I've seen several complaints about new KA mixers and their lack of Schlitz, so to speak. Here's just one thread on KA's own website -- for those interested, many more to be found with some quick Googling:

http://forum.kitchenaid.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1979

So yes, they aren't what they used to be. I know you're probably disgusted with anything remotely associated with KA at the moment, but do look at the Hobart N50 -- about $1800 new, or about $800 used on eBay. Hobart and KitchenAid split in 1980, but they continue to share some selected designs and components. But the Hobart is commercial through and through...

I'd have to make sure this isn't just a passing phase before I spend that kind of dough for dough. :)

I do know that Hobart is a great name in commercial mixers, and instrumental in KitchenAid developing a fantastic reputation.

Wish I had seen that link about a week ago.

Well, this is just ridiculous!! I don't remember the speed I use to knead--it's pretty slow, like 2 or 3--but I regularly put 8+ cups of flour in my KA fliptop (less than 6 years old)!!!! Who the heck makes a 2 cup flour batch of bread in a big ol' mixer? Okay, pizza dough is heavier and denser than most breads, but you only had three cups, and you should have been able to do a double batch. That's what you got a 6 qt. mixer for.

Take them to small claims court. If the device doesn't work in a way that an ordinary home baker would consider normal without burning out then they need to make good. Get your money back for both units.

Take them to small claims court.

LOL Uh, you sure it's worthwhile? After all, maybe, just maybe you'd win. If you win, you'll likely get your filing fee reimbursed and if you win, you'll likely collect your judgement from them. But the bigger question, is it worth the airfare (or bus, train, auto, bicycle, moped or hitchhiking) to go there to sue them for a couple hundred dollars? And no, Conciliation Court will not award you travel expenses, motel costs and time off from work. Nor will they reimburse you for evidence or expert testimony as to what normal bakers use would be. Will your repair person come and testify for free? I doubt it. They have done a lot of research and obviously are making them to serve the market they're selling to, so how will you counter that? That's just some of the expenses you'd face, so I would think about that one a bit. Contrary to popular belief, it's not as simple as running down to the corner and filing a form, or calling Judge Judy's toll free number. :)

It's well known that the KitchenAid mixers sold now are not the units that were Hobart built. Many people are naive and don't know that, sadly. But since you can get your money back, do it. I don't agree with the choice to drop the quality of the units, but face it, would you pay $1,000 - $1,500 to get the old design? People buy cheap, and seldom use them for more than lightweight use. They realized that and now make a cheap unit, selling for a little over $100 and the vast majority of the market will be happy as can be with it. I shudder and chuckle when I see in the cooking forum how people wouldn't have anything else but a KA mixer. In one thread it discussed bread maker vs KA and I suggested that they're two different critters and not direct competition but boy, people get so defensive about their appliances!

It's really a sad thing to see quality go down. I think they should be heavier duty and meet needs of more people with heavier use. But, everyone who has purchased a Maytag in the last 15 years knows, you do NOT buy simply by brand anymore.

Interesting to see how the old Hobart KitchenAids hold their value. When one becomes available, the savvy shopper snatches it up quickly. I'd like to come across one at a garage sale or something. Thought about a new one but was wary of the quality decline. Plus, my little $14 hand mixer does everything I need it to. My last hand mixer cost me $7 and died after only 25 years of use. I thought it should have been under warranty! ;)

Hope everything works out for you.

Like I said, I'll just return it to Amazon for my money back. In fact, I'm pretty sure if I pressed the issue with KitchenAid, I'd likely be able to rectify the situation, at least with a replacement unit I could sell on ebay. I only made the initial call, and when I was told I was SOL, I didn't want to invest the time to make it an issue.

Mainly I just want to give others a heads up. I research everything, but typically don't revisit the issue if new information isn't brought to my attention. "Need a mixer - get a KitchenAid" was a no-brainer decision for me up to this point.

Curious to see how this Electrolux works out. I love the idea of open access to the bowl for adding in ingedients. And the bowl drive design prevents any bogging down when dealing with more elastic doughs.

cpanther95 - If it makes you feel any better about your choice, I have the Electrolux mixer and regularly make 4 loaves of bread at a time, up to 14 cups of flour, and it never waivers, does not get noticeably warm, just keeps chugging. I never need to use the bread hook either, just the flipping/kneading tools (the main ones). You may need to alter your technique a bit (perhaps changing the order you add ingredients, and use less flour). It will look very strange in action if you are used to a planetary mixer, but the dough turns out great.

There were some old threads here that have probably fallen into the Black Hole by now, discussing the best mixers for making bread. One woman regularly made 16 loaves a week, or some similar amazing number!

Consensus was the Kenwood/deLonghi was the best heavy-duty bread mixer, if I recall correctly.

I have an old KA - the 4-1/2 qt one, with a spare bowl and whisk. Almost 35 years old and still going, but admittedly I'm one of those "light" users. Mine is so old, the Harvest Gold color has started to show a definite tinge of chartreuse-y greenish cast, LOL. Despite the icky color, after reading here how folks were complaining about the newer Whirlpool-owned KA mixers, I'll never give mine up.

I bought 15 KitchenAid 6 qt 500 watt mixers for a cooking school 4 years ago and was deeply disappointed in their performance. They were supposed to be more powerful, but were too wimpy to make doughs properly. (Saying that running a dough on "4" makes it your fault if it breaks is outrageous.)

More irritating still was that when we used the sausage maker attachment, some of the sausage went into the works on 2 of the units instead of coming out where it was supposed to - The units were ruined (OMG the smell!!!). We contacted KitchenAid and they pointed us to some extremely fine print in the manual and claimed it was our fault because we had "pressed too hard on the tamper" and wouldn't repair or replace the units - I was there when it happened, we didn't press that hard.

I purchased a Kenwood 7 quart mixer a few years back (for home use for bigger batches) before they merged with Delongi. It works pretty well, but nothing works as well as my 18 year old 4 1/2 qt 300 watt KitchenAid. (I've never had the chance to try out the Electrolux.)

Cooks Illustrated now recommends Cuisinart over KitchenAid.

jkom51:

The DeLonghi was also in the running with great reviews. My concern was most of the bad reviews were also the most recent with quite a few who had there planetary gears break and being told by DeLonghi that the part is noit available for replacement. Some have had their unit in the shop for 9-12 months waiting for warranty repair.

After learning what I did about the KitchenAid, the fact that the old Kenmore (great reputation) is now the DeLonghi (although they kept the trademark "K" beater) - I had visions of another situation where a new owner just bought a great product for its name.

Having said that, the DeLonghi did end up as my #2 choice based on the overall feedback from what I researched.

My KA is 20+ years old, still going very strong. Of course, that was the Hobart era.

I was under the impression that there was still one model of KA mixer that was worthy, not that mine gives any sense that it's on its way out.

I've heard some bad things about large appliances wearing the KA badge, but I've had some very bad luck with small appliances wearing the Cuisinart name, too...

I have an old 4.5 qt. Hobart KA mixer. Outstanding machine. My only regret is that I didn't get the next size larger.

I picked up one of the new versions at a rummage sale for $10. Bought it for the SS bowl & attachments. The mixer was busted so I trashed it.

In the mountain biking world, we have an acronym, JRA, which stands for Just Riding Around. It's used in the context of warranty claims, as in: Q: What were you doing when your bicycle frame snapped in half? A: Oh, I was Just Riding Around.

Of course, I do not advise anything other than complete and utter honesty when dealing with manufacturers on warranty claims.

LOL. Yeah live and learn. I actually thought kneading 3 cups of flour on a speed of 4 with their top of the line 6QT "Professional" mixer was the equivalent of "JRA".

As the manual says, Setting 2 only for bread dough on a KitchenAid. I would also suggest little reliance on exact dough recipes or cookbooks that come with or are written for the mixers. If you can learn from someone with experience what is required to produce good bread dough without wrecking the mixer life will be easier. There are many variables involved that must be considered day to day. Then, if it won't do the job right out of the box on setting 2 it's a dud.

How long it will survive a steady workload of mixing/kneading bread dough is an interesting speculation as well.

Several excellent mixers have been mentioned for working dough. I would add to that list the Anvil 10qt and the Varimix 5qt "Teddy" at $1200 and the Globe for less. They are for those serious about baking bread and are heavy items to move around.

I gave up on Alton after buying his "cookbooks". There have been a lot of chef shows on PBS and elsewhere over the years and a lot of show cookbooks at the end. Working for KitchenAid and GE or others is just more of the same.

I could live with limiting the speed to 2 when kneading dough, but can't live with a 2 cup of flour limit. But just to reiterate, the only reason I upped the speed from 2 to 4 was because the unit stalled at 2 with 3 cups of flour. Leaving it at 2 would have resulted in the same burn out.

The unit stalled because pizza dough is heavy (not much water) and because it was inadequate to the task.

I think what they're trying to tell you is that if it stalls, knead by hand. But if you have to knead by hand, why buy a big heavy mixer?

cpanther95 & pillog:

I'm in complete agreement.

I am starting to bake bread again and have been thinking about a stand mixer. As KA has always been the "gold standard" I'm glad to find out that they are now "cheap and cheerful". Needless to say I am re-thinking.

After reading this thread I'm so glad I bought my Hobart KA Proline 5-qt mixer back in March 1989.
Thought it was a lot of $$ at the time ($280) and didn't use it a great deal at first.
It took a while to get used to not having the tilt head like my old Sunbeam, but now I love it.

I had the same thing happen to my old 6 qt. pro KitchenAid after about 14 months of use (I'd "upgraded" from 4 qt. model) ... This was about two years ago. And, after combing the web, found about the "plastic flywheel," which, at the time anyway, was much talked about. (Not sure if that is the exact same issue as this, but relatively similiar.) Though an initial call to KitchenAid said no warranty, youre out of luck, etc., a later call, armed with the web info, got me a replacement mixer, of a model without the plastic part (various 6 qt. models have various parts, apparently, or at least did), and it's still going strong now.

It is important to knead on the right setting, and the mixer can get warm after 10-15 minutes doing bread dough, but I do way more than 3 cups of flour with no problem.

Anyway, in my experience, I ended up very impressed with KitchenAid's customer service, though I'll echo an above poster's faith in Cook's Illustrated and I did also see that they recently reccomended the Cuisinart. (Of course they also reccomended the KitchenAid food processer, which I bought, based on that, and then sold on eBay to get another Cuisinart, which I, personally, preferred.) The Viking has also had very good reviews, though almost all say itÂs overpriced due to its name.

As for other mixers, I did try the DeLonghi once and, well, HATED the design. (Power seemed fine, though it was only cookies so not putting it through any real paces.) So, with something so pricey, itÂs probably better to try and find someplace, or someone, who has one and see if YOU like it. Not that thatÂs always possible ...

One thing I'd suggest is, perhaps, trying a store that highlights their customer service, like the OP did with Amazon (they'll take almost anything back non-working up to 30 days after purchase) or Bed, Bath and Beyond. Those places are a bit rare these days, but I frequent them because of their great customer. Usually, everything is fine, but they few times it hasn't been, and one of these stores were involved, I knew it would be fine.

-Susan W.

A couple of months ago I replaced my old 4-qt. tilt-back with a refurbished discontinued Accolade, which is about the same size as the Artisan but 'with all metal gears'. KA's customer service said that they had dropped the Accolade in favor of the Artisan, but I couldn't get any further explanation. I looked until I found a refurbished one on ebay, although KA's website frequently has them as well.

I haven't made any bread yet, but I will this weekend, to try it out. Once we move away from this unstable rental unit range I'll make almost all our baked products, including bread, so I'd better know now. (Still have my old KA on a shelf in the basement!) Does anyone know if the mention of 'all metal gears' rules out the plastic flywheel issue?

Any idea when KA changed to plastic gears?

No idea when they switch but this what you get when accountants and other business types get to make what should be an engineering decision. You get a $100K/year genius from Pompous Ass School of Management and Accounting who thinks that saving 6 cents on a part to boost short term profits is a better idea than maintaining the long term reputation and financial health of a company.

In general it's a good idea to stay away from the consumer oriented brands since they have engineered the MTBF to match a price point and coincide with warranty expirations (Mean Time Before Failure). These large companies have the resources to test and model these sorts of things to multiple decimal places. They purposely bake timed failure into the product. Once they have extracted all possible profit of the brand rep and have killed it, they buy another good brand and cannibalize it just like the one before it. If they can manufacture it in China with child labor, no environmental standards and cheap toxic materials well that just means more profit...

To get the real deal you need the Hobart N50 or something of that ilk. The N50's 5 color choices may not come close to the KitchenAid wheel of color but at least the darn thing will last a good long time.
Sleepyhollow

I love the idea of the Hobart N50, but need something larger. I thought the Pro600 might be enough larger to warrant changing from my 23 yr old, 4 1/2 qt KA, but not worth spending $1000 to go up 1/2 qt. I want something that does well with bread, but also other things. I have a wannabe Bosche mixer (actually a Dimension 2000) that is great with large batches of bread, but it had its problems when the company was still around to fix it, and now that they're not, I'm trying to plan ahead for its demise. I started to say, whereas it's great for doing bread, I'm not comfortable with it for other baking needs, and prefer the KA style and action, but it's just too small for us. Guess I'll check out Viking and Cuisinart.

I really am intrigued with the Thunderbird 10-qt on Pleasanthillgrain.com, but it's a monster (in a good way), like the Anvil. Not sure I want to go that far and that big.

Just to clarify, KA didn't get rid of the metal gears. They know that is a feature that even casual "cooks" look for when purchasing - marketing would never allow that. What they did was switch other parts of the transmission, including the housing that contains the metal gears to plastic. When the unit gets warm, the plastic softens, and the metal gears disengage and fly apart within the unit. I'd imagine the gears themselves are probably perfectly fine after failure - not that that does you any good.

FWIW, I received my Electrolux in but haven't used it yet for any tough dough tasks yet. However, I was encouraged to see in the manual that when discussing the roller setting when kneading dough, they have 4 settings listed:

1) 1-3 cups of flour
2) 4-7 cups of flour
3) 8-14 cups of flour
4) up to 23 cups of flour

Quite a big difference between the "up to 2 cups" that KitchenAid recommends.

For cake batters, mashed potatoes, whipped cream, etc. the $200 premium for the Electrolux is probably unnecessary. But for a 23 cup vs. 2 cup capacity for doughs, the $500 vs. $300 pricing is a flat out bargain.

OK, I dug out my new and old instruction books:

The newish (but refurbished) Accolade book says "Do not exceed Speed 2 when preparing yeast dough. This may damage the mixer."

My old KA manual, dated 1965, Hobart Manufacturing Company, states: "Operate [dough hook] on Speed '2'."

Now, I have made quite literally hundreds of loaves of bread including a recipe that makes three loaves of whole wheat at a time in my old tilt-back M45 from Hobart, and have used the mixer on higher than speed 2 *every* time. Which is still sitting in my basement, operable, because I have less than total trust in the new models.

I think I'll just follow Bernard Clayton's kneading instructions in his 'New Complete Book of Breads' and use my food processor for big batches. Him I trust.

sharon, that's interesting that you have a different hook; the hook from my pre-1965 Hobart KA and my new Accolade are identical, except for the white plastic coating. In fact, all three attachments are identical.

Kate.

Kate,

I've linked to the hook I have. It's probably the same as what you have. The new professional series mixers have a C-shaped hook, which is supposed to be better for kneading.

I knead dough all the time with that hook on my 23 yr old 4.5 qt KA. Rarely I have a problem with the dough forming a separate ball that doesn't adhere to the hook, so it just gets pushed around, but usually it does a fine job...Just not enough capacity for the amount of bread I need to make. OK for pizza, though, and worked great when I used to make smaller batches of bread. I'm also pretty sure I've kneaded on 4, but can't say for sure.

When it worked, the hook was fine. Even the ball of dough clinging to the hook, or the separate ball that sometimes divides away from the primary mass continue to get kneaded. If you watch closely, you'll eventually see the dough gradually shifting places and intermingling.

My mom still has the old Sunbeam mixer she had when I was growing up. Still going strong.

KitchenAid mixers just milking their name and reputation

This should have been obvious to most when they started being available everywhere in every color for 200 bucks. Used to be (when they were really good) you could get any color as long as it was beige and it was 400-500 bucks.

Just think of all the bandwidth that was saved around here without the threads regarding how "I wish the KA mixer was cheaper" or "anyone know where to get a discount on...?"

Interesting thread! I just picked up a Hobart era KitchenAid K45 with two stainless bowls, two flat beaters, two balloon whips and a dough hook for $40. I'm elated! Since I'm sure avocado green is on it's way back, I'm clearing a place on my counter...

I love my Kenwood, but my two young sons are Alton Brown fans and they'd like their own mixer so we can make batches in tandem. If all I've read is true, nothing they could possibly do will kill a Hobart KitchenAid!

Yes, but they only cost 199 bucks and come in such cute colors.

Back in the early 80's when I got my last mixer I believe it was olny available in almond, white came around a few years later as I recall. Back then it seems to me to have cost in the $400 range and was easily the most expensive mixer on the market. There was no discussion or CR tests ect... If you wanted the best you simply paid the freight. Not many that have them cry now.

Now, everyone wants the "best" , they want it in mandarin orange, or pinkaliscious, they want it tomorrow, they don't want to pay shipping or have to drive to get it and pay tax, oh, and they want a "deal". KA is simply responding to the American public's wants. It's nearly impossible to have a well designed mechanical consumer product that is domestically produced and still have it cost a pitance. If people would vote with their pocketbooks, meaning get the moths out- we would have more products like the good ol days.

WOW!!! Thanks for the timely insight since this is (or WAS) on our wish list...the TOL KA stand mixer. Reading the specs for their commercial and pro line mixers,they carefully word the construction of the transmission in both as "All steel GEAR transmission". Since they read the same, I am concluding both have the same construction and, consequently, failure point. If the housing and mounts are insufficient to hold the gears solidly in place, what's the point?

So now the big ? is... What are top picks?

I, like many others, am not prepared to spend $2K for mixer but $500-$1,000 should buy a solid mixer with an all steel transmission, not just the gears.

What "should" be and what is - are two entirely different things.

The new Bosch MUM86A Kitchen Machine would be nice. Guess it will arrive here someday.

I have the little Bosch MUM4750 Compact, which is a less powerful version of the MUM86A. I think it's being phased out to introduce the stronger new machine. Still, it handles the stiffest of doughs (rye/whole wheat combo) just fine. Double, even triple pizza dough batches too. I have no idea why this is, but my pie crusts turn out better with this machine than they do if done by hand.

Lots of bread makers swear by the Bosch Universal. Try doing some research on that brand.

i just purchased a KA food processor a couple of weeks ago. total crap! my cheesey little asian no name one cup wonder is better than the big KA. i use it daily to prepare special texture foods for my two year old,and end up with either too much puree, or chunks that cause him to vomit. i'll never buy KA again for small appliances.

Hmm, I've also been reading this thread with interest because I was just about to buy a KA stand mixer. On their website, it says the Professional 600 series is "Flour Power" rated for 14 cups, "8 loaves white bread, 13 dozen cookies, 8 lb. mashed potatos" Also from their website:

Warranty

Our Hassle-Free Replacement Warranty guarantees that if your countertop appliance fails
during the first year, KitchenAid will replace it free of charge. We will:

# Deliver a replacement to your door
# Arrange the return of the failed appliance
# Guarantee the new appliance for one year

For more information or complete warranty details on KitchenAid® countertop appliances,
please call Customer Service at 1-800-541-6390.

Sure doesn't sound like your experience. Maybe I'll have to look at the Cuisinart instead.

W.

I've been researching mixers so I can decide what to put on my Christmas list. I just came across an article on consumersearch.com updated on Aug.2008 that says the KitchenAid pro600 now has a metal gearbox. I'm sure there are plenty of the plastic ones still in inventory everywhere so would need to be careful to look for the newer version.
This seems to have been the biggest complaint, so I may consider the KA again.

I have the Pro 600 for 2 years now... have had 8 cups of all-purpose flour when making pizza dough and used the hook. Never had an issue.

Just follow the instructions and you wont have issues (no higher than #2, and no longer than the time specified in the manual). Heck, I saw an episode of Americas Test Kitchen where they set the mixer (the Artisan model I believe) to something close to 10, and not 2 as recommended, when mixing dough. Just goes to show you got follow the instructions.

-Gorilla

I have my mom's Hobart n50 and ALL the attachments and feel very glad she never threw it away. It is worth its weight in GOLD! If you can get one on ebay grab it up. I bought my daughter a KA pro 600. piece of junk! Same problem with the dough mixing. The older kitchenaids are the way to go. I read on this forum that the ones that tilt weren't so good. I also read here that everyone loved the bosch and the electrolux mixers.

I know this was years ago, but this is from their user manual of the Professional 600.

Do not use recipes calling for more than 14 cups all-purpose flour or 8 cups whole-wheat flour when making dough with a 6 qt mixer.

Do not use recipes calling for more than 12 cups all-purpose flour or 6 cups whole-wheat flour when making dough with a 5 qt mixer.

Mine handles 6 cups no problem. Don't need to do more than that for my needs.

I too have had problems with my 6qt pro. Repaired it myself. Mine has metal gears but the places they sit are not precise and the gears move around under load. What a piece of junk. . Look for a pre 1985 (before whirlpool) mixer.