I'd give the spoons a quick swish in any kind of warm water or under running water -- just a pass through (equivalent of scraping) and then put them in with bowls facing center. Should take care of the problem. I only use whole Miele tabs for big loads or normal plus or pots & pans but we have whole house water softener.

Since I changed to the half Miele tabs I haven't had any etching or streaking on the glassware.

Mando, I'm actually not sure what they are. Could be anything but most likely dessert-related.

Rococogurl, yeah, I may have to end up "pre-rinsing" the spoons. We scrape everything else out pretty well, but something more may be needed here.

This is nuts. It shouldn't matter how close together the spoons are. If you look at one of the pictures I posted of my cutlery tray you can see that everything is in pretty close and still came out fine.

And it is only these spoons and the tray is half loaded. Nuts!! I would rather NOT be rinsing spoons to get them clean.

When you are running the next load stick your finger in the bottom during the middle of the wash or use a instant read thermometer and see how hot the water really is.

I'll keep on thinking.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jerrods cutlery tray

I have been making and EATING bran muffins and eating Kashi hot grain cereals. Your dirt reminds me of the sticky bran goo that gets all over the spoons mixing utensils and bowls.

Do the spoons have any nicks or pot marks in them?

Also did you get to check the upper arm to see if it is turning freely?

Thanks for additional ideas you may have, Jerrod. The spoons are actually pretty smooth. Most of them we actually bought just for Xmas dinner so they're practically brand new. I have checked the upper arm and nothing's blocking it. I've gotten so paranoid I check to make sure all the arms before I run the DW because I *did* have one case where the middle arm ended up being blocked. Is there a way to tell if it's turning properly when it's running? Maybe there's something mechanically wrong. Hmmm.

I've been living with Miele dishwashers for many years now. The only defect that I see in these machines is that things can get stuck inside the spray arms. I'm not saying that you look at the holes and you see thm blocked, that's not it. I'm saying that a peice of lobster catilage, or a tiny piece of plastic gets in there, and you can't get it out. The times it has happened to me, the pieces were not stuck in the openings. They were moving around freely. It took me hours to get them out.

If the rest of your dishes are getting clean, don't look at your water quality or detergent. It has to be your spray arm. If you really want to know if that is what it is, you could try to get another spray arm, and see if that solves the problem.

My DW flashes a message on the screen if an arm is not turning but I don't think yours is using a screen.

I always check the arms before starting a load just to make sure they all move freely but I admit I don't check the top arm unless I know I've put something tall up on the cutlery tray.

A long shot you could place the arm in a position you choose, start the program and then right at the beginning you could look at it. This is a LONG shot since it is very difficult to see that upper arm.

It just seems "lack of water" related since some of the spoons are OK and some are not and they are in the same load and you are not having problems in any other part of the machine.

Your machine is still under warranty you could call for home service and let the tech look at the arm. I wonder if all of the holes are open in that arm?

WAIT - page 69 in my manual tells how to remove each arm and check for dirt. This might on another page in your manual but it is under the Cleaning and Care section. For both the middle and upper arms you are supposed to press or lift the arm up in the center to engage a ratchet which will let the arm be unscrewed. Check out this section in your manual.

Heh, thanks for the idea, Jerrod, but I've already tried that. Unscrewed it, poked the holes, rinsed water through, and unfortunately the thing is clean as a whistle.

I've been scratching my head over this one all weekend! We have the same dishwasher and my spoons are fine. Assuming you use salt, we are doing the same thing yet your spoons are dirty and mine are clean. Then this morning it hit me--this may be totally off the wall, but the only difference I can find in our techniques is that I load the spoons on the lower right of the tray--with the bowls facing the BACK of the machine.

Now, obviously a long shot, but in your pictures the bowls are facing the front. Maybe the water can't hit the bowls as well that way?

Any, it's probably not a factor, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Sharon

Rinse Aid???????

I apologize if this was discussed earlier, but are you loading a lot of large items in the middle rack (the one just below the cutlery tray)? I found, when I placed large/wide plastic containers in the middle rack, which by necessity had to be placed somewhat flat in the rack, rather than at a slight angle (which can be done with smaller containers), some of my items in the cutlery tray did not come out clean. It's as if those large containers blocked the water spray, preventing it from reaching the topmost rack. When I don't have any of those large/wide containers in that rack, for the most part, everything in the cutlery tray comes out clean. I stack my flatware in adjacent slots (so they are very close to each other) facing forward. On some (rare) occasions, I'll get a spoon or fork or whatever with some dried food bits, but those occasions are few, and usually it's after something particularly goopy/dirty has been sitting in the DW for a few days.

Again, I did notice this happening with more frequency, to a larger # of cutlery tray items after I'd run a load with a large container(s) in that middle rack (placing a lot of smaller ones doesn't seem to do it as much, I think because the spaces between multiple items allow more water spray to get through than one large container).

Just a thought....

Any resolution to the issue? On my La Perla, I can clearly hear the "swoosh" of a forceful blast of water from the wand above the cutlery tray -- can you hear the same thing? The spray arms alternate, so you will hear the bottom one first, then the middle, then the cutlery tray. Put your ear to the top of the door and listen for the spray from the cutlery wand -- if you don't hear anything, I would say that's a pretty good indication that you have an issue in that specific area.

The Excella and the LaPerla are the only models in which the spray arms alternate so if Hest doesn't have those models I think all of the arms will be going at the same time, but you could still probably put your ear to the top of the door and listen.

Hmm...still don't get as I load items facing front, back, on top of each other and anyplace I can get them with no problems.

My motor is still running on this one.

What is the purpose of the spray arms alternating? My guess would be to use less water, but maybe Miele has something more sophisticated in mind.

I think it causes the machine to use less water. Less water is needed per fill since it doesn't move all of them at once, so these models can use a bit less water than the other Miele models.

The alternating wash arms are mentioned in documentation in Germany and other countries but you won't find anything about it in the USA documentation or advertising. The machines just do it, but the USA Miele subsidiary never says anything about this fact. These models also use variable spray pressures..not a word about that either....weird.

Anyway about these spoons!

I wonder whether less water means more time. Are Excella and LaPerla cycle times longer?

Hest88, I have an idea that I hope you don't find insulting. You said you bought the spoons just for Christmas dinner. Are they inexpensive pieces only for occasional use and to avoid using plastic? If so, perhaps their finish is inferior to your other cutlery and that is why they aren't cleaning as well.

Thanks all. I may just try that arm thing Jerrod suggested to make sure it's revolving!

Cat_mom, we load mainly mugs in the middle, but I may try a cycle where we only have things off to the side to see blockage is indeed the issue.

I'm also going to try putting the spoons on the right instead of the left.

We took out a light load last night, on Normal, with Cascade, and there were one or two spoons with gunk on them. It's especially annoying because it does such a great job with even caked on, deep serving dishes. What's with these spoons?!

hi..I'm coming to this late. We also have a new Diamante and identical looking spoons...but they come as clean as a whistle. The only difference is like sharon s I load the spoons in the right side as you open the door...bowls to the centre. I rarly have a space between them either....makes no sense, but try that...

Chipshot, not insulting at all. They're Ikea spoons so although they're sturdy I'm sure they're not the best quality spoons out there. I just have no idea if that would make a difference. They *are* really strong and smooth.

Chilkoot, yes, I think we're going to try putting the spoons on the right now this time and see how that goes.

Cat_mom, I found a picture I took of the middle rack of one of the same cycles of one of the spoon pictures above. Don't know if it makes a difference, but thought I'd post it.

If the spoons were on the same side, and above those large bowls in your pic, what I suggested could very well be possible.

We have some large, round, wide (only few inches deep) Rubbermaid containers, and because of size, can't go in the middle rack at even a slight angle (as most of the smaller sized containers can). So, when we'd placed them in the middle rack, they went in flat, which meant they covered a fair am't of space.

The most frequent occurrences of dirty flatware seemed to come after running a load in which one or more of those containers had also been placed in the middle rack. It's quite possibly a coincidence, but I do know that the incidences of dirty spoons or forks are much fewer and farther between since we tried avoiding placing those containers in the middle rack. We put them on the bottom rack now.

My thinking is this, and again, I could be totally off-base: there is no dedicated spray arm for the cutlery tray (at least not in my Optima). That tray is served by the spray arm just below/attached to the middle rack. Therefore, it would make sense, that very large items that have the potential for blocking that water spray from reaching the upper/cutlery tray, would/could do just that if they are placed flat (over a large area) in the middle rack. Since smaller containers have the head room to placed at a slight angle, allowing water spray to go up and around them, they wouldn't be as likely to displace or block as much of the spray.

In any event, as I've said, we stack spoons, forks, knives very closely to each other in the tray, and yes, on some rare occasions, we do get the dried on bits of oatmeal or something otherwise gluey (after sitting a day or two most likely). For the most part though, much to my surprise and delight--they come out clean.

Thanks Cat_Mom. Doesn't your Optima have the spray arm above the tray? Our Diamante does so I assumed yours would have one as well.

We haven't been eating in much this week, so haven't run another load. We are switching the spoons to the right side though, so I'll let everyone know how it goes. I'll also monitor whether or not we have too much stuff in the middle rack to properly clean the cutlery tray. Thanks again.

Okay, we ran the DW with the cutlery on the right side this time. Spoons were okay, but...the backs of the forks had the same weird "oatmeal" like spots. Arrrggh. I may just have to live with this.

Apologies if already asked and answered, but did you ever try "pre-rinsing" the spoons?

oops! I never noticed that little spray mounted on the DW "ceiling" above the cutlery tray (the things one learns on this forum!). Now I will have to try placing larger items in the middle rack again and see if it was just coincidence that those cutlery pieces came out less than clean those other few times.

Perhaps your topmost spray arm isn't moving freely, or is clogged in some way after all?

I had a problem in my Miele DW with things on the BOTTOM rack not getting clean. It turns out that the bottom spray arm wasn't spraying or turning due to a faulty water distribution part (some solenoid or other). Only the middle and uppermost arms were turning, so bowls in the lower rack were as dirty coming out as when they went in! A call to Miele got the water valve fixed, and there have been no more problems. It may be that your uppermost spray arm that gets all of the silverware clean isn't turning or distributing water because of a similar fault. Worth a call to Miele!

Hi All, hest88,
It looks and sounds to me like there's not enough mechanical action going on at the ceiling spray arm. Why not? Too much detergent. Too much detergent for the water hardness, that is. What's happening is that the soft water is making the detergent a little too foamy and the top spray arm is just kind of bobbling around squirting suds instead of acting like the pressure washer it should be.

First thing to check: Empty the dishwasher, rinse off the filters. Run a normal cycle, and 10 minutes in, open it up. The water should be almost drinkably clear. If not, this indicates detergent residue building up. This is common with very soft water.

If your water is very soft to begin with, make sure you are not adding salt and turn off the internal softener - call Miele support to help you with that.

Next, the Miele tabs are great.Try using a half-tab for a few loads - you should see a difference. You could also use a level tablespoon of Cascade Complete for a while, just as an experiment.

Finally, load the cutlery tray with the silverware handles pointing out to the left and right, laying the bowls and tines in the larger area so that the support spikes only touch the handles.

Try this out, and if you haven't already, call Miele 1-800-999-1360 for help.

-P

Thanks all for the latest responses. I'm going to try Jerrod's thing where I position the upper arm a certain way and see if it's in the same position at the end of the cycle. I know it's clean, partly because I've dismantled it and partly because after a cycle the holes drip water when I tap the arm.

Paul, I'm printing out your post as a "checklist"! And then I do think it's time to call Miele if nothing else works. We don't have salt in the Miele, since I know we have soft water. We had been using 1/2 Miele tabs before switching to the Cascade to see if that would work better, so I'll again try a new combo.

i was leaning towards miele optima from what i have read?? I want something quiet but does the job without a lot of work! I want to be able to put dishes in and get them out clean! and Dry. Also don't like the cutlery tray? Does the miele optima have a cuttlery basket? I like to just throw them in quickly- have lots of kids! thanks

Hest88, do not live with it! Miele costomer support is very helpful, call them. I do agree that's is been very valuable for me to talk to other owners before calling them. You can learn about rare things, like the water distributor issue.

Keep in mind that the problem I had with the piece of platic being stuck inside the spray arm,(not the cutlery arm), was hard to find. I had to play with it for a while before I did. The platic was not lodged in one of the holes, but moving freely inside the arm. But when the water pressure would start, of course, it would block some of the water, usually at the end of the spray arm. You can be sure that this is, or isn't the problem, if the tecnician brings you another spray arm, and let's you try it. Maybe they'll work with you and send you one rather than setting up a service call. Ask them.

Suzieee--I wouldn't change my appliance choice because one poster is having problems. I have the same model as the OP, installed since just before Thanksgiving, and am not having these issues. In fact, over the holidays when everyone was home, I was constantly nagging them to NOT pre-rinse! If something is really sticky, like melted cheese, I'll rinse but nothing else. Everything comes out sparkling for me. I LOVE this dishwasher!

We have the Optima and I LOVE it.

I really like the cutlery tray. During the first few uses, I established in my head where certain items would go (arbitrarily, but don't tell my DH!), and now automatically place items in their designated section of the tray (with some adjusting if/when needed). When the load is done, I just scoop up a handful of forks, spoons, or knives, and plop them right into the cutlery drawer next to the DW. No picking through each item to put things away.

As for noise; the noisiest times for the DW is when it is starting up, filling w/ water, and then draining at the end of the cycle. Those are a bit louder than I'd expected (but still MUCH quieter than our old KA), and could be magnified by the plastic/PVC drain pipe under the sink, which is known to echo much more than copper piping. When the wash cycle is fully engaged, the machine is extremely quiet. The only noise you'd hear is a very soft swishing sound (of the water moving in the machine), and this is if you're right in the kitchen, with no TV on situation.

I've been reading threads regarding miele dws and just wondered if the OP has gotten this issue resolved.

Sammi, thanks for asking. No, I haven't gotten around to calling Miele yet. It's actually gotten slightly worse, and my DH is proposing we stick to chopsticks and porcelain spoons (which seem to get clean no matter what)! I'm going to call Miele soon, promise, and I'll be sure to report back when I do.

Let's see, problem repoted, advice given, advice not followed. 3 months elapse (1/4 to 1/8 of the warranty period) and the manuf. has not been contacted. Problem is getting worse and NO attempt at remedy has been made.

This is going to go well for all involved, I predict.

I sure would like to know how this came out as I'm having a similar problem. I guess it's been too many years....

Hi sjerin. Dishwasher still going strong after all these years. However the folks at Miele couldn't figure it out. What we've been doing is simply wiping or rinsing clean any stainless steel cutlery prior to putting in the tray, unless we plan on running the dishwasher very soon after. Utensils that aren't stainless steel--my porcelain spoons and chopsticks--get clean no matter how much food is stuck to them. If your Miele people have more knowledgeable solutions for you I would love to hear them! Good luck!

Hest88,

I have never had to do this in my Miele. I have had two miele dishwashers with cutlery trays in 15years. Does everything else come clean in the machine? What detergent are you using? Does your machine have the cutlery tray or the basket? It is an odd problem. I also have Stainless steel cutlery and they always come out clean. Does your unit have a sprayer on the top of the dishwasher? I wonder if that sprayer is not working properly.

This, indeed, does not sound normal and does not reflect my experience with Miele dish washers. If changing the detergent (e.g. try Finish Powerball) doesn't help, verify that you are using the correct amount of rinse aid for the type of water that you are getting. Also, try regenerating the water softener resin in your dishwasher. In general, harder water makes detergent work less effectively.

Hest, what a lovely surprise to see your post!! Usually the old ones drop off and that's that. That's an interesting solution you used; I suspect you may have had a lemon of a dw but of course, Miele wouldn't want to replace it. I was able to get all the rinse arms off but the top (cutlery) one; I know you press up then twist to engage the ratchet, but neither dh nor I can figure it out. I ran a very small load as a test yesterday and they came out fine-- the real test will be with a full load in a few days. Thank you soooo much for your reply!

My machine is a low-end Miele and doesn't have a water softener in it. (I'm in the SF Bay Area and we have hard water.) After they took phosphates out of the detergents, my problems started. I use the Finish tabs with..... Lemishine. Must use the Lemishine or the load won't clean at all. I thought perhaps that company changed their formula but when I wrote to them they replied saying they have not. Sooo, I'm assuming not enough water was getting to the dishes. For some reason a small bit of pink substance (from the tabs?) sticks to some of the plates. It's a toss-up as to whether to call a repair person or just get a new one (don't wanna!) as the service call won't be cheap. I'll let you know how the next load comes out. Thanks again and thank you to M and Homepro too.

Sjerin, I was surprised to see this thread pop up again in my email! Funny to revisit this all these years later. Let me know how your full load goes! I also live in the SF Bay Area, but our water is soft.

Home and M, thanks for your replies. We do have a tray and the sprayer is on the top. Back in the day we were using Persil tabs, and did try Finish some years ago, but we're currently just using Method tabs. Might have to try the Finish tabs again, but it's been so many years of cleaning the stainless steel first I can't tell you what works and doesn't.

From what you're describing, I suspect the hard water is to blame. Phosphates used to work really well, but wreaked havoc on the environment. We already have enough problems with run off into the Pacific; don't need to add even more fertilizer.

These days, dishwashing detergents rely on enzymes to break down food residue, and rely on small amounts of surfactants (i.e. soap) to rinse things off. That can work even better than the old type of detergent. But it generally isn't as effective the harder the water is. You probably notice that when showing too. You need more soap to wash, and then when you rinse the soap doesn't really want to come off.

I live in a part of the Bay Area that is fortunate enough to get Hetch Hetchy water. So, our water is exceptionally soft. That would explain the different experiences.

If you don't want to move a few miles North, your best bet is getting a water softener. Alternatively, keep experimenting with different detergents. Maybe you'll find one that works better in your situation. And definitely make sure to use rinse aid. With hard water you have to. It's the same problem as with showering. The water can't wash off everything. And in the case of a dishwasher, this is water that still has some food particles. So, you'll see residue when things dry

M, I actually live in Oakland, so our water isn't hard. We do use rinse aid, however, and have from the beginning. I wish the Miele repair people had been more help, but it's not a huge problem and I haven't thought much about it for years until this thread came up again. I'll see if I have an appetite for experimenting further at this point.

sjerin and ketih,

Did either or you try the Miele tabs? Also, did you try any other flatware and did the issue persist? It is a very interesting issue.

This is interesting, as we've been using a Miele Diamante Plus model since 2010 (built in water softener) with either the Miele Tabs or the Method Smarty Tabs. During that time, we've never had an issue with silverware in the top cutlery tray not being clean, even dried peanut butter.

But since the circulation pump motor went out a few months ago, we've been doing dishes by hand, and I've seen the cutlery starting to tarnish. Now that we have a new Miele Crystal G6625 being delivered next week, it will be time to clean and polish the silverware again. I would expect this new model to clean just as well as the older one.

Ok, I think I fixed the problem for now. M, I've been using Lemishine since the phosphates were taken out of the detergents and all was mostly fine until very recently. I decided to really scrub the little cone-shaped filter as it appeared to have lint on in; that may actually have been residue from the hard water. I used a brush similar to a toothbrush, scrubbed inside and out and rinsed well, then tried a load using Finish tabs and Lemishine. They came out with a strange film? or very thin layer of something that felt slick. Big disappointment. I then tried a Cascade tab (no rinse in it,) with Lemishine on another load and they came out great! (Even the flatware.) I don't want to resort to the Miele tabs because of the cost but might consider Method tabs. Perhaps the Finish tabs have too much of something in them for my dw.

Thanks so much to everybody for your thoughts and ideas!!

Scrubbing with a toothbrush is a great way to clean fine-mesh filters. But I found another dental appliance that can work wonders. If you happen to have a water flosser, give it a try. I found that it cleans much faster and more effective than just a toothbrush.

And congratulations on having found a detergent that works fine for you. I am not surprised to hear that different dishwashers and different water need different detergents.

As a real sales person for appliances Miele is a vastly overpriced product with not as good of quality as you would expect. They are often over sold on quality and I can find you a better performing machine for much less.

Thanks for reporting back Sjerin!

Dishes continue to come out clean. I'm so glad I didn't call a repair person!

Both the Miele Tabs and Method Smarty Tabs clean good, and I cut them in half for most regular loads. But I do believe the Miele Tabs do clean better as they remove read stains from mugs.