I have the 36" Sub-Zero fridge and I love it so far. As the posted above me stated I love the wide shelves. Like you I have 24" cabinets so I have the standard installation. I think it looks beautiful and I love how much space I have between the door and the island. It's not ever in the way!

I hear you plllog and breezy and you make a good point. Thanks for the pic RH -- your kitchen looks great and the fridge is a showpiece with your cabinets for sure.

I'm down to 3 options. Each has pros and cons. I have no idea what i want.

If any of you appliance gurus have comments on the relative merits of Miele vs SZ, please hold forth. There was a previous thread on this several years ago, which I've read.

gurl - your are right. I had forgotten those old Amana built ins were shallower than everyone else's.

Are you certain that your cabinets are only 24" deep and not 24 3/4 " or 25" WITH the doors/drawers ???

That would be the standard depth that most manuf. make them to. Think yours are custom so anything is possible there.

I'd have to double check , but I don't think Miele's fridge is going to be flush at a depth of 24" The applied panel will protrude at least 3/4" from the 24" - that's the unit's depth.

Same as all of the cousins built on that platform.

Re: miele vs. sz - choose the one that has the best interior configuration and adjustable to you. They are both great units backed by fine co.'s.

xedos -- Absolutely sure of measurements. I pulled the Viking specs to double check. Custom cabinets.Depth is 24". Current fridge is SS so it's not panel-to-panel flush. But flush for appearance.

Miele spec for the KF1911 shows box depth of 23-1/2" plus door + handle. It would be comparable to current fridge.

Both SZ show overall 36 x 84 x 23-7/8". Then it gets tricky because standard installation calls for 35-1/2" width and top view profile shows slight overlap. So unclear whether cabinet box would need a 1/4" strip on each side or whether the front covers the difference. Top view on install diagram seems to suggest that front frame covers. That calls for 24" d. Do you happen to know how this works?

For SZ to fit flush it would need 26-3/16" deep cabinet -- that's very clear and N/A. I could not have that.

With standard install, thickness of grill and doors plus handle stick out. I have flush inset cabinets so it's much more prominent than if I had overlay.

Excellent dealer has an installer capable of altering cabinets if necessary. That's extra, of course. Joy.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 15:51

My Miele columns were designated as flush integrated at 25".

I chose Miele instead of SZ because of size issues. I also really like the interior, and I hated the Thermador enough not to even consider it, though it's the same box and general arrangement.

Having had both, I don't think there's a functional difference, assuming Miele makes the one you're looking at. I think when I was shopping 5-6 years ago, their similar model was made by someone else (and I don't mean the BSH factory that someone recently told us was started by Miele and sold to Siemans). With Miele's name and service behind it, though, and probably some of their own guts, I don't know that it would matter either way.

I'm as happy with the Miele as I would have been with SZ.

Even having it down to the three options is good. You may not have a clear winner until the day you have to order it.

Rococogurl--check the width as well. My SZ 36" FD is built in flush integrated and we needed more than 36" width to enable the doors to open.

For my SZ integrated 36" the opening is 36". My end panels are 25".

I've can definitely speak to the tolerances because currently it's not sitting flush because my right end panel is slightly bent in. So it's slightly less than 36" and it's doesn't fit in all the way flush. At 36" w and 25"d, it would.

(The rep from the cabinet co and the KD are coming over tomorrow night to determine who will eat the panel.)

If I were to go with SZ, the only possible installation I can do is a Standard Installation with a built in refrigerator. I have a question about the width because the specs for that installation are contradictory.

As I said to xedos in my post at 12:32. Integrated is not an option and I am not going with panels. I'm going with SS.

Plllog, the specs evidently have changed. No surprise. Miele seems to change everything yearly.

gurl - I know the viking is 24" deep - but I was asking about the possibility of your cabinets ( ref. opening) being deeper. They could be deeper than the fridge without issue.

I think fully integrated models shouldn't be ruled out. Just about all of them offer stainless steel panels from the manufs. and you could have stainless doors made up even if they didn't.

I wouldn't cross them off if they otherwise work.

The miele's carcass depth is 24" out in the real world - I don't care what their drawing shows. Same for the T'dor , Gaggenau and Bosch cousins. At minimum a door is 3/4" deep and as a practical matter it's 1". So you need 25" of depth for a flush face plane.

Update:

xedos-- cabinet depth is 24" -- verified and reverified.

2 appliance stores today. Have seen all possibilities.

I've eliminated the FD fridges. Doors are too fussy.

Could go with Miele single door/bottom freezer or the same SZ. Doors will be about 3 inches longer than the current door. No floor models available (they were just replaced).

Either will install the same -- they have frames that make the doors sit proud of the cabinet front. I had a conversation with the Miele install group, xedos, they claim that carcass is 23-1/2" per diagram but the frame pushes things forward and finishes the sides. Ditto for SZ.

Miele is a straight install. No cabinet alteration but electrical outlet must be relocated in back.

SZ requires 1/4" strips each side inside the cabinet to center it. No outlet relocation.

Question mark is the water line but I understand they replace that.

Both have frames that cover the sides for a clean finish.

SZ has a prominent grill on top; Miele does not.

SZ appears to have incandescent lighting, top only.
Miele has LED side lighting.

Both have 2 crisper drawers; different configuration.

Both can hold 1/2 gallon cartons on the door.

SZ has 1 extra door shelf & slightly larger ice cube tray
.
Both require installation fee which varies according to dealer. Both have free delivery and haul away of old machine.

Both give extra year of warranty with certified install.

Both are crazy expensive. SZ is $700 more. Premium could be attributed to additional shelf and choice of handles and then, down the line, the slightly more accessible service should it be required. Miele evidently does not sell as many refrigerators in this area.

IMO: Gala apples vs Ginger Golds. Either would be good. No idea how I will choose.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 21:45

Tough choices, but at least you've eliminated the FDs. That's progress. Ginger Gold is my new favorite apple, and I live here in apple country. :)

I know you said you ruled out integrated SZ, but just for those who run across this thread (or in case you decide to re-consider) they do offer stainless doors and it appears from the dimensions you've posted, they'd fit. They look very much like the Miele. The SZ just has one crisper drawer and two freezer drawers. I was told when I purchased that the integrated SZ was the only one that met new refridgerator requirements and that had LED lighting (of the two SZ models). I didn't see the Miele until we'd already settled on the SZ. I would have given that more consideration if we'd seen it earlier in the process.

(a pic with lots of things to be fixed still)

rococogurl, I have nothing to offer but sympathy and admiration for your acceptance that this is indeed a first world problem. I am in your boat, with a beautiful refrigerator fit it into a very specific space -- now in need of its sixth repair after 14 months of ownership. (So all I can advise is that you never, under any circumstance, buy an Electrolux EI23BC35K.). I would probably spend the money and do the repair, all the while keeping a constant check of inventory on your chosen replacement fridge. When my mother's refrigerator died in the dead of winter, she calmly put everything in ice chests and set them on the back porch. "Better the winter, I guess, than the summer," she said. Good luck to you.

Also, on the subject of purchasing luxury items, let me add this: when I turned 40 (very unhappily) my wonderful dh went out and bought me a Jaguar XJ. It was an utterly frivolous purchase, and neither of us had ever done such a thing, or driven anything more luxurious than a Volvo. But it was just something I had always wanted, foolishly I admit, and so we did this one crazy thing. We knew they were money pits. And sure enough, the first day I backed it out of the garage, the rear view mirror fell off and hit me in the head. I burst into tears. I just knew it was a harbinger of bad things to come. Things I deserved. But you know what? I drove that car for 150k miles over 10 years, and other than one dealer recall, that was the last repair it ever needed. So you just never know. Most of the time, luxury purchases do pan out and are worth it. So don't beat yourself up over the refrigerator. You never know, you might fix that fan and that might be the end of it. It could be a little bit like my rearview mirror. Fingers crossed.

In the end, outage resistance was the tipping point.

Miele tech support said due to their firmware, power outages were not a problem unless the unit was without power for more than 4 days. Then the freezer needs to be put into some type of superdrive.

SZ said that even as few as 3 outages a year (common here) would be a "problem" and would weaken the controller board and eventually cause it to fail. And if they happened frequently enough it might affect the warranty as that would not be "normal," though it's normal where I live.

She was very candid about the unit not being very outage resistant, which I appreciate. No way I would go with that one.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Wed, Sep 3, 14 at 16:03

That's pathetic for a product as expensive as SZ.

Before I read your last post in which you'd made up your mind, I was going to vote for the Miele. The reason? When you said, "Subzero has a prominent grill on top; Miele does not." Nuff said. I never liked that big SZ grill.

I was fascinated by your logical, informed, methodical consensus-taking process. Keep us posted on delivery and installation, and provide pics of course.

This has been an interesting and hugely helpful discussion. Thanks to all! Am I right that neither the SZ nor the Miele has gallon storage in the door? I forgot to look specifically when I was at the appliance store today (though it was on my list. Sigh). Without split shelves in the box, it seems like raising the whole bottom shelf to fit a gallon of milk would make the remaining shelves very shallow. I know that the Liebherr will fit gallons in the door, and they're very appealing to the eye, but the repair information makes me nervous.

AvatarWalt, I have a Miele column, which is fairly similar to the bottom freezer unit Rococogurl is looking at. Two of the things I was looking for in it were no gallon door shelves and no split shelves in the box. If those are features you like, there are plenty of fridges that have them! But there's plenty of space for a main shelf that will take tall bottles (of which I have many more than would fit in the door anyway) and still have enough height for all the other things. Between the lighting and the glass shelves you can always see into the back. :)

Avatar -- Miele and SZ only store half-gallon containers on the door. Liebherr holds gallons but the shelf space is very much reduced.

I was warned off them by one of the two repair techs who have done work for me on the current fridge. I have no idea what's happened as I had such a good experience with mine.

GE Monogram has split shelves. The model I saw had SZ flange handles ca 1995 -- looked dated but there should be options. If I recall Breezygirl has a GE -- perhaps she can opine.

This has been a difficult decision. Part of that is simple resource allocation even in first world terms. The other is the entire issue of retrofitting a built-in refrigerator.

The installer recommended by my dealer called last night. We went over the spec sheet together and discussed what I had vs what I would be getting and what was needed etc.

Anyone shopping for a refrigerator today would be very well advised to go slowly. I would never order cabinets before deciding 100% on the refrigerator because that single decision influences cabinet depth and then it's kitchen dominos.

Also, costs of all the built in refrigerators. They appear to have increased at least 30% since 2011 based on prices in a a Consumer's Report fridge comparison from that time.

But I couldn't find 30 percent added value and there are odd things such as a 10K SZ with incandescent lighting. What happens in 5 years when you cannot buy a replacement bulb for that old technology? Water filters that cost $50-$80 to replace annually. There's a slot in the SZ for promotional/use material they provide that would be impossible to keep clean. Miele offers no door handle options.

In some area there are too many options; in others two few. There are some very common sense end user issues that seem to be ignored by manufacturers.

Which fridge is that in the picture? Adjustable height door shelves is a feature from the 1950's, at the latest! I get that having the staggered shelves gives more different heights, but it also cuts done on storage space! That kind of thing may be where the money goes.

Re the price increase, some of it may be demand adjustments. Or it might be increases in parts prices. A lot of weird stuff that happened during the Great Recession is just beginning to show up at the consumer level.

The price point, look and layout of the Liebherr are all very appealing, but it's comments like that of your repair tech, rococogurl, that give me pause. Can I ask, plllog, why you prefer no gallons in the door and no split shelves? Maybe we just don't tend to have many tall items in our fridge. Our kitchen is relatively narrow, so we do need to find something that's shallow and mounts flush, so this discussion has been great.

As for options, rococogurl, I've always just had whatever was in the kitchen of the place I rented or bought. Now that I'm actually picking things out, I'm astounded--and a bit alarmed!--at all of the things to consider. Off to learn about baffles vs. mesh range hood filters now. Wish me luck!

I don't have a GE. My built-in is a KA. I choose it because I got an awesome deal on ebay.

Such a humble brag, breezy. So jealous.

I didn't mean to sound like I was bragging. :-/

I hadn't budgeted for a BI, but after I discovered a measuring error I made (acting as GC and home designer at that point) after sheetrock went in, my island-fridge aisle was much smaller than I had intended. The full-size fridge idea was out, and once I started looking at the price of CD units I decided to look for a BI deal. It was still much more money than I ever thought I'd pay for a fridge.

Your situation makes me cross my fingers even harder that my fridge is long lasting. I do not want to contemplate a replacement.

LOL! There's time, Rococogurl. You might get an awesome bargain, too!

Avatar, I didn't want a gallon in door shelf because I don't have gallon jugs. Where you have a gallon in the door, that space is chomped out of the box side shelf. That's all. I don't like split shelves because they eat up space. (They also let gunk spill right into the middle of below.) Same reason why I like extra wide cabinet drawers. Get the hardware that will support it and the 60" wide drawers, is my motto. :) (My largest are 48" because that's all the room I had.) I promise you I wasn't dissing the Liebherr or your desire for gallon door storage and split shelves. Just not for me. Same as my non-gallon jug holding door is not for you. It's just that I'm pretty passionate about refrigerator layout and utility, and, because I had so much difficulty finding something that would work well, I grew to truly hate the ones that are laid out wrong for my household. Hate. Vehemently. But in a well if you like it, be my guest and enjoy, kind of way.

Your question was about how it can hold everything with the tall bottles in the box (and this is info that RG might use). It can. I have the bottom shelf jam jar high, the second shelf coffee can high, and the top shelf just low enough to stack two tubs of cottage cheese. The space between the top and second shelf is way taller than tall bottles. In the bottom freezer version, it would lose a few inches, but still be plenty tall enough. (All the shelves adjust easily--this is just my arrangement.) In that big open space, besides a perpetual bottle of sparkling blueberry juice for little girls, and home infused vodkas for big girls, and the orange juice and milk, and a bottle of wine, there is currently a four quart food service container half full (now) of gazpacho, and a bunch of other stuff. Sometimes there will be a stack of boxes or bags of salad, but when I need the room, I just put them on top of the bottles. :) They like it up there, and don't get in the way. :)

I purchased the fridge yesterday, plllog and most definitely did not get a bargain.

Hopefully, this refrigerator will work properly, be reliable and won't become some new nightmare so I will be able to forget about fixing or replacing all the sh*t in this house.

I know more about expensive refrigerators than I ever thought I would and it's not a very positive picture.

RG, What did you purchase? The discussion here has been very helpful, especially your pros and cons of SZ, Miele and Bosch. We lurkers learn so much from the experiences and advice of others.

Your thought process and experiences (and that of others) are exactly what I need to help me decide on an integrated fridge/freezer.

Thanks!

LovesWindows - I purchased the Miele refrigerator with bottom freezer. The deciding issue was that Miele is power-outage resistant and SZ is not.

Otherwise, there isn't anything I was able to identify that made either one a better choice for my space, nor did I identify anything that justifies the 10% higher price for SZ.

The GE offered a lot of features though I didn't price it because GE is selling their appliance division and I've learned through bitter experience that future service turns out to be 50% of the value.

I did not go into this search with any preconceived notions about what to buy. I do have other major Miele appliances and have been very happy with them so I do admit I trust their quality. However our DD has both Miele and SZ fridges with 0 issues.

I spent a lot of time online but the real info was in the appliance store visits. I went to two and saw all the brands that would fit my space. My decisions were based on my assessment of build quality & features. I ruled out french door refrigerators in part due what clearly would be door issues while they were even more expensive than single-door models.

Having a successfully installed integrated refrigerator is a question of understanding what the expectations are for "integrated" since there definitely are variations for that type of installation.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that doubles the complexity of the basic decision about which refrigerator to buy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele 36 bottom freezer

Congratulations! May your new friend be an angel of chillery and embrace you with comfort in every cool exhalation.

RG - I've always heard that the door hinges on the Miele fridges are awesome. (only my fellow appliances geeks on this forum would care about a factoid like that LOL.)

Please post pics - and for fun, if you can, even post pics during delivery and installation. If that's a bit much, then at least a pic after installation and loaded with groceries. TIA!

My last name isn't Kardashian, shannon, so I cannot promise wall-to-wall coverage. But I will do my best.

Meanwhile, I can provide a showroom photo of the mighty Miele hinges for your enjoyment.

May you and your new Miele live a happy, uneventful life.

Thanks plllog and breezy, very sweet. Fingers crossed.

Rococogurl,

Will you keep us posted? I want a 36 inch integrated refrigerator/freezer and will need to decide fairly soon. The choices are expensive, but not extensive.

I've never had a built in fridge before, so I have to get advice from others on what factors to consider.

Thanks!

loveswindows- will do.

Meanwhile, first decision :

true integrated (fridge/freezer flush with adjacent cabinets with panels or stainless -only handle protrudes

built in with standard installation, meaning door thickness and handle will protrude. Stainless or cabinet panels.

integrated look - a stand aline fridge installed to look as integrated as possible. Usually no cabinet panels available,

Once the decision about specific way fridge should look, there are brands that have various options and cabinet depth specifications in addition to way cabinet panels go on the various units.

Then door style considering placement, hinge clearances, etc.

then as xedos suggesed, interior configuration.

In the 2 stores I was in SZ, Miele, Thermador, Liebherr, Ge and Bosch all make 36" fridges that are built in and integrated capable. Fridge cabinet depths vary from 24" to nearly 27" and there are width variations as well. Not sure about Gaggenau.

You may know all this already but thats how I would go about it. Then rob a bank. The least expensive options should be Bosch and Liebherr but then its a matter of degrees vs build quality. SZ was most expensive across the board though Gaggenau may be a rival for that honor.

This may be the wrong thread for this question, but it does relate to picking an integrated/integrated-look fridge. I've been trying to suss out the "right one" among Liebherr and Miele and Thermador -- SZ's standard install still sticks out too much, and the upper grille panel on the GE Monogram not only sticks out but it has such a huge gap that you can see all the mechanicals behind it in a side view, i.e. from our dining room. I still need to hunt down some Bosch examples.

Anyway , on my last couple of visits to the appliance store, the Thermador french-door, which I like, has had quite a bit of condensation, like droplet size in addition to mist, on the lower half of the flapper and on the cabinet where the doors meet at the bottom. Is this something that should give me pause?

walt, there are very happy Thermador owners here and I respect that.

This thread started out as a french door maybe situation as that style fridge would have been practical. But I could not find one with stable doors. Every time I closed one side, the other side jumped. I could not see a trouble free appliance with those doors. Granted, I may be overreacting given my history.

i also felt that Thermador and Liebherr were about the same build quality without the same price point.

I have condensation in my current fridge due to the ripped gasket. That seems to be causing the black mold.

The new fridge went in this morning. It's sturdy, quiet and seems to have more space than the old one. The installer was very good and professional. It was necessary to remove the baseboard on each side to adjust for the frame to fit. There are a few nicks as a result but I have cabinet touch up.

The only bobble was that a cover piece on top of the freezer frame did not install well. The dealer is ordering a new piece and sending someone to put it on properly. The entire process too about 4 hours today. I cannot imagine how anyone could DIY this. Installation was expensive but it's hard to tell anything happened here.

After all the teeth gnashing about it not fitting flush, it's difficult to tell it's not flush. It's a standard install with a semi-standard look.

So far, this appears to be a much better higher quality version of the same fridge style. It would be hard not to like it.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to getting me through this saga. A special shout out to xedos, plllog and breezygirl. I needed the push to replace, then to go with the single door and not worry about clearance. Turns out, the door is longer but it swings back farther so there's better clearance than before. Funny how what you worry about never happens and what you cannot imagine (bottom of the frame) does.

Miele:

Old Viking:

Miele Door & Hinges as requested

Oh, that's splendid! May you be renewed.

Wishing you many years of use!!!!

Gorgeous! I have fridge envy. I like how the Miele doesn't show a grill on top the way your old Viking did.

I had heard that the Miele fridge hinges were awesome, and indeed, they are.

Glad you got it sorted and are happy.

If that miele lasts you 20 yrs, the cost won't seem so bad them. Like Lizzie's Jag.

Re:size. I think your designer sold you down the river years ago when designing for that Viking. If they had left you 25" to the door faces you would have had more choices today. "Standard" built in dims are generally 36" wide x 25" x 84" tall.

Miele's water filters are going to cost you some steak money too.

I hope so, xedos. This was definitely a first-world issue, no question, but ouch.

We had many issues with the cabinet designer. But back in 2003 when the kitchen was planned there were basically 2 high end built in options -- SZ and Viking. Also Monogram. My cabinet dimensions were standard for both at the time.

Cannot fault the fit on this really. Instructions said a 25" cabinet would allow it to fit flush. But having seen the design of the frame, which is about 36-1/4 or so to cover the cut out, I don't see how that would work.What's interesting is that the Miele door is much slimmer than the SZ. It doesn't protrude as much. And having the grill hidden on the bottom makes a difference in the look -- at least for me. It's very neat.

I spoke to the dealer about the water filter. When the time comes, I spend $60 on a bypass. End of story. We have a very good water filter on our well pump so it's not needed on the fridge.

That can't be right about the bypass price... I paid $10 for my GE bypass and I thought that was a ripoff (GE is notorious for overpriced parts). I only did it because the filters were a ridiculous $50 each. I know Miele parts are expensive, but there's no way they are charging $60 for a little piece of plastic.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Fri, Sep 19, 14 at 13:22

It's actually $62 hv. I've linked it. But it's a one-time shot.

The HEPA filter for their vacuum is $50 and that's yearly.

If anyone is buying a new appliance from Miele, call them when you register it. They gave me a coupon code for 10% discount on any products ordered online from them -- basically forever.

I'll strike on Cyber Monday in December hoping to do even better.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele bypass filter

Oops! Never mind

I have an LG French door 2 GE Profiles, 1 Kenmore Elite French door. All have had some issues. But have been very dependable. All going on 7 years. I have a service contract on all appliances, that include all circuit boards. The LG had the circuit board fail, cost part only 822.00 bucks. If you have high end appliances or rental property get a service contract that includes the circuit boards

RococoGurl- I was directed to this thread as we are leaning toward the Miele over the SZ. Are there any material updates since your last post in '14? Would appreciate any insights!

I sold my house so I cannot, unfortunately, give a long term assessment of the Miele. I went with Miele due to the stability of the firmware during power outages and the superior lighting. It also had a price advantage at the time. In my house, over the years when I had issues and replaced with Miele there was a significant improvement. I dont feel you can go wrong with either choice anf, for me, the decision came down to technicalities, really. Good luck!