"Also, how in the world do people change the light bulbs in rooms with very tall ceilings?"

Bulb holder on a long pole.

Chandeliers are worse.
The upwards pointing bulbs require a lift, trestle ladder, or lowering gear for the fixture.

brickeyee: I've seen those poles advertised before. Do they actually work? I guess I just sort of assumed they were another gadget that didn't really work when you got them home. Great solution, though, if they do work!!

I agree with you about chandeliers. I'm trying to cut some of my budget in other places to afford a motor that would lower the fixture in the great room.

The dilemma with tall ceilings and recessed light fixtures is that it is easy to change a screw in lamp with a pole and suction cup but even the halogen PAR lamps do not throw as much light as the low voltage MR16 lamps that require access to the fixture. For really big upper spaces it is sometimes best to light it with a wall mounted halogen quartz up light that is easily relamped.

You should be using a professional for difficult to light spaces even if it is just one who works for a big lighting store. Good lighting design is not necessarily simple or intuitive.

The general trend for lighting designers is to use small diameter low voltage halogen recessed lights spaced 3 to 4 ft apart on dimmers that provide narrow beam lighting on walls and work surfaces and last up to 10 years.

The general trend for electricians is to use large diameter line voltage incandescent lights spaced 5 to 6 ft apart on dimmers that provide wide beam general illumination with R lamps that have to be replaced frequently.

The lighting designer approach can easily double the fixture cost so it is rarely accommodated by the fixture allowance provided by most home builders.

Good lighting on a tight budget in tall spaces is a very tough design challenge.

Macy: thanks for the tips. The lighting in my current home is terrible, so I'm very concerned that we get it right this time. I like your suggestion about the wall-mounted up lights; very interesting. I wouldn't mind having a house without any can lights at all - would that be crazy????

"I agree with you about chandeliers. I'm trying to cut some of my budget in other places to afford a motor that would lower the fixture in the great room."

For the number of times you usually need to lower the chandelier, the motorized lifts are really overkill.

The hand crank ones are cheaper.

If you have attic space over a tall ceiling it is often the easiest route to servicing lamps.

The cheap light poles do not work well.
The ones from an electrical distributor costs more but will actually work as desired.

Nothing wrong with avoiding recessed lighting but it will require a bit more imagination and design experience to be able to light walls and work surfaces adequately without them.

One of the biggest tradeoffs is putting lights on walls where you could have put artwork lighted with a recessed wall washer. This is a big issue because modern houses provide so little wall space for artwork and can feel a bit under-furnished. One solution is a light on the artwork frame which requires a recessed (clock) receptacle on the wall. For tall ceilings wall mounted up-lighting can be placed above the frame lighted artwork.

Personally if no one ever installed recessed lights again
I wouldn't miss it!
My problem with recessed lights are the ones that are not air sealed. Recessed cans can be IC insulation contact,
meaning insulation can be installed next to them, but if they are not air tight then an IC only can is equal to one square foot of uninsulated attic due to the air leakage.
Look for ICAT insulation contact air tight.
and use cf's..long life 1/3 the heat of an incandescant
and costs about 1/3 the cost of incandescant to use.
halogen lights produce a LOT of heat.
best of luck.

"and use cf's..long life 1/3 the heat of an incandescant
and costs about 1/3 the cost of incandescant to use. "

And in a recessed fixture lasts about 1/3 the life of an incandescent unless you get a CFL-only fixture.

I like can lights, but put plenty of them and put a dimmer on them. You may never use it, but the option is there. In our old home, as the builder-grade incandescent lights burned out, I replaced them with CFLs -- and never changed a one of those before we moved after living there 3 years. And get the ones that are air-sealed so your heating isn't seeping into your attic.

IME those pole things don't work. When we need to change bulbs in our great room ceiling (about 17') we put up the Baker staging and put a step ladder on top of that. We change all the lights at once (all in the fan (4) and all 4 cans).

What would I do without you guys? Who knew this lighting thing was going to be so tough!! Does anyone have any experience with LED lighting? I've been looking at Juno Lighting - they appear to have some recessed cans that use LED. Their website states these lights have 50,000 hours of lifetime use - which means they would practically never burn out! But do they provide as much light as the other options out there? I don't want just a dim light way up in the ceiling.

Juno's recessed lighting is a mid range "standard" residential product similar to LyteCaster by Lightolier. Both parent companies make a higher "specification" grade of residential recessed lighting called Aculux and Evolution respectively.

Juno LED recessed lights are only available in 5 and 6 inch diameter downlights that cannot be adjusted laterally or aimed to light walls so they are very limited in terms of lighting design. They are available in 14 and 25 watt sizes which are roughly equivalent to to 50wBR30 and 85wBR30 reflector lamps respectively. They are available in three different color temperatures.

They cost about $200 a fixture so they are about 4 times the expense of standard non-adjustable PAR/R lamp downlights. For a moderately used light I would guess they would save about $15 a year and the payback would be about 10 years or less if adjusted for the rising cost of electricity. But that is not accounting for advancements in incandescent technology which has already increased PAR and MR16 efficiency by 20 to 30% (IR lamps). That also doesn't account for the possible cost of replacing the PC board or driver in the LED fixture.

If my clients are willing to spend even $100 on a recessed fixture I'm going to go for the new 3 3/4" low voltage 37w MR16 IR lamps that give off more light than a standard 50w. MR16, can be aimed/adjusted laterally, and last 4,000 hours. (Double the hours if the fixture is normally dimmed 10%. Some of them last 10 years.) The money saved by not using LED fixtures would probably make the payback over 20 years not accounting for the investment opportunity of the substantial initial savings.

When these fixtures are $100 a fixture and they have more design features they'll be interesting.

macv: you are a wealth of information! Thank you for keeping me on the right path. It seems like the LED lighting may not be the holy grail I was looking for. The 3 3/4" low voltage fixture seems interesting. I like the idea that the recessed light in the ceiling would actually be smaller (than a 5" or 6"). All of those big round circles on the ceiling can start to look annoying. I usually prefer at least a 75w bulb - do you think these are comparable in terms of light output? Also, what manufacturer makes this type of fixture?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!

Most make a 4" fixtures and Lightolier makes a 3 3/4" one called LyteCaster and a 3" one called LytePoints.

"and use cf's..long life 1/3 the heat of an incandescant
and costs about 1/3 the cost of incandescant to use. "

And in a recessed fixture lasts about 1/3 the life of an incandescent unless you get a CFL-only fixture.

Not so.
CFL's are a replacement and don't require a special fixture.

The original "modular" CFL is just like a big fluorescent tube lamp except they are thinner and loop back so they are much shorter. They have pin connections and there's a permanent magnetic or electronic ballast in the fixture housing.

The kind of CFL that can be screwed into a fixture that was originally designed for an incandescent lamp is called an "Integrated" or "Integral" CFL" and it not only has a medium screw base but a small electronic ballast at the base that is thrown away along with the lamp when the lamp or the ballast fails.

alabamanicole's point is that the modular CFL's in a dedicated fluorescent fixture are more reliable, last longer, save more energy and provide better light than Integral CFL's with a self-contained ballast.

When used in a recessed light fixture with the base up, the ballast of common CFL's can fail prematurely due to the additional heat. This is also true in one that is covered by insulation. It is best to use Reflector CFL specifically designed for higher temperatures and dimmers in such locations but these CFL's can be 3 to 4 times the cost of standard spiral CFL's.

Here is a 3 3/4" recessed fixture designed specifically for a modular Compact Fluorescent pin base lamp with the ballast built into the housing rather than the lamp itself. It is rated at twice the life of an integrated-ballast spiral CFL.

The beam spread is wide and it cannot be aimed like halogen incandescent fixtures but Lightolier also makes a wall washer model that has a small side wall reflector positioned to throw light laterally to light a wall. They also make one with different types of glass lenses to hide the lamp and allow them to be used in wet locations.

Lightolier also makes a 5" and 6" diameter dedicated CFL fixtures that take larger wattage lamps (the additional beam spread is unnecessary in a residence) and some models position the lamp horizontally which is the most efficient position for a fluorescent lamp. A 5" wide downlight is offered with cross-blade fins that effectively reduce the visibility of the lamp.

The biggest design issue with CFL's is commonly misunderstood. When outdoor light or light from an incandescent lamp is reduced, the color becomes warmer (lower color temperature) so we naturally expect that to happen when we dim a residential light fixture. However, the color temperature of a fluorescent lamp remains constant as it is dimmed so we usually think the color of the light becomes more bluish and unpleasant. The higher the color temperature (up to 5000K) of the CFL, the closer it is to daylight but the creepier it looks to us when dimmed. This is a lighting designer's nightmare.

All we can do is hope that incandescent technology can catch up before tungsten-halogen lamps no longer meet the government energy conservation standards which is currently scheduled to happen in 10 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: CFL downlight

"CFL's are a replacement and don't require a special fixture."

Except that moat if the cheap CFLs are designed for base down operation ONLY.

If used base up they overheat and burn (as in smoke and smell).

Base up CFLs are available, but are not the cheap ones.

CFL's are not as simple and forgiving as incandescent lamps. To operate efficiently CFL's need to operate at a specific mercury vapor pressure and this can be negatively affected by the position of the lamp and the type of fixture in which it is placed.

The short answer is that the only use that does not compromise the efficiency and/or lifespan of a typical integrated-ballast "replacement" CFL is in a well-ventilated fixture in a base-up or horizontal position like in an open ceiling fixture.

Problem #1 - Base-up in enclosed or recessed fixtures
If the temperature of the integrated-ballast "replacement" CFL increases enough in a poorly ventilated fixture, more mercury will vaporize lowering the output of the lamp. This heat can also drastically shorten the life of the ballast since it is trapped inside the fixture with the lamp instead of positioned remotely like in fixtures designed specifically for compact fluorescent lamps.

Problem #2 - Base-Down in open fixtures
When mercury condenses in a CFL it collects at the lower part of the lamp. If this is at the base, the higher temperature of the electrodes and ballast can cause the mercury to revaporize lowering the output of the lamp by 15 to 20%.

Manufacturers will not put any of this information on their packaging because the most common use for these integrated-ballast "replacement" CFL's is in table lamps and in enclosed or recessed lighting fixtures where they are prone to lowered output and a shorter lifespan.

Before something can be considered efficient it needs to work properly. IMHO screw-base integrated-ballast "replacement" CFL's have a long way to go before they can be effectively used in residential lighting design. However, they do work fine exposed on my basement ceiling.

I got LED bulbs from costco that were about $5 each. You get about 40-60 watts of light for 1.5 watts, and they stay cool. Newer larger Walmarts have a better selection but run a little more. The bright is real white but I like it. It reminds me of sun light. The warm light gives out more of a yellow light, probably closer to what you are used to. Lights of America is the brand name and they last 30,000 hours and are not for use in dimmer.