Kathy~You have taken the decision to provide your own materials, and that's fine....but the materials are now, ultimately your responsibility. He is correct in that.

I would ask him for his recommendations on materials and measurements needed for the job, adding 'suggestions are welcome.' (be sure to look coy and smile!)

If your tile supplier is willing, I see no problem with asking them to come out and measure and suggest design features, and try to get the tile setter involved as HE is the one doing the actual work and the materials and methods need to be within his 'comfort zone.'

As a tile mechanic, I strongly encourage you to inquire about waterproofing methods, mud pan construction, etc.

For more extensive discussions and questions/answers, you might stop in at www.johnbridge.com and peruse the forums under 'Tile Advice' and our 'Liberry'

Best of luck~

Here is a link that might be useful: Tile Advice

Kathy, when we did our master bath I was in a similar quandary where we wanted to buy our own materials and so on. This was a perquisite for the job and I discussed it initially with all the contractors I spoke to during the first meeting.

The contractor we ended up hiring was more than happy to comply with our request. The only thing he provided in the quote was cost of materials for building ie drywall, concrete, plumbing supplies and so on. He was also very helpful in that he was willing to pick up over sized stuff we had ordered for us, and he even arranged for a contractors discount at our tile store to help our bottom line.

Some tile stores like The Tile Shop will educate consumers and offer design suggestions but ours never got involved with our actual design. I did that myself and then our contractor helped me measure the space. I took the measurements to the tile store and they told us how much tile we needed. Keep in mind a 10% overage is always included but usually any extra full boxes can be returned.

I decided which direction to lay the floor and wall tile in. I also designed the niche and a couple of different layouts for the wall feature. Since our Contractor was the one laying the tile, he helped me to see which worked the best, advised me which wouldn't work, offered alternatives and suggestions and so on. So yes, IMHO you should be talking to whomever is going to actually be laying the tile and feeding off of their experience.

My point is, it was completely a partnership between the two of us which I feel is really key. I know if he had responded to our needs the way your contractor has, we would not have had the same results and/or been near as happy with the space. Of course he can't be responsible for the products you select but IMHO it sounds like he could be more hands on and willing to help you (HIS CLIENT) with the process. Did you discuss the tub with him before buying it to make sure it would work? Because it is like a puzzle, you need to consult with him before each purchase to make sure the size or model will work with what you already have in place.

Choosing your own materials doesn't make you a GC. If he's coordinating the project and hiring the tile guy, the electrical guy, the plumber, he's the GC, not you. Truth be told, it's his experience and expertise that your paying for, so if he's not the GC than what is he doing there?

Some of his responses also make me wonder, is he licensed and insured? Have you checked his references or seen other jobs he's done? Is he maybe not more helpful because he's not as qualified as your thinking he is? Our GC was really hands on and I was very involved as well. You can't just say, ok here's the stuff it's all yours, you need to be engaged during the entire process. If you are involved and are not comfortable with the process thus far, that's a bit of a red flag to me.

If he is licensed and insured and you are already contracted to use him, I think I'd be having a sit down with him to clarify expectations from both sides because you both really need to be on the same page and it doesn't sound like you are.

Thanks for your responses. Actually,he is licensed and insured and won a COTY award from the local NARI chapter. That's one of the reasons I chose him. It's really just very confusing because he started off so great and now he's getting wishy washy. the thing with the tub really threw me because I gave specifically gave him (and his plumber) a list of supplies at the onset. And told him what I wanted to do with the tub front. I've been doing all the work so far (which I really don't mind), but I have done my homework. I wasn't at all uncomfortable until he started posing his concerns which may or may not be legitimate. That's what I don't know.

And as far as the tile, I told him point blank that we should be talking to his tile guy, not the retailer. He didn't really answer me, but this is the only thing that makes sense to me. He keeps telling me to discuss it with "my tile guy" (the retailer). So then what did I hire him for?

I'm just so frustrated. Maybe I caught him on a bad day. But I'm setting up an appt w/him to go over this stuff. I'm paying him a lot of money for his expertise and so far I don't think I've gotten much of anything.

Sorry for venting. But thanks so much for your input.

Kathy

We recently remodeled two bathrooms, and we supplied all the fixtures, vanities, tile, etc. The only materials our contractor supplied were the building materials like drywall, insulation, etc.

He measured and told us how much tile to buy. Before we chose our showerheads/valves, etc., we ran the list by him so he could clear it with the plumber. It didn't seem to bother him at all.

It seems as if your contractor is upset that he is not getting to make his markup on the items you are supplying. Telling you that you are the GC? What is he there for, then? I'd be upset, too.

Kathy,

I'm really sorry for the experience you're having, you have every right to be upset. Even though at the moment it all seems for not, I'm still glad to see that you've done your homework and you verified his background. So many people don't and end up on the loosing end. I know this isn't going to sound very nice, but a lot of contractors just don't seem to work for women very well and can be real jerks if you let them. I hope your conversation with him helps to clear up your concerns and get your project back on track. --Lukki

Katy -
I have done a lot of remodels where I supplied the materials that showed such as tile and fixtures. Contractor supplied the installation materials, backerboard, waterproofing, pipes, etc.

What was written into the contract, and stated upfront to the contractor was that installation issues were his problem and the quality problems of the materials I select are mine.

EXAMPLES: If the tile fades, that's my problem. If the shower leaks and the tiles fall off the wall, that's his problem.

If the faucet handle breaks - my problem. If the joint where he attached faucet to plumbing leaks - his problem.

HOWEVER: Your contractor is right about the tile. If you are buying your own materials, it's your responsibility to have a worked-out design for the tile setter to follow, and to buy enough to complete the design with spares in case of breakage.

It is your responsibility to buy a toilet that has the right dimensions, sinks that will fit, etc. You can't just do it to save money and shirk the responsibility of acting as your own purchasing agent.

Lazygardens, That may have been the way the tile arrangement worked for you, but it's not how it is for everyone. As I explained in my response, our contractor DID help measure and made no qualms about doing so. It seems each job can be a little different depending on the person doing the job. Personally, I don't feel it's good business on his part to act difficult just because he may be loosing a little cash on the mark up of materials. Everyone is trying to save money these days, it's not an uncommon or unreasonable request. It is a reasonable expectation to accept responsibility for the products she purchases however she did say in another thread that she had originally discussed the tub with the contractor and tiler before purchasing it.

The entire tub purchase thing has me scratching my head. Having been on both sides of the proverbial fence, Kathy in that case did everything right and the contractor is balking IMO. If he approved the material purchase, he should honor his part of the deal. If he was unsure of the material purchase he should have suggested they meet to check out the quality of the tub first.

The same goes for tile. Though this can be done either way, at a minimum the person laying the tile should be involved in the decisions on layout, unless specified that the layout is the responsibility of the owner.

Hopefully it's just a communication issue that can be ironed out. It's possible that the contractor is in the same boat, not seeing a defined line in responsibilities.

Just remember that at the end of the day the person writing the checks is the boss. I've dealt with contractors who think that you agree to pay them and they do as they wish. My dealings with them are brief.

On the flip side, always remember what you are asking of the contractor, and be fair in what you are asking for the compensation you are paying them. Time spent reviewing materials, pick ups, etc are all eating into their time as well as yours.

Thanks for your responses. We (I asked my husband to be there) met with our contractor yesterday. He was very pleasant and he shared that he usually gets into trouble when letting customers select their own material. He also admitted that he isn't really giving his full consideration to the emails and info I send him because my job is not until the end of summer and he's swamped right now. I can understand this, but it's what will get us into trouble. Unfortunately, my husband kind of sided with the contractor on this one which made me shake my head. If I'm gonna be selecting the material I want to make damn sure it's the right stuff before I buy it, but if the contractor is really not vested in this because if anything is wrong with the material it will be on me, then I already feel like I'm on the losing end of this.

Another sticking point was the tile. Once again he balked at having me talk to the tile installer. I asked him if things would be different if he (the contractor) would be doing everything and he said yes. Then, of course, we would be talking to his tile guy to design the layout. But since I'm buying the tile it's on me to figure out the design with the retailer's help (and picture this...the place I'm getting the tile is contractor heaven...lots of guys with work boots, flannel shirts and tattoos...I'm not confident that they're gonna want to discuss tile design). Anyway, I never really said I was gonna get the tile, I just wanted to select it. So he pretty much said since I chose an odd size I have to deal with the consequences. He did say, in his favor, that if the retailer didn't want to help me he would.

The puzzleing thing is that the guy seems to have a good reputation...and he's won an award...and he's really, really nice. So I just don't get it. He's kind of been laying more and more on me (like now I have to get the recessed lights and the switches) that I never asked for. I went into this just wanting to get the toilet, tub, sink and fixtures. Now I'm getting all the visible stuff...which is OK with me, but not how I set out. So I don't want to be held responsible if he doesn't have the time to guide me. I think it really all does come down to money. He feels like I somehow am cheating him of a certain percentage...but he also said that contractors get their profit where they can. So I don't think he's losing anything.

OMG...I've rambled enough. Still don't know what to do.

Kathy

I get the impression that you guy isn't fully vested in your project yet, thus his somewhat apathetic replies to your issues. By his own admission, he's still juggling other work, and that's his admitted priority.

In general, and you already know this, but for clarification and for the masses:

- a plumbing store may charge a walk-in customer $100 for a faucet. The customer is responsible for installing the faucet.

- If your GC brings you to that same store to shop, they'll sell him the faucet for $90 but you get billed for $100. He makes $10 which compensates him for any time spent on that faucet. Any issues with the installation (defective product, parts missing, installation issues) and it's all on the GC. That's what the $10 is for.

With you buying the tile yourself, the GC may have lost his enthusiasm for helping you with layout and design because he lost his little slice of the tile pie when you bought on your own.

If you re-emphasize that you just want to "pick it out" and that it will be purchased through him, he may become more enthusiastic...or again, it may just be that your project isn't close enough on the horizon to really get him involved at this point.

I presume "his" (the GC's) tile guy is going to do the installation? If so, it may be tough to the GC to even have the leverage to get the tile guy to come over to meet with you. Again, with him losing his slice of the tile pie, it seems like he's shrinking away from anything that has to do with the tile.

I think he's probably just too far away from your project to be that enthused over the details. He may brighten up or be more responsive as the contract date gets closer.

I am surprised that the tile showroom isn't more forthcoming with design and layout advice.

So yeah, a lot of wishy-washyness at this point. No real advice to offer other than possibly ask him is there anything you can do to being your project back in focus. Ask if you've overstepped your bounds as a homeowner. I'm not telling you to do a mea culpa and fall on the sword, it just might give you some insight as to how he feels about the project.

Just emphasize that you know this project is important to him, it's his livelihood. But it's also important to you, it's your house. You just want to pick out things that you know you'll like, thus your interest in being involved in material selection. And it's especially important to you that since tile is expensive and somewhat permanent, you want to confirm the tile choice and design will please you before it goes up on the wall.

With the tile design and material getting approved before installation, there should be no complaints afterwards. Win-Win.

Sorry for your angst.

Kathy,

At this point, from what you describe, it seems you are letting the contractor and your husband call the shots and yet it will be you holding the bag if something is wrong. When we did the gut job on our master bath, my DH was involved but when it came to the contractor, it was on a listening capacity only. It's not that he didn't have a say, his thoughts and opinions were always welcome and valued, however, since I was the one calling the shots and responsible if it went wrong, he deferred.

In the beginning, I was like you, worried that I was not doing something correctly and/or intimidated by the contractor. Then in response to one of my posts about a conflict we were having over the niche, Bill Vincent said basically the same thing that signmaster has said to you, the homeowner is the boss. Coming from a pro of Bill's caliber, that is all I needed to know. After that my perspective and approach changed. Instead of asking, I instructed. It made all the difference. I was always nice about it, but the reaction I got was very different and in the end, it helped make the job move along much smoother.

You need to do the same thing. It really doesn't matter that your husband has agreed with him. You are the one making the calls and it's up to you to take control of the project and put your foot down. Let the contractor know that you understand he's busy, but if he signs off on something and you buy it, the responsibility will then become his. If you don't want recessed lighting, tell him so. Or if you don't want to be responsible to get it, tell him no that's something you'll need him to take care of.

The other thing that makes no sense to me is why would he consult a tiler and not you? And what does a different shaped tile have to do with it. Our contractor wasn't jumping for joy when he saw we chose slate for our project, but it was what it was. I think he charged a little higher premium to install it which was expected since it takes longer.

If it were me, I'd cut him out of the tiling portion of the project all together and hire someone else. Don't assume those tilers you saw won't talk design with you because that just isn't so. That's what they do for a living, they will have pictures of projects they've done and suggestions on what you can do. You'd just need to let who ever you were interviewing know you'll need help with the design, some may say, no that's not how I work, but I'd be willing to bet there will be some who won't mind at all and will be much easier to deal with in the long run. --Lukki

Thank you so much. You guys are so supportive. I was really beginning to feel like a pariah....He actually told me that when we first met I came on like "gang busters". Maybe I did, but I just gave him a list of what I wanted done and a list of the fixtures I wanted installed. I thought that was called "prepared", but he said none of his customers came to hime like that! More and more I am becoming disillusioned with him. And the thing is, his price was higher that those who quoted me with allowances for fixtures. I'm sure it would have evened out, but there's so much I'm uncomfortable with. His plumber is now saying I should tile the top of the tub...No, no, no...this tub is not made for that application. His plumber has never heard of Kerdi. Should I be worried? I asked the contracter very specifically at our meeting to take some time to figure the alcove length because I'm dealing in inches and it matters when I order the tile. I want two alcove walls where I can tile the front. Well, with only five minutes left in our meeting (I had to make a drs. appt) he said, I can do it now. When you're dealing with inches, doing calculations and planning on the fly isn't going to cut it. But that's what he did and came up with exactly what I didn't want. I think our meeting yesterday showed me problems that I didn't know existed, but verified my feeling that this guy, however nice he is, is somehow not vested in my project. I think he's gonna lay anything that goes wrong on me. But that's not the way I started. Can Bill Vincent come and do my bathroom????????? Or Mongo?????? I need someone who knows what he's doing. Seriously, I don't mind spending the money if I feel confident that my contracter will execute my wishes and feel confident in the plan. I just don't feel like that now. And I don't want to go back to interviewing contracters. Especially now that most of the stuff has been bought. How many contracters are gonna be willing to step into something like that? Not too many, I'm sure!

Well, the way I see it is, you are very lucky to have found this out before the job really begins so you have time to fix it. Interviewing for new contractors is a walk in the park compared to dealing with a contractor you're growing increasingly worried about before a job even begins. Who knows what kinds of messes you'll be dealing with later.

You should not avoid acting on your gut feelings just because you're afraid or assume the worst. You don't know if a new contractor will decline the job just because you've bought some of your stuff already. I know mine wouldn't. Sorry if this sounds strong but I think that's just an excuse. None of us like the interviewing process but really, which is the worst of two evils?

Oh you're so very, very right! Thank you!

I wish you all the best Kathy. You seem like a very detailed person who's already put a lot of heart and soul into your project to ensure it's right. I've been there, and know you deserve to work with someone much better than this guy. Awards and experience don't mean squat if he's a jerk.

Reading your post at 18:54, what you wrote is an alarm of sorts. It seems he's more comfortable with people who pay him to "build me a bathroom" and he wants little or no contact with the homeowner until he's on his way out the door at the end of the project.

I don't get a lot of that. I try to put a lot of effort and hours up front...with bathrooms and kitchens I especially try to pull out of the owner how they live and how they'll use the room, from sun-up to sun-down. Small nudges in the room layout can make the room so much more effective for the owner.

The time of day the room is used can be important too. Does someone get up at 4:00am while the other sleeps until 7? Do they use the bathroom at the same time. If so, do they like using the bathroom at the same time???? Time of day use can also effect lighting. Natural versus artificial, task versus ambient or area lighting.

It's also important to me to find out their attitudes towards maintenance and cleaning. That can effect what surfaces get covered with what material.

I dunno. I like homeowners with ideas. I like building houses that work for the owner instead of the owner trying change their lifestyle to fit the house or the room.

I think you need a good sit-sown with this guy. It sounds like he may do good work, but he's not used to working with or for an involved owner.

In the plumber's defense, I could see a plumber not knowing what Kerdi is, but a tiler should be familiar with it.

It's a tough call, but as far as having materials on hand, that shouldn't deter you from looking for a new GC if you think this current relationship is beyond repair.

It's like getting married. You marry the person "as is". Trying to change them afterwards? Messy.

Best, Mongo

There is so much sound advice here. The more I read over your posts, the more inclined I am that my gut should be listened to. And my gut is telling me to chose another contractor. He has estimated his cost and labor on this job at almost 25K. That's far from chump change to me. The bathroom is only 6x8. But OK, if that's what it's gonna cost me, fine. But for that much money I think I deserve more than just an "installer". Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Just my feeling. I think I'll have my husband look over this thread and see what he thinks.

Thank you all again for your advice and support.

Kathy

Kathy,

Location is always relevant when it comes to pricing and of course design is a factor too, but considering that you're buying your own materials and he seems to be shlumping a lot of the responsibilities onto you, 25,000 is high in my opinion.

Just so you can see some comparisons, I've attached a thread that I think you and your DH will find interesting. If you do a search for "costs" several threads come up, but this one will be most helpful. The breakdown for our bathroom costs are in it and include 1800.00 worth of cabinetry and 1200 in granite, cost 12000 for labor & materials. I've posted pics here lots of times but if you want to see them for a comparison, let me know, I'll be happy to post them again.

Here is a link that might be useful: Costs shared by fellow renovators!

If you could post your pix that would be great...thanks!

Choosing materials for a build doesn't make you the GC of the project, but it does shift the responsibility od dealing with the manufacturer on any warranty issues yours. It also shifts the responsibility of making sure that you bought all of the correct components needed on site. That means the correct valve for your shower as well as the correct trim kit and the correct drain and all of the other associated parts. If you do not get the right parts, you frustrate your contracor and cause delays, which cost you money. You are also responsible for communicating any install issues with the products you buy to your installer. If your tub needs Widget A in order to be able to install it, your contractor needs to know, and you need to supply Widget A. And you are responsible to be sure that all of these products are on site at the proper time.

This is a great deal of responsibility for an inexperienced homeowner to assume. If you are not ready to be responsible for the errors you may make in choosing and supplying your components, then perhaps it would be best to let your contractor assume that responsibility. Give him the list of products you want and let him source them from his own suppliers. Your labor quote may go down, because part of his profit is in that markup of materials. That's probably why his quote was higher than some of your other quotes.

Kathy,

I can't begin to tell you how much we have in common!

This is my second ground-up build; the first time, my contractor was a very nice guy, but had a major medical event w/his son and basically checked out on me. Luckily I am in a small town where you get to know the guys who have the best reputations in their respective fields, so I had a good relationship already w/my carpenter and my painter, and together they literally helped me finish my house.

This time, I was very excited about hiring a real builder, because the stress and sheer time involved in research ( I LIVED on these forums!), purchasing, etc. last time was almost too much. Our GC is a friend, but I also respect his approach to construction ... case in point: most builders in our area like to put on a show of being the boss and rarely want to get their hands dirty; my GC is very hands-on, willing to pick up tools or even a push broom, and I love him for it.

After what I've read, I'm very curious about your financial agreement w/this guy. Some builders around here are cost plus, some are flat fee (yes, one guy will build your house for $10K, no matter the size or style, but gets kickbacks from his subs - and squeezes in a bunch of houses in a year), and I'm sure there are other arrangements.

We signed a contract w/our builder: after going over the plans, we talked about the level of quality we would want, and he helped us put together a rough budget. After showing us what he thought he could build our house for, we agreed on a flat fee - which came to a little less than 10% of the projected cost. If (when) we went over that number, it would be because of decisions I made and he didn't plan to make money on those. And if those decisions cost me a lot of time and research, that was my choice. I could invest time and save money in the areas I chose, or I could leave decisions and purchasing in his hands and pay the bills when he brought me receipts.

We made sure he understood that I'm a very involved homeowner, but I still don't think he'd worked w/anyone who is quite as aggressive as I am about looking for online prices, and buying the things that would save me money in the end. For instance: we wanted the Kohler in-ceiling square shower fixture - the one w/four separate squares of 54 holes? Upon hearing that, he said, "I'll check w/Ardmore Plumbing Supply - they'll probably have to order it, so I'll get an estimated date if you want to start picking out trim for your master shower." Of course, I asked him to get me their price before he ordered through them. I knew I could get the shower for about $460 online; the local store wanted $700+ for the same. Our builder was genuinely surprised when I told him the difference and understood completely why I wanted to order it myself.

That Kohler purchase set the tone for the rest of our build so far. He has been great about keeping me abreast of what kinds of things will be needed and when: when the time came to buy lighting, it never occurred to either of us that my desire to go online for great lighting deals should mean it was then my responsibility to buy ALL the lighting - recessed cans/shower lights/fluorescents (sp?) for closets, etc.

There aren't many style choices to be made on those pieces of lighting, so he thoughtfully made me a list of lighting he thought I'd want to purchase. I went to Lumens.com - since they don't charge sales tax or shipping charges - and ordered all my bath vanity lighting and ceiling fans while he handled the rest.

We found a way to work together that worked for us; as the GC, he took full responsibility for all hiring, scheduling, coordination of subs, measuring and purchasing anything that I didn't speak up to say, "I want to buy this myself." He and his tile guy got a tape, a pad and a pencil, and measured everything for wood flooring and tile - then let me tell him that I'd be getting all the tile, but he should feel free to order the wood flooring from the guy who would be laying it.

As on any other project, his first reponsibility is staying on top of the zillion things that have to come together on any construction project. In my opinion, purchasing "visible items", as you said, is a small job compared to what a true GC does.

VERY long story short: your GC probably is a nice guy, but he's gotten very comfortable doing things a certain way. An involved homeowner can sometimes be a pain in the *ss, I'm sure, and I can only imagine how much easier it is to work for someone who hands over plans/materials requirements/inspirational photos, and then comes back to the finished product to write checks. But based on my experience, a Contractor who wants to do a quality job and leave a satisfied customer behind is willing to adapt to the needs of that customer, while still offering as much support as possible in the areas that CLEARLY fall under his jurisdiction.

Sounds like you need to have a "come to Jesus meeting", as we say here, w/your husband and GC where you state what you plan to do in the process of your reno and what you expect out of your Contractor. If that meeting ends on a positive note, good for you. If not, then - as has already been said - how fortunate you found out now that he isn't a good fit! I wish you all the luck in the world.

I have to agree with the feelings of Mongoct on these responses. My first impressions were the same, that this GC is used to people handing over enough money to "build me a very nice bathroom".

While some owners won't take the time to decide for themselves what they want, you (Kathy) obviously DO want to take the time and have it your way.

I hope if you decide to stay with him things iron out and he gets in line with what you are trying to do to maintain overall control of the finished product. But with seeing the price involved and his general attitude from your posts, my first gut feeling would be to drop him like a hot rock.

In my view someone doing custom work should be thinking along the lines of Mongo, working with the homeowner while at the same time advising them of things they had not yet taken into account. Any good GC should IMO take some time to educate and when needed advise their clients on selections.

The more I reread this thread the more convinced I am that, however nice, this guy's not for me. It was so helpful to get feedback from all of you since I am in such unfamiliar territory. I had only my gut to work with and nothing really to back up my feelings that something wasn't right here. You have all helped me so very, very much.

I had my husband read over this thread and when he was finished he turned to me and said "Get another contractor!" So I guess it's back to the drawing board.

But I'm happy that I found out now and not later. After the marriage....

Thank you all again for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Kathy

Kathy,

I'm so glad your husband is now hearing your concerns and you've made a decision that may have better results. I've been gone for a few days but hope the pics (which I'm always happy to post hee hee) are helpful. It was a lot of work and we're very happy with it. This was a two door jack & jill bathroom and a complete gut job. We converted the tub/shower combo to a full shower and had to move a wall to do it. As you can see it's nothing over the top, but we don't feel we compromised either.

Here's the befores:

And the afters:

this was still during the build

floors

larger window

Love the cabinets...I think those are the same ones I ordered (but mine are espresso). Thanks for posting the pix and you help along the way...

Kathy

I feel strongly about supplying my own materials since in my experience contractors are very likely to supply the cheapest builder's grade and get a cut.