>> "No form of vinegar changes body pH or has any effect on toxins. The body's natural processes, mediated largely through the liver and kidneys, eliminate waste products and toxic substances." It's as if you are still rejecting the efficacy of Cinchona bark for treating malaria because the Amazonian Indians haven't discovered the formula for the quinine it contains. Instead, they say that the bark of the Cinchona tree contains the spirit of the God Xohopichulato, which destroys the evil spirit that causes malaria. If you want to rest in your beliefs that there is no Xohopichulato and therefore Cinchona cannot help with malaria, fine. Just don't pretend it is science. It is arrogant ethnocentrism, not scientific empiricism. Your arguments are based on an arbitrary and artificial definition of the word 'toxin'. You are ignoring the fact that ordinary substances can build up to toxic levels under many conditions - for example, glucose can build up to toxic levels when there is insulin resistance. In such a case, anything that reduces insulin resistance or lowers glucose levels would in fact be a 'detoxification' process. Likewise, immune hormones like the interferons and interleukins are necessary under certain conditions, but at higher doses (ie when there is infection or chronic inflammation) they often cause side effects that range from unpleasant to lethal. In SARS, H5N1 bird flu, and other killer influenzas, the body's immune system destroys the body. Immune hormones that might sometimes be beneficial are produced at toxic levels. This is quite different from your idea of metabolic toxins that are normally handled by the kidneys and liver. The short chain fatty acids present in vinegar (acetate, proprionate, butyrate) have been repeatedly shown to lower inflammatory cytokines (which have been implicated as a contributor to migraines). These simple compounds also affect levels of leptin, adiponectin and other compounds that regulate glucose, and there is research implicating this in the pathogenesis of migraines. You have stooped to pseudoscience by refusing to look at the evidence that vinegar can dramatically change certain chemicals in the body. You seem to take comfort in linguistic tautologies about 'toxins' that have little bearing on the underlying facts of the matter. Here is a link that might be useful: Glucose, Adiponectin, Immune Hormones and Migraine.

The motivation thing is the most important. Also you need a plan so it won't be just willy-nilly. Example - have a weight-in, a short program sometimes would be good with some brochures you can get from various organizations, then a time to talk after everyone does whatever is in the plan. In other words I think you must have a good structure for it to work. Also, is your church pretty good size? I've never gone to a church I thought was quiet large enough to get one going.

Laurie, we have not tried cyproheptadine with her as of yet. It is RX, right? She's gained or maintained her weight adequately over the 3 years, but she has short episodes where she doesn't eat well from time to time. She's having more problems since her brother passed away, but that was still less than a month ago. I've been using nutrical on her, which seems to work a bit like an appetite stimulant, or it settles her stomach enough to make her feel like eating. One of the biggest problems we are having of late is that she often wants to eat her dry food and not the wet we put out. Since she had her teeth pulled last fall, she just swallows the kibble pieces whole (she doesn't like them moistened or broken up though). When the dry kibble expands in her stomach, it is apparently too much for her and she throws it up. Almost worse than that, her new MO is to climb up on the bed at night when she is feeling sick and allbut throw up next to our heads. We wake up to her doing the nauseas, watery-mouth thing. She has thrown up a lot in her life with all her health problems, but never thrown up on the bed, and definitely not practically on one of us. We are getting to the point that we are going to have to lock her out of our bedroom at night. I feel terrible, but that's just too much. She's due to go into the vet, hopefully this week, but I'm sick today so will make the appointment tomorrow or when I feel well enough, and I'll talk to the vet about these things. I probably should have started a new thread for this, but gosh, she's really frustrating me lately. I feel bad and know that it's probably triggered by grief, but it gets to a point that she's driving me crazy too.

Spark people was a huge help to me in learning how to get the weight off. I have hypothyroidism so it is doubly hard. I'm not using them now, but I do keep a food diary. That is the most consistent thing you are going to here from people who have lost weight: they keep a food diary. Just knowing you have to write it down when you swallow it is a huge help. and you need to be willing to write it down immediately too, not at the end of the day. Too many things get forgotten that way. I have a food diary that goes back to last July. I print it out every month. I don't even expect it will ever get read by anyone. Here is a sample: 3-17-09: [165.1] 9am: 2 oranges. 10:30am 6 oz. baked ckn, 4 oz baked sweet potato, 6 oz steamed cabbage. Like others, I'm became a complete sugar/empty carb/ white flour addict when I quit smoking. I just changed addictions. So that is an all-or-nothing thing with me, and I had to go with 'nothing'. I don't have it in the house. I also don't use any sugar substitutes because they are worse than sugar (most of them) and ALL of them set up the same chain reaction in your body that sugar does. What is surprising is that you really can get used to having a life of no sweetener except what is naturally found in fruits & veggies. I second the comment about how your cloths fit. Muscle is heavier than fat and is a boon to good metabolism, so you have the hardest part under control. I WISH I could exercise like that. Half is won't, half is can't. Between worn out knees and weak wrists, and general age & wear, there is a lot of exercising I just can't do. Even more that I won't lol. Go to sparkpeople.com. It's free and is the greatest place on the web for all kinds of support and education. Another good site is radiantrecovery.com (I think. Google it if not) where they can help you detox from sugar. Don't give up, you've got more than half the battle licked, being as active as you are. j