The dealer is correct. They will be penalized for a return, and they are only passing along that fee to you. Their return policy is no doubt listed in store on on their paperwork and is designed to reduce the incidences of buyer's remorse. They have offered to modify their fee to assist you in obtaining the cooktop that you now prefer, so if you do truly prefer that cooktop's features and it's not about buyer's remorse over a "better deal", then you should jump on that offer. An even exchange is fair to the retailer and to you. You will always be able to find a "better deal" after the fact on items as the technology improves and becomes more widely available and popular.

Oh, yes, I agree that a better deal will keep coming up as technology improves, but I think my situation is a little different, no? This is not just typical buyer's remorse. (It's only been a couple of days, NOT 2 weeks or 2 months later, after delivery of the item which has not even been touched or installed yet that I found out about the new version.) I had discussed w/ the dealer at length about pros & cons of the different induction cooktops prior to ordering, as well as going to the BSH Showroom. Don't you think that either the dealer or the manufacturer should take a little responsibility for not having informed me about that there's a new Thermador coming out? Apparently, the new Therm was already available for ordering when I placed the order for my Gagg and other kitchen appliances.

Anyway, I don't expect the dealer to "eat" the penalty, but I doubt it is $1000. (Anyone have an idea how much this type of penalty usually is?)
Live_wire_oak ~ you've offered me great advice on other threads before. DO YOU THINK THE FOLLOWING IS REASONABLE? I will agree to an even exchange of the Gagg for the slightly cheaper new Therm. So the dealer would get to keep the difference in cost btn the 2 units. However, they want an extra $500 ON TOP of that! I'd like to ask them to either eliminate the extra $500 penalty or allow me to use it as store credit. Or do you think BSH would cut me a little break since we just purchased $30,000 worth of Gagg & Thermador items? And since I only want to exchange, not return it outright? (I don't want to be unreasonable, and truthfully this is my first purchase of major appliances, but even the BSH Showroom person thought the dealer was being unfair!)

Personally, I think restocking fees are a scam whether imposed by the dealer, distributor or manufacter just as I feel that credit card late fees and overdraft fees are a scam as well. Nonetheless they do exist.

If you're intent on exchanging the cooktop then you're obviously within your rights to negotiate the best deal you can particularly since you did a lot of business with this dealer.

On the other hand, think long and hard about whether you really need the new features. Many of us have DWs with many cycles and features that we never use and many people buy ovens with fancy programs that they also never use. Also, a brand new model with lots of electronics may well have problems. Good luck with your decision.

"I think my situation is a little different, no? "

Of course you do , it's YOU !

In the broad scheme of things your situation is not different or special , sorry.

"Don't you think that either the dealer or the manufacturer should take a little responsibility for not having informed me about that there's a new Thermador coming out?"

Manuf. - absolutely not, they market their stuff on a national and global basis, being sure everyone individually including you is up to date on the newest stuff is absurd.

The dealer? - Perhaps they are culpable. Depends on whether T'dor announced the stuff was available at the time you bought. Also, every dealer doesn't get the info at the same time, and every employee doesn't get said info or training at time info hits the dealer. Also, app. co.'s are notorious for announcing a product and then not being able to actually deliver it in their stated timeframe.

"Apparently, the new Therm was already available for ordering when I placed the order for my Gagg and other kitchen appliances. " - If this is actually the case then of course they are schmucks, but see below.

What if they'd told you bout it, you'd ordered it , and you want to cook now but a real functioning unit can't be installed at your place until xmas...........next year. Would you be a happy camper?

"Anyone have an idea how much this type of penalty usually is?) "

Yes, they can range from 0 to 40% and are part of dealer agreements. Doesn't really matter what we think, if it's reasonable, ect..... It's a contract.

"do you think BSH would cut me a little break since we just purchased $30,000 worth of Gagg & Thermador items?"

Why would they? They are a huge multinational and all of those divisions are run separately with different bosses, goals , and adgendas. $30k is a lot of $$$ to you but it doesn't even show up as a blip on BSH's balance sheet. Now, $30k is a nice sale for your dealer and in particular your salesman, but BSH's Gaggenau man really hates the fact that you want a T;dor top now instead of his and is prob. miffed you got the Freedoms instead of his shiny stainless interior fridges. He'd actually prefer that his T'dor colleague goes out of business. His bosses in Calif., and Germany would not be happy with this though. No different than getting into a discussion with GM and the Buick salesman about the Cadillac you also bought from the same corp. dealer because the new Buick has a more powerful engine this month. Next qtr. Caddy will roll out a better engine than that Buick and you can bet Gaggenau will get the new wiz bang features on their top real soon.

Charging you the restocking fee + additional $$$ is outrageous if it is punative, and I suspect we don't have all the correct info. Even the most unskilled number counter can figure you'd just return the top...pay the restock fee and then go buy the cheaper top somewhere else............all while badmouthing the dealer. But.......

I suspect what is happening is this: Top cost 4000, restock is 1000 due immediately to BSH. The "xtra" 500 bucks is the difference between the 12.5% they knocked off the fee and the actual dollars owed back to BSH. A dealer cannot eat 500 unless they have way overcharged you on the other stuff, and you'd feel real good about that if you knew , right????

Here's what's fair:

You pay (or are credited) the difference between what the total (in real dollars) of the restock fee and the Tdor top is less the orig cost of the Gaggi top. The only thing you need to verify and will be somewhat difficult is what the restock fee really is.

All the rest is simply he said she said and nothing anyone can go back and redo. It'd be up to you to decide if you are getting good value for the additional expense.

Hi antss, don't sound so angry with me! Perhaps you misunderstand my agony... I'm just trying to figure out what's the right thing to do with the help of all you knowledgeable people from this wonderful & supportive forum. Not trying to take advantage of the dealer or anyone else!

- By "I think my situation is a little different", I meant that I didn't just change my mind arbitrarily on this item. I asked the dealer AND the BSH showroom which was the most powerful unit available and had true timers, and Gagg was it.

- "Manuf. - absolutely not, they market their stuff on a national and global basis, being sure everyone individually including you is up to date on the newest stuff is absurd." I didn't mean that BSH should inform all individuals are updated. Of course not! But I actually made the drive to the BSH Showroom too look at the Thermador and Gaggenau appliances in person and find out the latest info. It was only a few weeks before the new cooktop came out, so I do feel miffed that no one told me.

- "What if they'd told you bout it, you'd ordered it , and you want to cook now but a real functioning unit can't be installed at your place until xmas...........next year. Would you be a happy camper?" Of course, if that were the case, I would not have ordered the new one. And I would be happy w/ my Gagg. Because that's the best one available to me AT THE TIME I ORDERED IT!

- "Yes, they can range from 0 to 40% and are part of dealer agreements. Doesn't really matter what we think, if it's reasonable, ect..... It's a contract." Nothing was stated on the invoice about the restocking fee...

- "Why would they? They are a huge multinational and all of those divisions are run separately with different bosses, goals , and adgendas. $30k is a lot of $$$ to you but it doesn't even show up as a blip on BSH's balance sheet." On the other hand, in this economy, the purchase of high-end appliances is surely down. Customer service becomes way more important to most buyers, especially when paying this kind of extra money for things that typically cost less in other brands. A prime example is Miele, whose top-notch service has been told to me by many different peopl certainly e. So if BSH has a policy to do what it can to try and keep this customer happy, then the future referrals would be worthwhile for them in the long run.

- "...BSH's Gaggenau man really hates the fact that you want a T;dor top now instead of his and is prob. miffed you got the Freedoms instead of his shiny stainless interior fridges..." That might be the case for Caddies and Buicks, but my understanding of BSH is that the Gagg man and the Thermador man are one and the same. So there should be no conflict in my exchange.

- "You pay (or are credited) the difference between what the total (in real dollars) of the restock fee and the Tdor top is less the orig cost of the Gaggi top." Yes, I agree with that. That's all I want. I just doubt that it's as much as this dealer is charging me. I don't expect him to be on the hook for any penalty that he may have to pay BSH for returning the Gagg.

- "The only thing you need to verify and will be somewhat difficult is what the restock fee really is." Yup! DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE RETURNING/EXCHANGING ITEMS AND KNOW WHAT TYPICAL RESTOCK FEES ARE? I will try to make some calls today and find out if possible.

There are restocking fees at all high end electronics stores, computer stores, etc. When they have to special order a product for a customer, then the customer doesn't want it, they either have to lose money by selling it as an "open box" item or return it to the manufacturer which costs them money.

I found the old Thermador induction in the mirrored finish for $1,500 last week. It was an open item. Someone probably ordered it, then wanted the new one. I doubt the dealer is eating the entire difference. There was probably a restocking fee involved.

Most restocking fees that I have seen are around 10 to 15%. I have gotten them waived when I purchased a more expensive item with my return. If you really want the Thermador, pay $500 more than what you paid for the Gagganeau and they will probably waive the fee.

25% is a typical restocking fee, and some high end like gaggenau can be 50%. i would go back and either get them to reduce the amount you paid, if it is the gaggenau ci491-610, as it is a discontinued model, or have them exchange it for the ci491-612, the new version of the gaggenau that has the frying sensor similar to the thermador, without the popups to clean around. (the sensor is under the glass)

BTW, the gaggenau you have has the 6 timers, and the 4.6 kw boost. personally, the twist knob is much more practical for cooking, as the touch pads on the thermador don't work if you have butter or flour on your hands, or just cold fingers.

good luck whatever you decide.

Keep the Gagg and learn all you can from it and save your money. In the end it will serve you well and oft times the newer glitz needs time to sort itself out and not always at your convenience.

eleeny- I'm not angry with you , a lot of folks think I'm angry or antagonistic and that is not what I'm trying to do. I'm just a blunt person.

"It was only a few weeks before the new cooktop came out, so I do feel miffed that no one told me. "

If in fact it was internally known it was comming in that frame you have a beef. What is their explanation? I suspect it was a soft rollout date like most of these are and you a simply caught in no mans land of scheduling. Can I actually have one of those tops to take home with me this Fri. if I ordered it today? Was this the case 2-3 weeks after you ordered the Gaggi?

I'll wager there is language posted somewhere in the store about the returns / restocking fee. I'm surprised it wasn't on the contract. If it wasn't disclosed then you should not be required to pay it. It's SOP for the industry though .

"A prime example is Miele" yes they are tops in my book, but even they stink some days , make a crappy unit from time to time, and piss folks off.

"So if BSH has a policy to do what it can to try and keep this customer happy".................

who said anything about this? BSH is nowhere near as CUstomer Centric as Miele, SubZero, or some of the niche manuf.

"That might be the case for Caddies and Buicks, but my understanding of BSH is that the Gagg man and the Thermador man are one and the same"

I tried to explain this in my last post. It's very, very similar to GM. Every division has it's own adgenda. Mr. CEO doesn't care if you buy a Gaggenau, or Bosch , or a Thermador cooktop so long as you are not getting a Wolf, or Miele one. BUT.........the Division head at Gaggenau AND ESPECIALLY the local rep. that services your dealer most certainly cares whether or not your fridge and cooktop say Gaggenau or Thermador on them and vice versa. Just like the Buick salesman cares if decide to go across the street and by a Caddy.

"So there should be no conflict in my exchange. " Not for the BSH board, stockholders and CEO, but the Gaggenau team's compensation will be directly linked to unit sales of Gaggenau, so getting the Thermador takes $$$ out of thier pocket from a canabalized sale. CEO's will be linked to overall #'s so as long as you stay in his family he's covered.

"pay $500 more than what you paid for the Gagganeau and they will probably waive the fee"

I think this is basically what is happening, Eleeny balked at the 25% which is understandable. Then the shell game began. They knocked the 12.5% off but that $$$ wasn't made up or additional dealer profit that could just be clipped it rep. real money on the dealer's books. So , they recoup it (try) somewhere else Eleeny may not find as objectionable.

This is all assuming that the dealer is forthright and a straight shooter, There seem to be no indications that he's not, but dirtbags still exsist.

FOODIE3 ~ You sound knowledgeable about the Gagg induction. The one I got is the CI491-612. However, the frying sensor information is not on the list of features or the latest care & use manual on the Gagg website! However, I had downloaded another care & use manual about a month ago, and it was on there.

I just called the Gagg 800 number and the rep was not very knowledgeable at all. All they could tell me is that the manual that had the fry sensor info on it is for a old Gagg. The newest manual and Gagg magazine say nothing about it.

Do you think they could have removed the fry sensor function from the Gagg? (Perhaps in order to sell more of the new Thermadors? To push that Sensor Dome feature?)

Do you have any info that confirms the frying sensor is indeed on the new CI491-612?

THANKS!

eleny - I've seen your posts on a number of threads and I think you need to step back, take a deep breath and relax. You've bought good stuff and you're going to have a great kitchen. A lot of extra features on DWs, ovens, and now probably induction cooktops are gimicks. The purpose of a cooktop is to put heat into pots and you'll cook great meals whether it has extra sensors or not and whether or not your disposal has a black or SS stopper. Just don't bump your head on the hood :-). Good luck!

You're right, weissman. This whole thing that was so fun and exciting previously has turned into lots of stress in this past week. I guess it may be because it's more money than I've ever spent in my life! I just don't want to make a mistake, as I will likely be living with these appliances for the next 20 years (God willing)!
But you're right, I do need to calm down a bit.

That said, I'd still appreciate foodie3's reply, and anyone else w/ any relevant info. Thanks!

eleeny,
the following is copied direclty from the gaggenau retail price book:

"CI491612* 36" Induction cooktop, 5 cooking zones,
Twist-Pad control, with booster function,
frying sensor, stainless steel frame
(Successor of CI491610)"

They have yet to post the US version of the manual, but all of their new electric cooktops have the frying sensor on them, (thats about 5 or 6 new cooktops this month).

I installed the CI491-602, that is the frameless version, and can confirm the frying sensor not only live, but in that manual.
what they are doing is setting up gaggenau as the higher style, higher warranty luxury product. short version-pick what you like the look of and controls, as you will be looking at and using it for a long time. (gaggenau is typically an 18-20 year life cycle.)

That's great to know, foodie. Thanks so much! (It's frustrating that I called both Gagg's 800 number and their showroom today, and the reps know nothing about the Frying Sensor! So if they don't know it and it's not on the website, how are people supposed to figure out the details of their product?!)

I take it that you like your Gagg?
I do like the look of it, but the Thermador's patterned surface probably won't show scratches as much as the Gagg's smooth all-blackness.

Hi foodie, did you have to buy special pans for the frying sensor? Is it only for frying or can it automatically adjust temp for other types of cooking as well?

there are accessory pans that they will offer, i tried a demeyer layer base pan, and it wasn't thick enough to work correctly. the settings are listed below, this is an all new function officially launching sometime this month,so full details are not out yet. i know all of this because i got an early release in our studio. (shhhh, i sell gaggenau, i'm only here to help)

Min- low temperature (for example omelets)
med low -medium temperature (thick pan fried foods such as meatballs, sausages and fish)
med plus- medium high temperature (thin pan fried foods meat or vegetable stir fry)
max -high temperature (for example potato pancakes, pan-fried potatoes, beefsteaks, rare)

foodie - did you verify the restocking fee for her. I'd do it but haven't been in the office for a week and a half and prob. not going until Fri.

Either foodie or antss ~ it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Elee

unfortunately i cant speak to that, as i don't know the region or details for that market.

I read some of these messages, then it became too long.

#1. Restocking fee. Well they spent the time, you committed to purchasing the product. They processed the order, and physically delivered, with their paid drivers, with insurance, etc, to your chosen location.

You sound like a very insecure, self centered person. I hope you are not called upon to deliver any kind of service to anyone.

#2. From my experience (a guy who cooks for 40 yrs), and my family's experience, and my daughter's experience (who is a Cordon Bleu Chef)...

A range isn't going to make your food taste better. You gal's may be falling for the same thing as guy's who fell for the best 'streo speaker'.

My daughter who is an executive chef, mainly uses one temp to bake everything, about 350, it's just the amount of time.

My advice is to get over your insecurity.

doug_gb ~ I generally appreciate all replies to my queries, but yours is extremely offensive and completely unnecessary on an otherwise supportive forum such as this. What is your purpose for writing such a rude response when you have nothing useful to offer?

Regarding the restocking fee, I have never stated that I didn't want to pay any penalty at all for exchanging the units. I still do not believe that there is anything wrong with asking this forum how much a reasonable or standard restocking fee is in this type of situation. Yes, the dealer did process the order and deliver it, as your said w/ insurance, etc., but wanting to charge over $1000 extra for "restocking" would seem excessive to most consumers. Rather than "raising hell" with them immediately, I took the time to ask more experienced people on this forum what they thought was reasonable and fair in this situation, because this is my first purchase of major appliances and I did not know what the typical policy is. I have been happy with my dealer in every other respect and they've certainly made a healthy profit from having all of my business. Since you do not know me at all, except for this post, I would say that someone who cares enough to do so is the exact opposite of self-centeredness.

I've never expected any appliance to make my "food taste better". My husband and I have waited years and finally saved up enough money for our new house and dream kitchen, so we certainly won't apologize for researching the pros and cons of the expensive appliances that we are purchasing. I've never professed to be a chef or even a cook with particular experience, so your statement about your family's cooking expertise is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether or not I might be "insecure". True, Mario Batali or Hubert Keller may be able to whip up the greatest meals on a hot stone, but that has nothing to do with most home cooks. I am simply a very busy mom who makes food for my family everyday. The Sensor Dome and CookSmart programmed functions on the new version of the Thermador are not meant for the executive chefs of the world, but are convenience features for the less capable cooks among us. My frustration, which has nothing to do with security, is that accurate and detailed information has not been made available by the manufacturer (BSH) about the Gaggenau and the new Thermador cooktops. I needed to find out if the new features that the salespeople were so excitedly touting are functions that will be truly useful to the average cook, or if they are gadgets that will be forgotten about after the first few weeks. So I posted on this forum to ask if anyone knows more info about these cooktops to help me make an informed decision. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if you did not like it or didn't know the answers, then you did not have to reply at all. Luckily, others have been far more helpful than you and I really appreciate their input in my situation.

Back to business...

Thanks so much, foodie3, for your invaluable info on the Gagg. You knew things about the new CI491-612 version of the cooktop that the BSH Showroom staff AND the Gaggenau 800 number people had no idea about! You must be a great salesperson! (Reminds me of that rare car salesman who knows every single spec of every car in the lot!)

Anyway, it's exactly what I needed to make my decision. We are keeping the Gagg, and HAPPILY! My hesitation before was that, since induction is all about technology, not unlike computers, I would much prefer to have a newly-designed unit rather than one that's a few years old. Until your post, I did not know that the Gagg had been re-designed as well. Even though the new Therm does have some features that I love, such as the extra-lg 13" element, the anti-overflow function that shuts off the burner when a spill is detected, and the patterned surface that should hide scratches better, it's probably not enough to warrant the cost and trouble of making the exchange. Besides, the Gagg has a 5-YR warranty vs. Thermador's only 1-YR.

Below is a press info that I just found online about the new Gagg.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Here is a link that might be useful: Press Info: Gaggenau Updates CI 491 Induction Cooktop w/ Exclusive Frying Sensor

eleeny,
Fantastic news, thank you for the update. if you have any other questions, please let me know, i am here to help. actually, I'm only here for the food, but that's another post.....

BTW, the induction is great on low for a chocolate fondue without a water bath. i mix in chipotle powder and espresso for a mexican coffee style.

The bottom line with all high end appliances is dealers typically don't order them until they're sold, they have to be trucked from the warehouse to you, and in general a return is a hassle all around, most notably because there's no way they can now sell that cooktop as "new" to another customer.

If it were you, would you pay full price for an appliance that came out of an open box and the dealer said "it was never installed, the customer just changed their mind?"

I'm not trying to pick on you, just explain the dealer's side of things.

They most likely will have to eat a fair chunk of change by trying to sell it as an open box unit or return it if BSH will even take back an opened box.

I'm really sorry you took my post as an insult.

I meant it to be a wake up call!

I'm sure you are a committed cook, mother, wife. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted such a long problem.

What I was getting at is that you will continue to be an excellent mother / wife with what ever range you have. You should not worry about small improvements - it's all about you and your caring - what you put into it.

Yes the heat output, and the regulation is important, but the rest is the cook! I'm sure you will do well.

Sorry to upset you. (I'm Dutch, and I don't have the best English.)

All I'm saying is that there are plenty of threads about appliance colors, backsplash shades, and other relatively "minor" issues on this forum... And I consider those questions to be perfectly legitimate for those in dilemma and for the helpful souls who kindly take the time to provide insight from their own experiences/expertise. That is the exact purpose of this forum! My post, although quite long and complicated, addressed 2 concrete questions for which I was unable to find answers elsewhere - what typical/reasonable restocking fees are, and details regarding the Gagg & Therm cooktops. Thankfully I was able to find help from others on this forum. However, for you to criticize someone as insecure and self-centered based on posting such a question is absolutely ridiculous, contrary to the spirit of this forum, and only meant to cause controversy. And your "advice" about the range not making me a better cook is way off topic. I think that, if you do not have a relevant answer to someone's legitimate question, then you should bar yourself from replying at all.