Remodel - Hire GC or sub myself? Who does what?

16 years ago

We just moved and the hall bath needs a total makeover. It's the original 1950s and there's some good water damage going on behind the shower tiles and surrounding wall around the tub.

I'm pretty handy, but after fixing my old house, I really want to hire someone else to do this since I'm still tired! LOL We've got the money, but want to be cost efficient since there are other very needed projects througout the house.

So I'm wondering about hiring a GC or subbing out everything myself to save the money. I think I could do it, but I'm not exactly sure who's licensed to do what and in what order??

Like the demo of the tile and damaged wallboard. Who?

A plumber to install new tub/shower fixture and toilet, but who does the new vanity? Then do I have the plumber out again to do the sink/faucet?

Does a drywall guy fix the surrounding wall and put in the cement backer board for the shower? THEN have a tile guy do the tile in the shower?

If there's mold/water issues going on behind the shower and the bottom of the studs need cutting out and replacing, does the drywall guy do that or a framer?

Thanks for your thoughts!

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Comments (8)

qdognj
16 years ago
going thru the same dilemma right now..Leaning towards a GC, just for the reasons/concerns you mention...scheduling is the most difficult, and who takes care of what if things don't line-up/match...
dseng
16 years ago
Julie wrote:

"Like the demo of the tile and damaged wallboard. Who?"
A demolition crew
"A plumber to install new tub/shower fixture and toilet, but who does the new vanity?"The carpenter or cabinet maker.
"Then do I have the plumber out again to do the sink/faucet?" Yes
"Does a drywall guy fix the surrounding wall and put in the cement backer board for the shower? THEN have a tile guy do the tile in the shower?" The drywall guy can fix the drywall, but the tile contractor should do everything but the plumbing in the shower. (Unless your tile guy is smart and uses Schluter Kerdi for showers - then you use drywall in the shower)
"If there's mold/water issues going on behind the shower and the bottom of the studs need cutting out and replacing, does the drywall guy do that or a framer?" Reframing should be done by the carpenter - not the drywall guy.

I'd suggest giving the idea of hiring a good GC some serious thought. It may save you money and time in the long run. Having someone who has connections with local tradesmen and supply houses, who can coordinate the timing of who works on what and when, who understands the relationships/cause & effect between materials and choices that you make, and can reach quick resolution of problems could be be very valuable. Good GC's can be hard to find, but for a homeowner to find a bunch of good subs can be even harder.
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I’ve acted as GC on my last few renovation projects, one which involved three bathroom gut remodels and a brand new kitchen with all new appliances and cabinets, new hardwood floors, doors, and moving walls. Subs I had: (1) paint/general construction/drywall, (2) plumber, (3) tile, (4) floor guy. I did the bulk of this in about a month and a half, with just little aesthetic touch ups later. I saved both money and time. Time, because I found that GCs will schedule one thing after another, not wanting people to work around each other, but because I was on a really tight timeframe that my son and I wouldn’t have a place to live, I scheduled a lot of folks to work at the same time around each other. They grumbled a bit more, but I was there every day to smooth things over, help, and just be a charming friendly person who brought cookies and snacks :). That said, to echo a lot of what folks said, it’s important to (1) be there on site every day to catch things early that are not aesthetically what you’d like, before it becomes more difficult to fix later, (2) have great people skills to motivate folks and work through issues, (3) have great organizational and project management skills (4) make decisions quickly and easily (being willing to do your own research) (5) be efficient about ordering supplies and materials on your own, which really saves time and money. And maybe most importantly (6) have the energy to deal with this all — it takes a lot of energy. I was exhausted. The reason I undertook it is that some GCs I talked to gave me a 4 month estimate on the work, and I just didn’t have that kind of time. All the sub folks were referred by my broker, so they were really responsive and professional and above par. I’ve continued to use them on other renovation projects, and they’ve always been really responsive and great. I may be lucky, because I’ve heard of nightmare stories as well, but it’s just to say that if you get good referrals, I‘ve found it’s not always the case that you can’t get subs to show up or have leverage compared to a GC. In fact, on a current project I have, all my same subs agreed to take on the work for me, right away, when my GC couldn’t get his subs for weeks out. I respectfully don’t agree with the comment that if you can’t tell about running an electrical line you can’t be a GC. If you trust your subs to be good at what they do, they’ll guide you through everything and help you make the best decisions. That’s what they’re there for. I‘ve done several remodels now, and haven’t had any issues later on (I lived in that particular house for 5 years). Anyway, I know it’s been 6 years since this post, but since I always get value from older comments and advice, I thought I’d still share my own experiences for others with this same question.
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You're thinking that subs have a single job, complete it, and then move on to the next. In reality, it's much more fluid than that. A contractor will have multiple jobs in progress all at the same time. He will try to not have them all be in the same stage at the same time so that his employees can move smoothly between their responsibilities. But delays are a completely normal part of the construction process. Client A's job is scheduled to last approximately 2 weeks, but because of weather delays the yard couldn't be dug for the new drain, and the special order sink from Bulgaria is on backorder and will take another 6 weeks to even show up in customs. And he;s working on three other rough in plumbing jobs and a final plumbing install, all with their own issues that negatively impact his scheduling.And then his brother in law has an emergency hot water tank replacement with a big leak to help clean up. And you want him to show up on time for your job too. So he does the best to make everyone happy that he can, but someone isn't going to have their job worked on that day. He has the best intentions, but he's a plumber, not a PR guy with a master;s in communication. You job gets put on the back burner until his brother in law;s home is finished, and since the weather has changed, he's got to get that trench in the yard for his other customer before the three days of rain set in. Then, he shows up at your house late that day and does manage to get the job started. He says he'll be back in the morning to work on it again, but again, previous committments or emergency work take precedent and he doesn't manage to make it to your home that day. A top notch guy would call and let his customers know of the scheduling change, but again, he's a tradesman, not a orator. What I'm saying is that a job is a moving target, and yours is only one of many. You will have delays in your job that will impact your subs as well as your subs having issues that impact your job. That's part of being the GC. You have to deal with down time, rescheduling, and poor communication. It's like a square dance with constantly changing dancers. And it's unrealistic to expect them to all perform perfectly in time with the music and for the musicians to never get tired and need to take a break. And the other "secret" in acting as your own GC is that you are the low man on the totem pole when it comes to subs and any jobs that they might do on your project. You're a one off client. No repeat business. Other projects have GCs that they have worked for before and have loyalty to and whom your sub will prioritize over your work. And other GCs provide the opportunity to become one of their regular subs if they impress them. So, your job may take twice as long as if the sub was working for a licensed contractor. And, it may also cost you a bit more as well because of a lack of a past relationship and no volume work. To be a GC, you really have to have patience, and a capacity to make down tme as productive as you can from other trades. And you'll have to take the initiative to do the communicating. Start an email list for all of your contractors with a "state of the union" progress report so that everyone is one the same page. That doesn't mean you won't hae delays, but hopefully, the communication will help to diminish them.
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Incoming minority opinion: it depends. It depends upon how knowledgeable you are about plumbing and electrical issues, how extensive the remodel is, and how much legwork you want to do to find just the right outlets/switches/plates, lighting... How closely are you willing to spec the job and how much will you leave to the pros? Are you aware of the cost implications of your decisions? Can you coordinate the work from different subcontractors so they don't get in each others way and get their work done in a timely fashion? (This can have a huge effect on the time for the remodel.) Sometimes there are many more options than you might think. I don't know if this is good or bad, but some expertise (via GC or KD) is useful. We GCd a relatively modest kitchen and bath remodel a few years ago. In the kitchen we replaced a U-shape with an L plus an island, and put wood floors over vinyl. No walls taken out, no new plumbing and only one new electrical outlet. The baths were similarly simple with only a small amount of new plumbing and no new electrical. The guys did just what we asked them to do, and no more. It was reasonably successful, but there were some problems. For example, a couple of weeks after completion we had a water leak. Bad news for wood floors. The plumber blamed the cabinet guy (long but relevant story) and the cabinet guy blamed the plumber. In the end, nobody would take responsibility. Rather than go to court, we ate it. In retrospect, if we had been smarter (e.g. mined gardenweb) the end product would have been nicer. But it was still OK. We currently have a GC to take responsibility and a KD to oversee the details of this extensive and complex remodel. Yes, it costs more, but it is easy to overlook seemingly little things that become bigger later. Sometimes I simply don't recognize when I should ask a question. These guys do make mistakes and spec down, given the chance. So it really does depend on the project scope; your knowledge; how closely you want to spec the job; how much material you want the contractor to supply; your daily availability; your willingness to stand over the workers' shoulders and immediately confront something that does not appear kosher; and your patience. Wait until after the job is completed to try to quit your bad habits. You may even pick up a few new ones during the process.
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I can relate. We GC'd the last time around and I wouldn't do it again. We 'thought' we were DIY'ers since we had previously done a lot of DIY. Didnt think the kitchen would be that difficult since the layout and things like plumbing was not going to change. The comments about GC and subcontractor relationships we found to be true. Also we had several contractors working in empty house at the same time...they didn't get along. More headaches than value. I agree that trying to use existing thermofoil cabs may be a mistake. We currently have yellowing thermofoil cabs and it *is* the reason why we are doing a complete remodel. I briefly considered just doing new counters and the typical facelift, but the cabs although in really good shape, were really the problem. I hated the thought of wasting money on the new materials like flooring, countertops, appliances,etc. to still be unhappy. So I put kitchen remodel on back burner till we saved more money. You can still look at all the wonderful photos here and on houzz! And work on a game plan. This year with a full design set in hand, I started looking for a GC. I found in my area, there are 2 types of GCs. Some do design-to-build, others just install. For most of the year, I guess I was contacting the wrong ppl - design to build ppl. They would come in and begin to re-design my design (we used a KD this time which we did not use the last time). Our design was based on "our" lifestyle. Many, of course, like the KD, wanted the cabinetry piece of it. I was already leaning towards a cab company (dutchwood) and didn't want the GC job to be tied to cabs. It became very frustrating looking for just the right person. Of course the design-to-build firms were much more expensive than an install only (plumbing, electric, etc). Just some things I've learned along the way.
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bestyears
16 years ago
My brother is a plumber and I'm always stunned by the projects he takes on -I keep telling him, "Wow, I never would have thought a plumber did all that." In a sense, he sometimes acts a general contractor. So for example, he could arrange for you to get frameless shower doors, demo an old tub, order and install a new one, order and install faucets, vanities(although he does not do granite or marble tops). He even arranges for painters etc. to do their part. Now of course, if he's on the hook for these, he's adding a markup, so I guess that's the rub. Having someone else manage the process comes with a pricetag.

We are working on facelifts for three baths right now, so I called our local plumber (who I love -my brother is 2000 miles away!), and sure enough he too could handle the entire project. I asked him to ballpark portions of the project for me, which he did. I then went and checked things out myself. On the frameless shower, for example, he told me about $2000. I went to a local glass place, and found I could do it for $1500, so am doing it myself. And I've ended up buying the faucets, tubs, countertops, etc. myself too because I could do so much better $$$ wise. I'm having a granite guy install the countertops then will have the plumber come out and install all the faucets the next day.

So you might start with a good, local plumber, see what parts he can handle, and then check his references for a similar project.
Lynn
jbjust
16 years ago
I'm in the same camp as you. I have an 11X9 bathroom in which we are: replacing all the fixtures and vanity; enlarging the one window in the room; laying new tile; and building a wall between the shower and tub area so that we can do a three-walled (potentially doorless) shower in place of the two glass walls that currently surround the shower. The two estimates that we've received have been for $25,000 and $45,000, both of which seem ridiculous since we're not moving any plumbing.

We're hiring a designer to do our drawings and we're going to be our own GC's. Are folks like us and JulieBatt crazy?
jperiod
Original Author
16 years ago
jbjust, $25-45K?! Holy cow! What, is everything going to be guilded in gold? LOL For that kind of money, I'd do all the work myself!

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've got a plumber I've used in the past that I'll call. I also have a GC type handyguy that helped me finish off some projects in my last house, so I'll call him too (he was a carpenter by trade, but does tile and other random stuff as well). Some of the things I'm sure I'll end up installing myself if the prices seem silly, just because I can. Sigh... It never ends, does it?
jbjust
16 years ago
Is there a good resources that folks like me or JulieBatt could use in trying to be our own bathroom GC? I'm thinking a book or a website. This place is great, but it seems like most people are either so handy they do it themselves or just use a GC.
golden2007
16 years ago
Just be sure to follow good guidelines when hiring a GC. We hired one a few weeks ago to help update a bathroom. He took off with our $1500 deposit. He calls periodically to torment us, pretending he will drop off the things that he purchased for us, but he never shows up. He called one day in a rage because we had called to ask when he was "really" going to drop off our things. Now, we would never let him in the house. He is one twisted sick-o. Get good references; check with BBB; etc. We neglected to do this (thought it was going to be a couple of days work) and are we sorry -- we knew better too. Don't let anybody rush you into anything. Even after getting estimate(s), take a day or two to think about it - question anything that looks vague. Good luck.
weedyacres
16 years ago
I don't know about books on how to be a GC, but Black & Decker publishes a good DIY book on bathroom remodeling. You could use that to educate yourself about the proper way to do things, and that would help talk with subs about what you want.

I did a quick search on "general contractor" on Amazon, and came up with several options that had good reviews. So you could probably browse through your local bookstore.

Remodel - Hire GC or sub myself? Who does what?

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Remodel - Hire GC or sub myself? Who does what?

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qdognj

dseng

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