Yes, probably. My Kohler does a lousy job of cleaning the bowl. I've learned that Toto is much better for that reason. I'd gladly have paid twice the price had I known. It's one of those things that drives you crazy all the time and will seem worth every penny to get it right the first time.

I think I paid more than $500 for my Kohler Memoirs? Not sure.

My "boys" have the Drake II in the bathroom downstairs and love it....very good flushing system.

Upstairs in the "girls" bathroom is the Aquia III-I like it because it's a skirted toilet, the dual flush is fine but to be honest, the Drake II has the better flush.

I have both the EcoDrake by Toto and the UltraMax Toto. What piece in your home do you use more frequently than your toilet? It is SO worth it to have no worries and just make something in your life go a little more smoothly than it used to. My new toilets do all they are supposed to do, never jam up and don't need toilet brush follow up. You won't regret going with any of the Toto options in my experience. Read reviews too to get more consumer feedback.

Here is a link that might be useful: plumber website with toilet reviews and ratings

We recently replaced our master bath toilet with the Toto EcoDrake and are so happy with it. I did a lot of research and found that no one was thrilled with Kohler toilets. For the past 2 months our family of 4 (incl 2 young boys) has been using it while remodeling our other bathroom. No clogs, only one flush needed every time, never need a brush.

I love my Kohler Cimmaron. I put it in our master about 6 months ago as a "fill in" because we're not ready to tackle the master as a whole project but the toilet was experiencing multiple repair issues and something had to be done now. It was super easy to install, is much quieter flushing and everything goes away and stays away---all on 1.2 gallons of water. I've only had one or two issues of needing to do "touch up" brush cleaning, and to put it delicately, it was after instances of, um, extreme distress. It does what it needs to do in an unnoticable fashion---which is the hallmark of good design. I liked it enough that I bought a second one for the hall bath/public bath that I had wanted a more streamlined look with a skirt. I may opt for that in the end when we do that bath this summer, but just getting rid of the old 7 gallon unit (why didn't I do that much sooner?!) but I can't imagine that any "prettier" toilet can perform any better.

Almost forgot. The Kohler Cimmaron is rated a 10 on the MAP scale, which is the highest rating. I only considered toilets with a 9 or 10 rating, which left out some pretty popular choices.

Here is a link that might be useful: MAP ratings.

neilometer asks: "I am looking at the newest Cimarron (class 6). Does anyone have feedback on its ability to 'clean the bowl' ?"

Here is a link that might be useful: On Cimarron's ability to clean the bowl

Thanks for all the replies. I am fully aware of Terry Love and his site. I also do not question the performance of the Toto toilets. It's just hard for me to believe that the Cimarron is that bad and/or the Toto is worth spending double for.

I mean, the toilets we have now are $50 cheap-o builder-grade no-names. I can't see any of the toilets I'm considering being worse that those. LOL

Again, thanks.

The thing is you are not going to be buying a toilet every year...once its in, its in for years..so the extra $250 over 10 years is $25 a year.

But, if the cimarron class 6 is good on its own, thats $250 you can spend somewhere else...

We just bought the cimarron for the kids bath so we will see. (not installed yet) I think we will go to the toto for the powder room downstairs b/c that gets more traffic and I like the one piece...that's the thing about the cimarron...it's two piece which is a little more of a pain to clean...that's what I have read from my research.

good luck and if you learn anything new, pleae post- I am sure others would be interested too!

Thanks, skatermom! I have been remodeling my master bath off and on for four years now. I just finished laying out a new tile floor and have brand new vanities ready to put in, so the toilet and vanity lights are the only things left to buy. I think that is why I'm balking at prices all of a sudden.

The room is pretty modern, so that's initially why I was looking at the Aquia and Vespin, although the tank design on the Cimarron is pretty modern looking to me.

The most frustrating thing to me about the Toto/Kohler debate is that each side is fully entrenched. From what I've read, the people who sell these toilets have to choose one or the other, so you can't find a fully objective showroom that will demo both models side by side.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong on that issue, but that seems to be the case.

For what its worth... when I was researching the toilet for my daughter's bathroom (which we're currently renovating) I did not want to spend $$$ for a Toto (as I did in the master bath). I did, however, want a sleek-looking, great-performing toilet, preferably a one-piece. After much research I decided on the American Standard Cadet 3 One-Piece. It was nearly as pricy on line as the lower Totos, but then I found it at Lowes for $229. I had actually purchased it (though not picked it up yet) when my daughter spotted a nearly-new Toto Carolina at a yard sale (with washlet!) for $150. But I saw the cadet in person and it's pretty nice. It's quite petite-looking, despite being elongated and comfort height. I am sure we would have liked it, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cadet 3 at Lowes $229

Thanks for the Cadet 3 link. I think the fact that it's a one piece really helps it look more modern.

I'll put that one on my list as well.

As far as brands go, I keep hearing the same three:

Toto
American Standard
Kohler

Once in awhile I see an unfamiliar brand, but it's usually either some Euro brand that's unavailable here, super high end, or crap (or all three!).

Im not sure if you're doing a fair comparison, you really should be comparing the Toto drake to the cimmeron, not the vespin.

the price diff is there, but its not as much as the skirted toilet. That is the price diff in the brand. I see on a website here, 253 for a comfort height cimmeron and 318 for a comfort height drake, both without seat, so a diff of $65.

whether you want a skirted vs not, well, thats another premium you'll pay.

We have a Kohler in the back bath and a Toto Mercer in the master bath. I cannot quantify it but I will just say that the Toto is much nicer.

chris,

I was going off of local store prices only. I realize I could get cheaper prices online, but I need to have it installed before the end of the year, so...

If the Drake was only $65 diff locally, I wouldn't even be asking. They want $50 just for the seat for a Toto at my local hardware store.

I was also under the impression that the Drake was basically a Vespin without the skirt? I believe I read that on Terry Love's site somewhere. Dunno.

Right now, I'm thinking Cadet 3 single piece from Lowes. Thanks stacyneil!

neilometer asks: "I was also under the impression that the Drake was basically a Vespin without the skirt?"

Yes, the Vespin II is the Drake II with a skirt. The "-II" models are HET Water Sense (1.28 gpf compared to 1.6 gpf of the first-generation Drake), and have the double cyclone (rather than rim) flush action; and the Vespin II (except for the black one) comes with the Sanagloss treatment of the interior bowl surface to make the surface less likely to "hold" solid waste streaks.

"They want $50 just for the seat for a Toto at my local hardware store"

I think that (Washlets aside) Toto sells only soft-close seats any more; there is a two-to-one price differential between the low end Toto ss113/ss114 and the high end Toto ss204/ss214, and I do not know why. The specs show all of the Toto soft-close seats to be of moulded plastic and to weigh three kilograms (6.6 pounds), the main differences being in whether or not the hinge is exposed and the shape of the scallop or chamfer around the top of the lid.

herring_maven,

Thanks for those details! I think I saw your posts over at TL's site?

About the "scallop or chamfer" of the lid, my wife and I recently stayed in a nice hotel which had a dual flush, super modern toilet (not Toto), and she disliked the seat. She said it had "sharp edges" that hurt when she sat on it. I think the seat sloped inward at an angle that was just too steep or something.

Is this a common feature on most of these newer toilets? I think we would prefer a flat seat.

neilometer asks: "I think I saw your posts over at TL's site?"

I have a username (not herring_maven) and password there, but IIRC I have actually posted on that site only once. So if you saw posts (plural) they were not mine. (grin)

" ... my wife ... disliked the seat. She said it had 'sharp edges' that hurt when she sat on it. I think the seat sloped inward at an angle that was just too steep or something."

I think that Terry Love (who occasionally posts in this forum also) addressed that in the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: The word may be

Thanks again for the help everyone.

So far, I am leaning toward the Cadet 3 one piece from Lowes. The time constraints really are a factor here. I think if I got a Toto at this point, it would be the Vespin II.

I will probably make my final decision tomorrow and install the toilet on Monday.

The Age old question of what toilet is better!

To be honest, it depends on the models. Some Kohler toilets will perform better than Toto toilets, vice versa. When it comes to overall performance, I have had much better luck with Kohler (Installed in rental units and my home) Toto makes an OK product, but I recently looked at different reports about toilets and found that Kohler has upgraded their flushing technology. All of their new Eco models are flushing at the top of the MAP test (Which is the only toilet performance test) This score indicates that the toilets are plug resistant. Also, I did some digging into what makes the products different, and found that Kohler glazes all of their trapways, even on entry level models, Toto does not. What this means is the internal parts of the toilet are smooth, like the external parts, it prevents plugging. Toto does not take the time to do this on all models. I also had a 1 piece Toto in my home that I switched to a 1 piece Kohler. For the last year, I kept noticing a line that ran accross the bottom of the tank, I found out that this was part of the molding process, and needs to be sanded down, it never was, now I see it on Toto toilets all the time. It was kind of dumb, but once my wife pointed this line out, I could never, "not see it" My new Kohler Cimarron does not have any molding lines or visible joints on it.

So in looking at toilets, I would say go with Kohler, I have had great luck with the Cimarron line, both 2 piece and 1 piece models. From my understanding the same technology is going into all of Kohlers toilets.

I can't understand the need to spend $500+ on a toilet. I forget what I spent for a Memoirs years ago. It was not cheap but was a closeout sale (think they retailed $300 and still about the same last I looked). So (with Kohler being a good brand), I could get rid of my old ugly builder one for something pretty, lol. I'd never expect a toilet to keep itself clean. They might look clean at all times? But I highly doubt they are clean.

As far as the Memoirs level being a lousy toilet, I see it rates >=800 on the Map site with 1000 being the highest. They state 500 is exceptional flushing performance with 350 being sufficient, 250 the usual male "load".

"Q. We noticed that the maximum MaP score is 1,000g (2.2 pounds). Just to be safe, shouldn't we limit our interest to only those models that achieve the highest score of 1,000g?

A. While there is nothing wrong with limiting your interest to models that flush 1,000g, you may be doing yourself a disservice. The U.S. EPA's WaterSense program sets the minimum flushing performance level at 350g (12 oz). This level represents approximately the 99th percentile ��" or, in other words, in 99 times out of 100 the actual mass flushed in a toilet is less than 350g. We feel that any toilet model that flushes 500g or more would provide exceptional flushing performance. What's more, some of the most efficient, stylish, and cost-effective toilet models have MaP scores of less than 1,000g."

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Apr 5, 13 at 14:35