Are there good, reliable induction ranges with knobs and minimal electronics?

Induction by definition is all electronics.

KISS principle would imply gas pro-style here.

Electric wall ovens all have computer boards.

Redundant control panels by buying two single wall ovens means it is highly unlikely you will be without both electric wall ovens.

JD Power gave its its highest rating in the ovens/cooktop/rangetop to Wolf. Also scoring very high is Electrolux. Gaggenau is very good but JD did not get sample large enough to rate. Those brands would be the top ones endorsed here.

Kenmore Elite and Whirlpool Gold scored in the second rung in the ovens/cooktop/rangetop category.

JD Power gives its highest dishwasher rating to Miele with Bosch a close second. KithenAid and Kenmore Elite are in the second rung. With the exception of Kenmore Elite, those are the brands endorsed here. Some people like Asko dishwashers. Asko was rated very low in JD Powers survey.

k.i.s.s. is a wonderful acronym, and a wonderful concept too, but i feel it's BEST when you apply it to the latest "promoted" micro feature of any one manufacturer where the marketeers may have gone wild trying to distinguish their products and make themselves into innovative thinkers.

Extending the KISs principle too far shows one is unclear on the concept, lacking common sense, and vulnerable to mistakes that will arise caused by the one big overriding principle. Keep your own buying process simple.

--

I'd like to see where ikeafans people have truly been negative about ikea appliances. I'm not sure that there Is any strong warning against ikea appliances. I would surmise that some ikeafan people have chosen to diss this aspect of ikea, and i could project reasons why, but I've not seen evidence to back this stance.

--

Thanks, deeageaux.

Sadly, gas appliances aren't available in my situation, which is unfortunate because, as you said, those are the appliances least reliant on electronic bells and whistles.

I guess what I need is "the next best." If I can't go gas and I have to go electric, what electric appliances keep the nice-but-unnecessary extras to a minimum. A good, sturdy kitchen filled with stainless steel is the goal.

Any thoughts on the Frigidaire Professional Induction Hybrid Cooktop (FPCC3085KS), which is a Consumer Reports "Best Buy" and has those knobs I tend to prefer (I know I'm likely in the minority on this one)? How about the Kenmore Pro 4100 (30" Single Electric Wall Oven) or 4200 (30" Double Double Electric Wall Oven)?

That's a great point, davidro1. (I'm assuming you weren't saying *I* was lacking common sense.)

Many features and new modern features are wonderful. It's the "Not only that, our ovens will also pack your kids' lunches and send them off to school!" extras of which I'm leery and wish to avoid. And to me, the way to do that is to find appliances that keep such extras to a minimum. Easier said than done, of course, especially when you want a quality appliance (minimal features usually means cheap).

Regarding Ikea, hey, I would love it if Ikea appliances actually were a viable alternative. Their prices are nice, and they do seem to keep things simple (by comparison, if nothing else). The reason I dismiss them is the majority opinion at Ikeafans -- a group that loves all things Ikea -- seems to be it's wise to buy everything except appliances from Ikea. It's not scientific and concrete by any measure, but to me it's telling when Ikea's own diehard fans are leery to purchase their appliances.

But, again, if they are a viable alternative I would love it. There are just very few reviews out there about their appliances, and that complicates things even more.

Hybrid sucks. Don't do it. You'll only use your induction hobs and your other ones will stay shiny clean unless you HAVE to use them for a holiday and then they'll get burned on nasty crud.

If you want to spend MORE for fewer features, I installed an induction cooktop that didn't do anything except go off and on. No child locks, no timers, no "overflow protection", but a lot of power. (Windcrest. They still in business?)

I like knobs too but for a non-gas cooktop, just embrace the flatness. (Those knobs are just attached to electronics anyway. They're actually one MORE thing to break!)

Oh, by the way,

HYBRID BAD!!!! This is not a real "best buy". It's getting half a cooktop.

Thanks for the input, fori!

That's a different take on hybrids. My thought process was the "half and half" wouldn't be so bad -- the two induction hobs would be all I'd need on most days, and on days where I needed more I would put the less important dishes on the electric hobs (which I'm used to doing now anyway, since I have all electric).

I guess your point (beyond hybrids sucking, haha!) is Consumer Reports wasn't comparing apples to apples. The hybrid cost less, and therefore received a "Best Buy", BECAUSE it was only half induction. That's what you're saying, right? Makes sense.

I've never heard of Windcrest. Are they readily available? How much did yours cost (if you don't mind my asking)?

Hybrid would drive me crazy...I'd always want the advantage of induction and wouldn't use the other side unless forced, then I'd resent it. Plus, food would burn on that side, it would get dangerously hot...but not on the lovely induction side.

I looked into induction extensively, until I figured out most units offered only 2, or many, just 1 large burner, and I needed more. Without natural gas available to us, we installed a small propane tank and have a gas rangetop.

I much prefer knobs, too, but as Fori mentioned, they're connected to electronics, so you're not getting away from the something-to-go-wrong issue.

I have my 4th oven in 3 years. When choosing the 4th, I REALLY wanted to get a basic oven that worked wonderfully and of great quality, and hopefully, with a reasonable price tag to go with. No such thing. Simpler or cheaper means cheaper in the worst sense of the word. I went with Wolf, a company who is using technology they've used successfully for years, and offers appliances that they test, individually, throughout the build process and before each leaves their factory. That doesn't guarantee 'perfect' or never a problem, but it's better than those manufacturers who design on the fly and have to correct big problems with each new year's offerings.

Electrolux, after a bad 2009 model year, seems to be doing very well now, and even a Wolf engineer recommended it to me as a 2nd choice. But I found my Wolf on clearance and that made the decision. I have a double E series, but like a hybrid cooktop, both ovens aren't featured the same, and it's a little aggravating at times. I would love to have 2 singles.

Hey, rhome410. Thanks for the feedback!

I'm interested in your installation of a propane tank so you could get a gas cooktop. How complicated/expensive is that to do? Since I'm not sure a hybrid or a 1-2 induction units would bother me TOO much, a hybrid or 100% induction cooktop seems like the simplest option for me. But, a propane tank sounds promising. Would you mind sharing your experience with it?

With two votes now on the "knobs can go wrong, too" topic, it sounds like if I go for knobs it'll only be for aesthetics. I do prefer the look. But I prefer more a good product, so I'll probably let my knob preference slide.

Thanks for the oven input. I've obviously heard great things about Wolf, but I just can't imagine it being in my price range. When you say you found one on clearance, what kind of price are we talking about (if you don't mind my asking)?

GW seems to love their Electrolux ovens. It's definitely leading the pack right now for when it comes time to buy.

Well, if you want knobs, and want to pay more, you can get a Gaggenau oven. :) It has an electronic display (and internal operation), but you do choose the temperature and setting with knobs. And it's one of the best performing ovens available. What I like best about mine, is that for all the fanciness, the user has a lot of direct control. The oven isn't (or isn't obviously) controlled by algorithm. Instead, you set the heat source and temperature you want, and it accurately gives those to you, just like an old fashioned oven.

I did a lot of investigation of current ovens with knobs for a relative who can't put a Gaggenau in her space. I couldn't find one that really was "simple" and got good reviews for even heating.

You can also get a "knob" with a Gaggenau induction cooktop (if you want to pay). It's really a magnet, and controls the electronics, but if you don't like tap tap tapping the controls, it's very nice. And you do get all the "bell and whistle" type features. :) And it's fun (kind of like air hockey).

If you really want simple, and do go for the LP, there are some pretty simple ranges out there. You could even get a reconditioned old pilot light range. Electronic ignition is a lot safer, but as long as it doesn't violate your local code, you can go vintage.

Re dishwashers, you will conserve resources if you use a dishwasher. The new ones, especially the European or Euro-style ones, use less water and energy than hand washing, or so we're told. You also don't have to pre-rinse if you use the new detergent packs--just scrape off the solids. If you put the dishes in too clean, the new detergents will eat (etch) your dishes. Most people use the basic setting most of the time, so it makes sense to keep it simple by getting fewer "features", but it's still going to have electronics.

Re recommendations, there seem to be mixed reviews of Bosch DWs, possibly depending on the exact model. Also mixed, but leaning a little more favorably on Asko. By far and away the most favored DWs are Miele, and the most favored ones seem not to be the top of the line, but the mid ranked models. The best reviewed American style dishwasher (i.e., with heating element (optional to use or not)) is KitchenAid.

Thanks plllog!

The Gaggeanau ovens I've seen online look niiiiiice. Of course, I can tell by looking at them there is no way I can afford them! Haha. How much are we talking for a 30" single oven? $5k? More? Sigh.

I'm researching the propane option since that will open up many more cooktops for my search. I'm unsure of my local codes, though. I'll have to check.

Yeah, I've heard dishwashers save more water than washing by hand, too. Of course, knock on wood, I would have zero worry about my hands breaking down at some point. :)

I'll have to look into Miele dishwashers, but more than likely KitchenAid will be the best one that fits into my budget.

Thanks again.

I think if you want to save on a DW, you should look at the bottom end of a manufacturer's range. Usually the guts are the same (motors, pumps, spray arms) but the number of cycles differs as the price goes up.

I think (but I'm not sure any more) that Viking (or was it Wolf) makes an induction cooktop with knobs. Cooktek makes single-hop units with knobs, and multi-hob units designed for catering tables.

I watch Cooks' Country from time to time. Their wall ovens have knobs and I think are DCS/Fischer&Paykel ovens.

Yep, Cook's Country and America's Test Kitchen use DCS, which has knobs. DCS has the exact same 'guts' as Fisher and Paykel, which also has knobs on a contemporary face. F&P is about $1400 less for a double oven than the DCS...Don't know single prices.

My Wolf is also a double...I think it was about $4900 on clearance.

I can't remember how much it cost to install our propane tank. I'll have to ask DH if he does, or I'll have to look for paperwork. I think it's 120 gallons, so we've only had to refill it once...at about the 2 1/2 yr mark, I think.

(sigh) Yes, Gaggenau is expensive, and it shouldn't have to be top price to get simplest but for some reason it seems to have become that. Sometimes people get outrageously fantastic prices on Gaggenau ovens by looking for display models or changed mind about the remodel unit. From what I've heard, Gaggenau have been fairly generous with the warranty on a lot of these, giving full coverage (do call in advance if you find one).

I disagree with looking for the bottom of the line DW. When I was looking a couple of years ago, yes, the mechanicals, like pumps are often the same, but usually one or two notches better than the bottom, from a company that has a dozen or more models, has improved performance in the tub.

I found that middle of the road Bosch (500 series) had significant advantages (for us and IMO) over the lower levels. Stainless interior, quieter, and, mostly, an energy efficient/water efficient cycle that we use all the time. The higher end was a little quieter, but the jump wasn't that much and I knew the level of the 500 was quiet enough. It also had so many more cycles that I knew I'd never need, as I am definitely a 'pick a cycle that works and always use it' person.

Regarding the cooktop with propane: I would suggest checking to see if a selected model was specifically designed for propane. I don't know if there even are any. Kitchenaid certainly didn't have one and I have been displeased with the modification for propane. The problem is that the modern design with specific orifice size to control gas/air proportion gives limited control. Vintage models control gas and air separetly.

I don't actually know about propane installation either (being a 3rd owner), but I suspect that the installation would either be discounted or perhaps free. You are selecting a gas supplier who would like the business. If the tank is burried then I imagine the cost would be more.

Wolf, BlueStar, Capital, and Monogram are at least 4 who manufacture their units for the particular kind of gas. I was careful with that, because there can be a fairly big loss of power with a conversion.

We aren't allowed buried tanks in our area, so I'd be surprised to hear anyone still does that, but I really have no idea. Buying a tank doesn't guarantee that you'll buy that company's gas, since propane is not a utility offered by one company, like natural gas. Our choices were to rent or buy the tank, and it was a better value to buy.

I found our receipt for tank and set up:

120 gal tank: $400
Set up: $130 (all parts, no labor charge)

1st fill up: $250 (about 100 gallons @ $2.30 plus tax)

We had to dig the 18" deep trench from the house stub out (done by HVAC guy) to the tank so they could connect.

Far as the DW goes, I've heard lots of good things about the KA.
If you are on a tight budget, the latest HD ad has nearly a whole Maytag kitchen for what a fridge ordinarily costs! Couldn't believe it when I saw it yesterday! Guess its a 4 of July promotion.
I bought a Whirlpool oven a couple of years ago and it has been great. It has a convection setting as well as the normal cooking setting. Makes pizza with a tender crust.
If you would like a link for more technical information, email me and I'll get it for you. It has been a great help for me.

For our recent kitchen remodel, we chose mid-line appliances with all the functions we needed but no bells/whistles we did not (i.e. same idea re: the fridge, no outside water/ice dispenser). For the cook top we went with a Bosch 5-burner 800 series 36" gas cook top. Simple, works great, and I believe there is a propane version. For the double wall ovens we chose a Kenmore Elite double convection model (made by Electrolux) It has also worked flawlessly (including the self-cleaning feature which we've used several times already) Both appliances are priced very reasonably (under $3500 for both if you take advantage of sales which Sears has at least twice a month)

Hope this helps.

We just got rejected for our propane permit, so I'd caution you to be very careful. The propane company told us where to place it but it turns out (months later) that it violates code. They neglected to file paperwork for ours, so we ditched them and got a second company. The second guy said nothing about the placement and filed papers for us. 2 months later, we got notified it is in the wrong place. I have laid out quite a bit already and our vintage stove is in place with cabs and counters installed. We had it converted to propane by a special vintage stove restorer. We don't know if we can salvage any of this, but it is a real pain, even if we can. It will cost us a bundle more and the outcome is not clear yet. I would not buy a gas appliance until you are absolutely sure.

We have a GE Profile wall oven with knobs. I prefer the look of it because the design is very retro modern. The knobs are sleek yet chunky. It is all stainless. We have used it for 3 months and really enjoy it. We got it on CL from an appliance dealer. It was an open box, but brand new. It had only a 30 day warranty from him, but for the price, we took a chance. We love the convection options but sometimes use the standard features. The racks are the pullout kinds, which are so helpful when you want to flip everything over and not burn your arm. It has saved our lives because we have no clue when we will have a working stove!

Our Bosch dw works like a dream. We had only inherited lesser dws from p.o.s so this was the first we bought. It is soooo quiet and our dishes come out clean (a major bonus after what we were used to, lol). It is energy efficient too. We got it at a scratch and dent sale because the kickplate on the floor model was dented, the silverware basket was missing and there was no manual. I got all those directly from Bosch for $70. The dw cost us $425 and is a top of the line model, so we feel we came out way ahead on that! With the new kickplate on, you would never guess it had been dented.

Our propane tank is buried and is code compliant. We have a 30" GE Profile wall oven and gas cooktop. We've had them for 10 years and haven't experienced any issues with using propane as a heat source.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

weedmeister: When you say look at the bottom end of a a manufacture's range, do you mean for higher end brands or all brands? The low end of a Bosch, for example, I have to imagine would be a different animal than the bottom end of a Whirlpool, right?

rhome410: I like the look of Fisher & Paykel a lot. Lowe's shows their double oven is $4,099 (for a 30") and $2,309 for a single. They seem to be thought pretty highly of here at GW. Are they a better bet than a knob-less Electrolux?

$4,900 for a Wolf double? From everything I've ever read, that's quite a steal!

plllog: I'm not sure what, if any, showrooms in my area sell Gaggeanau. I'll have to look, just to see if display models are an option.

rhome410: I've heard a lot of good things about the Bosch dishwashers. I'll have to take a hard look at their 500 series.

chase045: Good tip on making sure the cooktop models are made for propane. I'd imagine some are, but most aren't.

rhome410: Thank you for making the effort to find your propane receipt. That seems really reasonable. I'm not sure if I'll go that route or just go with induction, but it gives me something to think about.

powertoolpatriot: I've heard good things about KithenAide here on GW, too. I'll definitely give them a look.

Yeah, this July 4th weekend has all sorts of crazy deals. If you're in the market to buy, it's like being a kid in a candy store!

MCMespirit: Thanks for the tips! I haven't look at Bosch's cooktops, but I've looked at the Kenmore Elite (and Pro) ovens. CR seems to like them a good bit, and with the sales Sears has you can get them at really good prices. Glad to hear from someone who bought one and is pleased.

dianalo: Yikes, sorry to hear that! Hopefully it works out for you, but I appreciate the tip (which will come in handy should I decide to try the propane route over induction).

GE's website doesn't show any (unless I'm looking in the wrong place), so I didn't know wall ovens with knobs from them were an option. I'll have to shop around and see if I can find any.

That's an awesome deal on that Bosch DW.

maire_cate: Thanks for the feedback!

DH said that, for us, a tank of 125 gal or more needed a separate permit, but one the size of ours didn't require an extra permit or special inspection.

I'm not sure how I'd compare the knobbed F&P to the knobless Elux. I've never had an Elux, although I trust a lot of the opinions here. I had great baking performance with the F&P, but did have trouble with the knobs on the new model. (The board for them kind of 'floated' behind the front panel, so if they shifted, the knobs didn't always work right the first time, and I'd spin it and get nothing. It always worked after a try or two, so was a minor irritation rather than an actual operational problem. ) Hopefully, it was only a problem with the first ones that they may have improved by now.

The simplest no bells and whistles would be a fireplace with both a grate and a cauldron hook (and the chimney for your vent). Then, there's always classic ice boxes being sold on Ebay, but the daily ice delivery wagon is out of service now and you'd have to assume responsibility for the transportation yourself. The big farm sink is back in style for your dishwasher and you can always use the kids or the dog for your potscrubber cycle. I'm afraid no MW makes it into this scenario, so you'll have to live without. These are all low tech environmentally friendly solutions and would work great for no frills back to basic living.

Or you could go back to the 1950's style when many appliances became "standard" in American households. You can still get a simple electric coil range for around $300, or a gas one with a pilot light if you go that way. $200 buys you a mechanical DW that will clean your dishes much better and be much quieter than any 1950's model. They still sell simple top freezer models with manual defrost and no ice maker.

Simple no frills is readily available, if that's what you truly want. 99% of luxury appliances, and all of the ones you've discussed, don't fit anywhere near the no bells or whistles concept though. So I think you need to redefine your terms because we're talking two different universes here that are light years apart. Luxury products by their very definition have many many features. 99% of them are extraneous to the actual job of the appliance. So if you truly want appliances with just basic funtionality, they are out there. They won't cost thousands and have fancy nameplates though. That's an oxymoron. Pick your poision. :)

Viking induction has knobs for each burner. I prefer knobs...but the Viking has (to me) an odd looking surface with squares and circles delineating the hobs. (Went with older model Gagg.)

Caldera makes a very simple, sturdy, and good looking gas/LP cooktop that isn't expensive.