overnight sponge for our "Everyday Bread", so the Quick Dough Cycle is perfect because most of the work was done overnight in the sponge. The flavors developed, the acidic kefir (or buttermilk) provide lactic acid to break down complex starches and irritating tannins in the wholegrain flour, and make the finished loaf easier to digest. Soaking also increases vitamin content and makes all the nutrients in grains more available. The sponge also makes the bread lighter in texture and color and I get a nice high rise not typical to loaves of 100% whole wheat bread when made with a fast mixing method associated with most of today's recipes and methods incorporated when using a bread machine.

The Zo X-20 has a Sourdough cycle, but once again, it's timed and I'd never use it for rising the dough. All starters are different. Some are stronger than others, so 120-minutes for a rise may be too long, or not long enough. So for naturally-leavened breads, I use the bread machine for mixing and kneading, but never for the rise.

-Grainlady

I've used the programmable feature on the Zo with sourdough breads and with sponges, poolish, levain (whatever you want to call it). Sometimes because of the nature of the recipe all I do is disable the preheat feature. Sometimes I change the length of the knead cycle or make other modifications. (I have never baked bread in the Zo so I can't speak to that.)

It's pretty easy to do a custom cycle. I've appended notes to some favorite bread recipes (memory going, LOL) so that I know exactly how I modified the cycle next time.

I think the newer Zo's offer more cycles than my older one does, so some of my customizations may no longer be necessary on those.

My DH (the technician in the family) looked at the Zo pan and told me there's actually no reason why it can't be immersed for thorough cleaning. He concluded the Zo company is being ultra-cautious in saying you can't do that. However, I've never made the attempt. It cleans easily enough for me if I just fill the pan with cool soapy water for a few minutes.

I've never had any problem with leaking or any problems period, and during canning season especially, my Zo gets a pretty good workout.

By the way, this is going to sound crazy, but it comes from Teresa Griffith, King Arthur's lead test baker: When you snap the pan into the machine and insert the paddles, they can either face each other towards the center or parallel so that they both point in the same direction. You'll get better results if the paddles are parallel, especially if you bake in the Zo. The loaves will be more level instead of sloping.

Getting back to the KitchenAid, I know there was a period of time when there were lots of problems with their mixers, especially after the company experienced a series of changes of ownership, and the quality was compromised with such things as plastic gears. Those KitchenAids were utterly unreliable.

KitchenAid has worked hard to upgrade the quality, returning to metal gears and offering a hard-to-beat warranty. I don't know, however, that they can ever return to the level of trust customers had with the old Hobarts.

I was gifted my Pro 600, but I have read reviews and know some people have had problems. I give the reviews some credence, but I also know people tend to write reviews when their experiences are either overwhelmingly bad or extremely positive. It is still merely anecdotal. I haven't been able to locate any frequency-of-repair statistics, which should be more reliable.

Still, if I were buying a mixer today, I'd choose a KitchenAid over a Cuisinart or a Viking because of their warranty.

If I wanted a workhorse of a mixer that will do bread and other ultra-heavy mixtures or big batches, I'd look at a Bosch or a Magic Mill (aka Electrolux). However, the price point is higher. DH found the Pro 600 he gave me for $175.00, which is only a few dollars more than the K45 he bought me 30+ years ago. Currently the Electrolux at Pleasant Hill Grain is listed for $569.00 for the least expensive white model. Since I have a Zo and generally don't do bread in the KitchenAid (though I have done a few 4-loaf batches with no problems), it's very adequate for my needs.

Carol

I just blew my KA 600 making marshmallows for heavens sake. I didn't even think to contact KA as it was out of warranty.

I also have had for a few years an Electrolux DLX which I think is too big for everyday needs but perfect for big batch bread baking. I sometimes use as much as 16 cups flour but supposedly it can handle 20 cups with ease.

I've been talking with dh about getting the new Cuisinart mixer. Anyone have experience with this model?

loves2cook4six, go for it! It has a 3-year warranty. I have the Cuisinart 7-qt for a couple of years now, and just love using it. It's tough on kneading dough.

I picked up a blown KA at a rummage sale for $10. Harvested the bowl & attachments as spares for my old Hobart KA. Really nice to have that second bowl.

Would love to have a lgr mixer but, sadly, I don't trust the post-Hobart Kitchen Aids. I've read too many 'My KA blew up' stories. Lusting for a 7 qt Cuisinart but maybe I'll turn up a large KA, Hobart era, rummaging this summer.

Annie, Grainlady & Readinglady,
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the Zo. I am glad to hear it is easy to use, tolerates marathon baking and accommodates large batches of dough. The programmable feature is promising. Many times I wished dough was ready for its first rise as soon as I was up and going in the morning. I just got a tall pitcher to use as a dough bucket. I love it. I doubt I would use the rise feature, but you never know...

Grainlady-I appreciate your many bread tips. What kind of sourdough starter do you use? King Athur has a starter, but I wonder if they are as good as the ones made from scratch.

The trouble with purchasing an expensive kitchen item is that it is tough to change my mind. I looked at all the recommended mixers-Electolux, Bosch, Magic Mill, Viking and Cuisinart-before settling on the KA. Wouldn't a trial period be nice to have before committing?!

My KA Hobart is over 30 years old and still going strong. It easily handles a batch of 6 cup bread dough. It was used regularly for kneading bread dough until about 15 years ago when I purchased an Electrolux. Since I make bread at least once a week, using 8 or more cups of flour, the KA only gets used now for cakes and cookies. etc..

cotehele -

I use a starter called "Everlasting Yeast". I got it from a friend who is well into her 90's and she has used it since she "set-up housekeeping" as a bride. She got it from her mother, as did all her sisters when they got married. Everlasting Yeast was popular around 100+ years ago. It works a little differently than traditional starters, but I use it in any recipe where starter is called for.

For people who don't need another "pet" (starters do take some care and feeding), I'd suggest going to King Arthur Flour and ordering an envelope of Lalvain du Jour Starter - choose from Pain de Campagne, or French Sourdough. There's enough in the envelop to make several batches of starter and you make the starter as needed.

A flour/water starter is just as "good" as any other - and the starter "purists" contend is "best." Whatever kind of starter people use is just fine with me. I've tried lots of different recipes over the years with all kinds of ingredients, and all of them worked, some worked better than others. It's the luck of the draw.

I WOULD suggest using a whole grain flour to begin a starter because there is more yeast on the outside of grain used to mill into flour than you find in white flour, which has been milled from the endosperm, but even bleached and unbleached flour will make a starter. Rye flour will ferment faster than other grains and is a good choice to get a starter going. Starters are about as diverse as the people who use them.

I usually feed my starter freshly-milled spelt flour (there are more carbohydrates in spelt to feed the yeast), but I'll change it to rye or wheat just as easily, according to different breads I make.

Back to the subject... When it comes to mixers, as with many other kitchen appliances, they were once made to last a lifetime of hard use, and most could easily be repaired.

Now they are pretty colors to "look good" and show up as a status symbol in a new "show" kitchen. Parts on these appliances that were made out of metal were switched out for less-expensive plastic, and that was when the dissatisfaction with the products began. My sister-in-law's KA mixer is 40-years old. She's a professional cake decorator, so it's seen more use than normal and is still humming. But there is little, other than the name, to compare the 40-year old KA with a new one.

I personally consider stand mixers over-rated and more often than not are used when a whisk, Danish Dough Whisk and mixing by hand would be more effective, or a hand mixer would be a better choice. I find more foods judge poorly at the Fairs because people use stand mixers where they really shouldn't. Tough cookies and tunnels in quick breads and cakes because they use a stand mixer and over-develop the gluten in the flour - when all they really needed was a Danish Dough Whisk for blending the wet ingredients into the dry.

Bread dough is aerated in home stand mixers and it affects the finished product because of over-oxidation. For industrial use, spiral mixers actually were designed to simulate the kneading performed in days-o-yore where two bakers, standing opposite each other at a dough trough, mixed the dough between them.

What many people fail to consider when using a stand mixer for making bread dough is the rpms of the machine. There is a "friction factor" associated with using machines for making dough. It's also a fact that gluten develops more quickly with a smaller batch than a large batch. So those are two more factors to consider when using a stand mixer.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Lalvain du Jour Starter

Sue-thanks! How are you surviving all the snow?

Grainlady-Thanks for the science of using stand mixers in making bread and instructions for making starter. I will try making my own or order from KA.