Not ridiculous! I often wonder the same thing & especially when I look @ all the new constructions in our neighborhood. The flyers in the houses that tell about the sq. footage & features of course say a specified sq. footage, but does that include jst. heated space? Or does it include the garage, front porch & screened porch as well?

For your purposes, PR with your son's friends and gossipers around the community, state the entire truth if you're the one speaking: 2500 living space plus a 1500 sq ft unfinished basement. It's apparently important to your son (you must be diappointed to see his values having taken a wrong turn; perhaps this is a good time to discuss why this is bothering him) to state it as 4000 sq.ft. You could just let him have his fun. You could encourage him to say "just as much as we need with no wasted space" or "I don't have a clue and can't imagine why it matters" or something that puts the onus back on the tasteless braggers to justify their own public relations. Or, maybe they truthfully don't know how to calculate it either.

Locally, square footage has never been stated in real estate transactions; that's starting to change under the influence of interstate conventions. Where lenders, insurance companies, and builders are concerned (all the people who are rightfully concerned with square footage) they are speaking of "conditioned space", ie, heated. Anything unheated is not included. Which is great for us, because our builder is "giving" us our big garage, our screen porch, our workshop for FREE!!! What a great country!

"(you must be diappointed to see his values having taken a wrong turn; perhaps this is a good time to discuss why this is bothering him)"

BJ - You couldn't be more wrong. I certainly don't question his values, he is an amazing young man. This is simply an ongoing, light hearted debate that we are having. His/our friends count everything, I don't....I just wonder the right way.

It is generally heated/cooled space. However, different areas do different things. Ours counts covered porch space, for example.
As far as what to say...I don't like to answer this question except on this forum (where no one knows me!) and to close friends/family. I have had a few experiences where I did answer honestly, and the immediate next question became "wow, how much are you paying for that?" I've also had the follow-up of "wow, why do you guys need so much space?" I don't think that the sq ft question is that nosy, but I do think the follow ups are. I've limited my response since then to "It turned out to be more than we expected." In your case, if your basement is finished, then by all means include it in the total...If you are using it as part of your home on a daily basis, then it is part of your home. I didn't infer from your posting that your son wanted the house to seem larger to others, but rather that he thought it would be fair to include the basement b/c he has seen others do so. I think that is a reasonable assumption for him to make based on his life experiences to date.

charliedawg:

I apologize. I know they do now; it's their generation. I just always question why; seems to me there's the implication that if it's bigger it's better. And where would they get that impression? Advertising mostly.

If he wants to know what's "technically correct" rather than brag on the square footage, tell him how to find out. It'll be more knowledge for him. And fairly interesting too. I never knew till we started the building venture.

In our area it's very common to say (and sometimes even on real estate) that a place has "WXYZ" square footage under roof.
Me? 90% of the time I break it down like I have so many times on this forum...4600sq ft home, 1800sq ft garage, 1500sq ft back porch. I usually leave the "dog-house" sq footage out of the calculations! LOL

Around here it's common to say finished space above ground and then say finished basement separately, so our house is 3,200 sq ft plus 900 sq ft of finished basement. If an ad said 4,000 sq ft house, I'd expect it all to be above ground. If an ad said 4,000 sq ft of finished living space, then I'd expect some of it to be in the basement.

I don't think this issue really comes up much here because no one has basements. Most of us do have pretty big garages to help with storage but it's never included in the square footage.

Some of this is regional. In my area basement does not count even if it is finished, even if it is a walkout. In that case, you would say, 2500 square feet plus a 1500 square foot basement. Finished attics DO count, because they are 100% above grade. (If a basement was 100% above grade it would count, but then it wouldn't be a basement, would it?) However, there is a complicated formula to figure out the square footage of the attic. It has to do with knee-walls, ceiling heights, etc.

The garage doesn't count, even if it is heated (as with the basement, list garage square footage separately or just say "2 car garage" or whatever). Porches, etc., do not count. If the "porch" is insulated, has windows, and is heated then it does count (is that even a porch? We usually call them sunrooms).

I also hate to answer the question about how much square footage we have. It is always the follow-up question that is awkward ("it looks bigger than that", "why do you need that much space", "seems like a waste of money", "I'd never want a house that big", "how do you heat/cool it?). We have 3798 square feet. The house looks bigger because we chose to have a 2 story great room. We could easily have a room over that room, which would add another 342 sqaure feet, but we didn't want to. So the house is 3798 square feet with the footprint/look of a 4140 sf house.

I think the 'right way' depends on where you live. I am in Oregon have an Interior Design degree and work in Real Estate. In school we were taught to figure living area separately from garages and unfinished areas. Outside areas were not a factor unless they were 'large' and still most likely were not called out on the 'title block' of our blueprints. Though since garages and outdoor living spaces are ever increasing in size that may have changed or be changing. In our region we quote sf as anything finished,interior and livable. So a 1500sf home with 2000sf of garage and porches and a 1500sf finished basement would be 3000 sf. Then we would describe other amenities about the home. Perhaps the differences in building styles and climate make for the differences in factoring sf. If we included unfinished basements, porches, decks and garages in the total sf here-we would be 'cheating'.

Charliedawg, I would guess that your son was simply looking for a common way to communicate the size of your home based on the method his friend's family used. I don't think including the basement sqare footage implies some sort of moral dilemma or bragging. If it does and he is 14 and this is your worst problem-Congratulations!! Space is space whether it is above or below grade. Some people are offended by any conversation with numbers in it, personally for me it is part of a description and helps me get an idea of what a home is like. I know of a friend who visited a 3 bedroom 'cottage' on the lake and when she arrived it would have fit her house, my house and another into it. It was the lake cottage to the owners, but when I think of a cottage that is not what comes to mind!

"Anything unheated is not included. Which is great for us, because our builder is "giving" us our big garage, our screen porch, our workshop for FREE!!! What a great country!"

How did you manage that? I can't get the two builders I have narrowed it down to to NOT count all of that! That is what our major delay is because our actual design of what we thought was living space is 4,000 sq. feet, but with the garage, the screened porch and the two story air space all being counted as living space, it bumps the sq. ft up tremendously. This is where my DH and I feel we have been the most "green" if you will, about designing a custom home and then trying to get accurate sq. footage for bids. Hindsight is always 20/20. So, it is back to the drawing board for us on some parts of our design.

As for your son Charliedawg, he's just being a typical proud kid. We've all been there done that to our parents. Most of us just forget. Let him be proud of his new home too.

BTW, saw your post about the stolen wiring. My DH and I felt so bad. We're sorry and hope it doesn't delay things too much. What a gut kick. Hang in there!

eventhecatisaboy:

In Atlanta, GA, builders and lenders only "count" heated square footage. I was joking before, because we all know that however you count the square footage, you are going to pay for it. Here, because the builders all use the same calculations, we can easily compare their bids. But what we had to learn ahead of time was how to think about the design, like you said.

The way your area's builders calculate total sq. ft. makes your cost per sq.ft. seem lower. It's just a friendlier number. ("Look at all the space you're getting for your money! And it's only costing you 'x' dollars per square foot!)

If say, calculating it as they do here, you were building 2000 sq.ft. of heated space, plus 2000 sq.ft. of all the other spaces (which ARE NOT included in the count) for $400K, and then your square footage cost is $200. per sq.ft. because only 2000 sq.ft. is counted. And you get all the other space for FREE!! We're so lucky.

But suppose, like where you are, you were building 2000 sq.ft. of heated space, plus 2000 sq. ft. of other spaces, which WERE included in the count, for $400K. Then your cost per sq.ft. is only $100. per sq. ft. because you're building 4000 sq.ft. If I were a builder I'd insist on counting the square footage the way they do there, because it seems SO much cheaper. Maybe that's why they do it that way there.

Here they do it the other way and it makes it sound like a pricier house, or like building costs are higher here, doesn't it? It's all illusion. You're going to pay the same total either way, IF you build the same size house. It will cost what it costs. Not knowing how builders calculate it was very unfair to you; it's cost you valuable time.

I read an architect's article, several years before we started designing, about how he estimates building costs. He breaks each space down by the type of space and what that type of space usually costs relative to the main heated space. Heated space is full price, say $100. per sq.ft. He figured garages at 40% of heated space: $40. per sq.ft. Porches at 50% of heated, or $50. per sq.ft. Vaulted spaces at 150% of heated space: $150. per sq.ft. (due to more expensive roof structure for the vault). He said it's not as exact an estimate as a builder does, but it gives him a better ballpark than just dumping all space in together at the same price per sq.ft. That info. helped me to design our house. I was always thinking: what are the specific costs related to this type of space and how expensive will it be to build?

We're trying to limit our size and build green, making some compromises on that. Building costs are one thing, and there are many ways to calculate them. But natural resources and environmental pollution are a little different. Trees are trees, etc., whether they're used to build garages or porches or kitchens. Although, if I didn't keep that in mind in Atlanta, I'd think I was really limiting my use of resources, since all my unheated space apparently DOESN'T COUNT! It must not be built from trees.

The "correct" (and verifiable) way is the assessor's way.

If I figured "under roof" we'd have an 8000 sq ft house! We have a one-story house with full height attic that extends over the garage, plus a screened porch. Were I to add in the unfinished basement, golly, we're up to 10K! Tack on more outdoor living space (paved terrace and patio) and it's even bigger. (No wonder this puppy cost so much -- but the per sq ft cost sure shrinks.)

Here the assessor measures the exterior of the house and includes only above ground living space that is HVAC-ed. That's 2900 in our case.

BJ

How I wish I would have read that same article before we got started! Do you know how dumb we feel? I have thought this from the beginning, but we have no business building a new home LOL! We knew of course there is construction costs to build those areas, but when our home designer didn't include those as living space,(or our total sq. footage), when presenting our plans to us, that is where we got confused. Maybe we will start calling it construction sq. footage to keep it clear for us dummies!

We don't have basements here but lot's of people have bonus room over the garage like we do. If it's finished and cooled/heated it counts as square footage. So we have 3012sf + 452sf finished bonus room = 3464sf. But to simplify, I usually round up to 3500.

Well, I found the architect's article in my files. And they've put an excel spreadsheet on his website that might help a lot of us. This is from his website, www.knightarchitect.com. Sorry I have no idea how to do links and whatever:

How Big is a Square Foot?
(Click here to read)
By Robert Knight

This article originaly appeared in Fine HomeBuilding Magazine. This modified version includes a spread sheet of house costs.

Construction Cost Estimator - Download zipped Excel file here
By Robert Knight and Bill Pryor

An excel file that can generate a cost estimate similar to the one described in "How Big is a Square Foot?".

Note: The file is zipped. When it appears on your hard drive double click on it to expand it to an Excel file. The file requires Microsoft Excel to run.

PS We are currently experiencing difficulties downloading this with Netscape Navigator and are working on it.

A few months back, I asked the question on this forum about how to know what was meant, when someone said a home cost $100 a square foot. Were they including garages, basements, and porches? Here in Oklahoma, when we talked to builders they would always say "price per square foot." So just for example, for our plan that could mean $300K (heated only) or $400K (everything.) Someone on the forum kept coming back and asking me if I really thought I should get porches and garages free. It made me crazy!! All I was asking for was the "formula"--a $300K home is $100 a square foot--does that mean it has 3000 ft heated space or does it mean a 2500 heated area with a nice size garage and porch? Where were you all you smart people when I asked that question???? I'm glad to know that you all get it! Now that we are in the middle of building, I'm not really sure exactly how much footage we have. Oh well!
Susan

Thanks BJ, but it is ok, we know we started out like a couple of dimwits LOL! We have gone ahead with the driveway because it is long and needed to be done for whoever the builder will be. Hope to decide soon.

Sorry mlauder for not having your back when you posted your original question! I was probably still in the nieve, confused stage back then--wait, yes, I think I'm still in it! LOL

when someone asks me our square footage, depending on the context of the question, I say either, "3,600 sq. ft." or "3,600 sq. ft. plus a 2,400 sq. ft. basement."

I wouldn't ever say 6,000 sq. ft. without mentioning that 2,400 sq. ft. of that is a basement. I agree with you. That would seem deceptive.

I tell people how much above grade, finished square footage I have, plus a finished basement. I don't include the garage or porch.

I'm a little north of luckymom and in our area, sq footage means finished living space. If a basement is fully finished, it's not considered deceptive to simply include it. Especially here where so many homes have walkout basements.

Garages, decks, porches and unfinshed basements are stated separately.

Square footage in new homes in Ontario must be limited to above grade year round habitable space measured from the outside of the exterior walls and including stair openings but not any excess open space, e.g., two storey rooms. Finished floor areas below the first storey may be included in the total figure, but must be designated separately.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calculating space in Ontario new homes

For residential property the usual method is taken from the voluntary standard "American National Standard for Single-Family Residential Buildings - Square Footage - Method for Calculating"(ANSI Z765-1996).

Area calculations are taken to the exterior face of the building at each floor level and, in the case of attached units, to the center of demising walls. The standard makes a clear distinction between finished areas, unfinished areas, below grade finished areas, storage areas, porches, garages, patios, and decks and requires separate reporting of these areas.

Considering how universally this standard has been accepted I can think of no reason to make up a new one.

This explains it all:

Here is a link that might be useful: Measuring Houses

Generally to me, its HVAC habitable areas of the home (IE...even if you heat and cool the garage, it is not included). Many say above grade (I guess main level only) with the basement stated separately or not at all but my walkout basement is above grade. The only thing not built on top of the walkout basement is the garage which is on natural grade of the main floor level. They always say that basements are discounted b/c they are cheaper to build and less functional. I can assure you our basement was anything but cheap with 11 foot high 10 inch thick concrete walls on 1 main length wall and 1 main width wall (the other 2 main walls open completely to the outside). It just doesn't have an expensive kitchen running up the ave sq ft cost.

The next measure to me is any unfinished habitable area. That does not include spacious attic spaces with minimal flooring for storage but would include any unfinished but framed and stubbed bedrooms, bathrooms etc. For example, we are framing but not finishing a bedroom, a media room, the mechanical room, a hobby room and another room we call "extra space". It could easily be a theater room. All totaled, probably 1200 sq ft. But it is roughed in for everything including HVAC.

The next measure I am familiar with is "under roof"; again, excludes attic storage but does include garage, porches etc.

I see there are some very specific technical definitions but these measures are relevant to me. They tell me how much usuable space a house has.

I've always found this *so* confusing, but our builder was great. When he broke it down for us he gave us an estimate of:

$90/sq. ft. for air conditioned space

$40/sq ft. for garages and covered porches

$60/sq ft. for unfinished bonus areas (we specified how much finishing we wanted and I may be remembering that wrong)

Now telling family and friends is another story entirely. I usually say that our plan says its 2700 sq ft but we made some changes :-)

This is so interesting! Not only is the actual measuring just about as complex as anything can get, but here and there are hints at what charliedawg originally started out with: how to present our square footage to others.

Our problem is our family, esp. parents, who are in their mid-eighties. They grew up in the depression and never got over the mindset that you must be very frugal and never have things just for the pleasure they provide. Our house will be about 3000 sq.ft. for just the two of us. About 200 sq. ft. of that is an office and half bath for DH, which has an exterior door so he can have clients come and go.

Nevertheless, we fear they will have heart attacks when they see what a "palace" we've built. (Finishes are not grand at all, compared to most of what I read here.) We can be vague about square footage during the build, but eventually they'll see the finished house. Oh, how I dread that day!!

bj -- Surely your aged parents realize that you and your DH are worthy of your "palace". Weren't you your daddy's Little Princess, and your DH his mommy's Prince?

Somehow the American work ethic lost the "deserving" part and got into "depriving". (Not that we deserve anything "just 'cause", but we do deserve what we have worked for and can afford.) I hate that stupid quote on the "Buying and Selling a Home" forum -- about living beneath your means. What pointless martyrdom!

Your folks have made their choices, lived their lives as they saw fit -- possibly not exactly as THEIR parents would have! Or maybe they did live to please their parents, and now they want to justify their thwarted desires. (Removing shrink hat. Stepping off soapbox.)

Maybe you should save some of the "brags" off this board to point out how many times your house would fit into some of these HUGE builds.

I hate that stupid quote on the "Buying and Selling a Home" forum -- about living beneath your means. What pointless martyrdom!

DH and I have "lived beneath our means" for a long time. We are now looking forward to a comfortable and financially secure retirement. "Pointless martydom"? Not for us.

My sis and BIL lived pretty lavishly all their lives (he earned a very good income), and now they are having to sell their dream home (along with two time shares) because they can no longer afford them since he's retired.

I have to agree with Chisue to a certain degree. If "living beneath your means" is a comfortable life style for you then have at it. When it's worn as a badge of honor? Give me a break . . .

I'm not advocating living BEYOND your means. But living WITHIN your means doesn't equate with living beneath them. What's the point? Remember Scrooge?

DH and I are retired and "resting comfortably" -- within our means and, importantly(!), above ground.

If I lived in an area where only 'completely above grade' was counted, I'd berm my main floor-- a tiny bit of it, anyway-- and pay no property taxes. Better yet, I'd finish a tiny space in the [unbermed] attic, so I could have a 3 square foot house: a bit smaller than a phone booth! Heck, round here, all new government buildings must be bermed to conserve energy.

I found the 'how big' question irritating as hell when I first started building. Now I don't care. I just tell the truth: 5500 heated, plus garage. Larger than most in my area, but smaller than some. No stress, no fuss. People who like me are thrilled, people who don't are annoyed.

Truth is a beautiful thing.

hate that stupid quote on the "Buying and Selling a Home" forum -- about living beneath your means. What pointless martyrdom!

I'm not advocating living BEYOND your means. But living WITHIN your means doesn't equate with living beneath them. What's the point? Remember Scrooge?

As I said, "the point" is to save/invest the difference. It's the reason DH and I can look forward to a comfortable retirement. (We did not/will not inherit anything). You can live WITHIN your means and live from one paycheck to the next. Not my idea of a comfortable way of life.

I see nothing wrong with buying anything one can afford. But the American work ethic seems to have been replaced by an "I deserve this" mentality. Not "I've earned this", or "I can pay for this", but "I deserve this". I find that troubling, especially when you consider that Americans are going more and more into debt and saving/investing less and less.

"Anything unheated is not included" YUP

include "finished"

We are 1600 sf of finished living area with a walkout unfinished basement which is not included.

Also you can look at what your house is assessed at - what do THEY use.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rod and DJ's House Building Adventure

I just got back from a much needed vacation. Whew! I feel refreshed and highly recommend this to everyone in the middle of a build.

I can see that most people here are just as confused as I am. LOL. Our basement is a walkout and will be finished......eventually. :)

Based on the tips in here I should say anywhere form 2500 w/ a 1500 sf basement to 4700 total sf (including covered decks and misc spaces). I'm going to go with the 2500 w/ 1500 basement. It's a lot more conservative but just feels right to me.

I'm a big believer in living within your means. If that's a 1 br shack or 10 br mansion.....enjoy!!!!

zone8 -- I'd say you and your DH are an illustration of living WITHIN your means, not BELOW them. Paycheck to paycheck doesn't qualify for "within" in my book either.

I share your dismay at the confusion between needs and wants that can result in that lifestyle. It isn't good for them, and it sure isn't good for those of us who end up paying their share when they go bankrupt or die owning. (Not to demean people whose bare needs are not met by their paychecks.)

But...if you CAN afford some "wants" along with your needs, it isn't a virtue to forego them merely to generate some smug self-satisfaction about "living below your means".

I feel that the quote celebrates something rather mean and endorses "living small" as a virtue. NEITHER too "small" nor too "large" are good choices IMO. Neither the ant nor the grasshopper was entirely, exclusively correct. The ant had a long, dull life. The grasshopper had a short, joyous one. I'm advocating a blend of industry AND joy, not one OR the other.

chisue,
It appears that we actually have similar philosophies. The meaning of the phrase just differs a little to us. I guess I never associated the phrase with being especially virtuous, but rather simply practical.

I remember being exasperated at my sweet, (late) MIL who, being a product of depression era upbringing had such a hard time spending money on herself. My own mother, even before becoming ill was too often "pennywise and pound foolish".

And, yes, we do treat ourselves to things that are important to us (travel) as long as we can afford to pay for it outright.

Attempting to get my post back onto the original topic - I went to the county website to see how they assessed our house:
"Main Fl 1370
Add. Fl 398 (This is my sewing/office loft)
Heated Basement: 1370
Unheated Basement:
Other:
Garage/Carport:572
Decks: 175"

worthy posted - Square footage in new homes in Ontario must be limited to above grade year round habitable space measured from the outside of the exterior walls...

Measuring to the outside of the exterior walls is the part I find annoying. Our home went from a 2500 sq ft to 2700 sq ft because we decided to go for brick/stone exterior instead of siding (and also 2" rigid foam insulation on outside wall).

The home next to us is about 2550 sq ft (stone skirting up front, but siding for all other walls, no rigid foam insulation on outside walls), and is actually "bigger" in terms of living space :-) (but looking strictly at the numbers, you would think our house is).

So when people ask, I just say its about 2500 sq ft - so they can compare better to what track builders build in the city (homes with siding, not brick or stone). I never include basement space as part of the sq ft. I just state that its finished or not.