First...the copper pan...is the copper pan itself sloped? Or is it a flat pan that hold sloped deck mud?

Mongo

I'm glad I wasn't the one to break the bad news.

rmaxharrj-- I take it you're up here in New England?

Hi Bill and Mongo - Yes, I'm about 13 miles west of Boston (Lincoln).

The shower pan is flat and was custom ordered for our shower area. So it looks like a shallow rectangular pan with sides about 4" (or so) tall. I saw that installed, but didn't get to see any deck mud (was out of town for that part of the process).

The installer suggested running an acid wash over the existing floor, putting in a drain extender, and tiling again. At the moment we are insisting that the whole mud deck come out, but now I'm starting to wonder what the heck is the best thing to do.

Thank you...

If the copper pan was put flat on the floor, with no "pre-slope" under the copper, then the copper pan and everything on top must come out.

I'm nearly 100% sure the copper pan was put flat on the floor, but I'm not sure if I can get the plumber or the tiler to 'fess up to this now that it's disappeared under the tile. Everything has been so slow on the remodel that my memory may be starting to fail on me. I can remember standing on the copper pan looking at the drain and there was nothing but plywood under it at that point.

So the pan and all has to come out, but I assume the wall tile installed above the pan edges can remain?

Delaine

Okay-- you need some 'splainin". The reason I knew you were up here is because New England is the last bastion of newly installed copper pans. Unbelieveably, it's been code now for almost a decade that the pan membrane be sloped, as well as the tile. The reason is simple, and makes alot of sense, and that is that water that gets through the tile, grout, and mud, will hit the membrane and if sloped, it'll all drain to the weepholes at the base of the drain. In the case of a flat bottomed pan, the water just sits there, and "ferments". Between mold, mildew, as well as dead skin, body oils, etc. which will feed growing bacteria, it can really get unhealthy. The problem is that for some reason, very few up in this area (and by very few, I'm talking tile guys, plumbers, AND general contractors)even know that the code existws, and the same spec is in two different codes!! I'll list them at the bottom of my post.

As for what to do now, the copper pan does NOT need to come out. However, you DO need to install a "pan within a pan". What I normally do when faced with an already installed copper pan, is first I'll make sure there ARE weepholes at the base of the drain. With copper pans, alot of times they're not even there. If there aren't any weepholes, I'll take a drill and pop a few into the "stem" between the pan and the drain cover, atleast one or two of them being close to the base. Once that's done, I'll then do a preslope inside the copper, allow it to harden, and then use a urethane waterproofing called Ultraset (made by Hydroment) to form my own pan over the preslope. Once that sets up (usually overnight), I'll form my final slope. Now, so long as the pan is in good shape (and it should be, if it's new!), then you only need to seal the Ultraset to the side of the copper where it goes up the wall behind the cement board (should go up the wall about 8- 10 inches).Just make sure your installer knows that this time, he needs to make sure his pitch is nice and uniform and cone shaped from the walls to the drain!!

Here are the codes:

IRC Preslope code:
2000 IRC:
P2709. 3 Installation. Lining materials shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) to weep holes in the subdrain by means of a smooth, solidly formed subbase, shall be properly recessed and fastened to ap-proved backing so as not to occupy the space required for the wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25. 4 mm) above the finished threshold.

Uniform Plumbing Code related to shower pan construction.

"412.8 When the construction of on-site built-up shower receptors is
permitted by the Administrative Authority, one of the following means shall
be employed:
(1) Shower receptors built directly on the ground:
Shower receptors built directly on the ground shall be watertight and shall
be constructed from approved type dense, non-absorbent and non-corrosive
materials. Each such receptor shall be adequately reinforced, shall be
provided with an approved flanged floor drain designed to make a watertight
joint in the floor, and shall have smooth, impervious, and durable surfaces.
(2) Shower receptors built above ground:
When shower receptors are built above ground the sub-floor and rough side of
walls to a height of not less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of
the finished dam or threshold shall be first lined with sheet plastic*,
lead* or copper* or shall be lined with other durable and watertight
materials.
All lining materials shall be pitched one-quarter (1/4) inch per foot
(20.9 mm/m) to weep holes in the subdrain of a smooth and solidly formed
sub-base. All such lining materials shall extend upward on the rough jambs
of the shower opening to a point no less
than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold
and shall extend outward over the top of the rough threshold and be turned
over and fastened on the outside face of both the rough threshold and the
jambs.
Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may be built-up on the job site
of not less than three (3) layers of standard grade fifteen (15) pound (6.8
kg) asphalt impregnated roofing felt. The bottom layer shall be fitted to
the formed sub-base and each succeeding layer thoroughly hot mopped to that
below. All corners shall be carefully fitted and shall be made strong and
watertight by folding or lapping, and each corner shall be reinforced with
suitable webbing hot-mopped in place. All folds, laps, and reinforcing
webbing shall extend at least four (4) inches (102 mm) in all directions
from the corner and all webbing shall be of approved type and mesh,
producing a tensile strength of not less than fifty (50) psi (344.5 kPa) in
either direction. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may also consist
of multi-layers of other approved equivalent materials suitably reinforced
and carefully fitted in place on the job site as elsewhere required in this
section.
Linings shall be properly recessed and fastened to approved backing so
as not to occupy the space required for the wall covering and shall not be
nailed or perforated at any point which may be less than one (1) inch (25.4
mm) above the finished dam or threshold. An approved type sub-drain shall be
installed with every shower sub-pan or lining. Each such sub-drain shall be
of the type that sets flush with the sub-base and shall be equipped with a
clamping ring or other device to make a tight connection between the lining
and the drain. The sub-drain shall have weep holes into the waste line. The
weep holes located in the subdrain clamping ring shall be protected from
clogging.

*Lead and copper sub-pans or linings shall be insulated from all conducting
substances other than their connecting drain by fifteen (15) pound (6.8 kg)
asphalt felt or its equivalent and no lead pan or liner shall be constructed
of material weighing less than four (4) pounds per square foot (19.5 kg/m2).
Copper pans or liners shall be at least No. 24 B & S Gauge (0.02 inches)
(0.5 mm). Joints in lead pans or liners shall be burned. Joints in copper
pans or liners shall be soldered or brazed. Plastic pans shall not be coated
with asphalt based materials."

The copper pan installation was featured on this old house featured in MA. And they did not use a preslope. Even the "experts" are clueless. But I must say, the copper pan they had fabricated was like a piece of art work. Too bad they botched the job by missing the preslope. To top it off, they used premixed thinset (junk) for the shower tiling.

Tom, there's not a show ever shown on television where the tile is done right. Not one.

Many, many thanks, Bill, for the information and sensible solution. I think the only way to know for sure about the pan is to take everything out of it and check to see if it's sloped or not. But I'm willing to bet that it's flat to the subfloor. My GC is a good guy, but the tiler was brought in unexpectedly as a new sub. I hope I can finesse the interaction between everyone to get the re-do right, but that's a whole other story!

Thanks again!

Problem solved!

Best in getting it repaired,

Mongo

*covering my ears and going lalala*

My brand new master shower does not have a pre sloped pan. They also had a very hard time sloping my mosiac tiles during install(long thin tiles).

It looks/works fine now, please tell me it does not need to be redone...

Let me put it this way-- It's not done properly, and may cause problems, as well as decreased life of the shower down the road.

That said, flat bottom pans were used for decades before someone finally realised the problems they were causing, and unfortunately, they're still being installed on a regular basis now.

You can take it from there.

I think that flat bottom pans are the reason that many people think that all tiled shower pans are moldy and smelly and always have problems. A properly built tile pan shouldn't be hard to maintain or smell.

My brand new master shower does not have a pre sloped pan. They also had a very hard time sloping my mosiac tiles during install(long thin tiles).

It looks/works fine now, please tell me it does not need to be redone...

If it's new construction and does not meet code, I'd want it to meet code. You'll get a better shower and the installer will learn to follow code.

Or you can leave it as is. You may not ever have problems...or you may have problems.

The irony? I'm not a tile guy like Bill. Yet I still know code. Why do Bill and I know code? Simply because we're professionals. He in his field, me in mine. We didn't flunk out of cooking school, or get fired from our jobs at the factory, or flunk out of college, and decide as an alternative to set tile or build houses.

And if we had flunked out of cooking school, that's cool...as long as we learn about our new job before we pick up a margin trowel and bust open a bag of thinset for the first time.

I'd say close to 70% of people in construction build incorrectly.

That's inexcusable.

When I buy a new car I shouldn't have to learn about internal combustion engines and then visit the plant to make sure the line guys are building my car correctly. It shouldn't be that way in construction either.

Sad.

Getting off my soapbox so I can go decorate the Christmas tree,
Mongo

Well, get to it, mister!! You're slippin behind!!

Ya don't think Santa's gonna come to a nekkid tree, do ya???

Stay on the soap box! It is generous professionals like you (and bill and others) that make GW such a great place to come for advice. Yes, I am bringing my 114 yr old house up to code and it cost me a fortune but I want it done right, I know the codes are there for good reason.

Poor installer who hates my difficult, old, nothing standard house is going to have a conversation with me soon... to be fair I think he has done excellent work to date - 3 baths and kitchen with lots o' special requests, my tiles are unusual ... but so purty. :)

Enjoy your tree! if I can get the construction dust off mine it's going up tomorrow.

Okay, we (kids and I) found the purdiest tree we could and then we cut it down.

But then we made it purdier!

Plus we did the final yard cleanup. Leaves, etc.

Then my wife invited a few couples over for the late afternoon so I HAD to properly entertain the men and womenfolk by watching the Pats beat up on the Steelers.

Ahhh....

It was a good day!

Mongo

Beat up is right!! Holy Christmas!!

3 more to go!!

week 16, december 23 scenario..Undefeated NE Patriots host the winless Miami Dolphins..Dolphins underdogs by 28(my prediction) and not only do the Dolphins cover, but actually WIN, to protect the frnachise's 1972 undefeated season, as the only one in NFL history..remember in the mid 80's the Dolphins beat the Bears as they were trying to go undefeated..You heard it here 1st!!!!

Funny-- I was thinking when I typed my last post that the only other team with a perfect record has one going again THIS year!! LOL I didn't say anything, though, cuz I was tryin to be nice!! :-)