Never used Ditra Drain.

I do have a 14' by 16' balcony over a porch, part over living space and part open-air underneath. The living space is a vestibule, though somewhat modified, because the vestibule "ceiling" and the balcony floor structure are not shared framing. I designed it that way for flexibility on my part when finishing off the balcony.

Not sure when I'll be doing that, maybe within the next 4-6 weeks.

Careful with that "lab time". Remember, don't reinvent the wheel. Or mis-reinvent it. Just follow the manufacturer's recommended installation instructions as well as your local code and all should be well.

Are you going to use Troba as well?

I don't even know what "Troba" is!

The current deck is mostly covered but will get really wet with high winds and rain ( North Vancouver gets more than our share of each).

I doubled up the floor joists after using JB"S deflecto and found out my own deck would fail a natural stone installation. So now I have 3" floor joists on 16" centers top with 5/8" plywood (glued and nailed). I will add another layer of 5/8" plywood on top and install this layer as per Schulter's specs in regards to off sets and plywood placement.

I was told by Bob Weins that this new Delta Drain is not approved as a Primary waterproofing membrane. The Jiffy Seal is I'm told. This is a two part system. The dodgy part I'm testing is installing over Jiffy Seal. This looks to be the same as thinsetting over "Blue Skin". I'm liking Mapei's Grani for this I think?

It seems quite new and I can't find any examples online. I love Ditra! I use it on 95% of my jobs it seems. This upside down Ditra seems logical in it's concept and once you understand how it works it clearly shows how grout and setting material is so not waterproof.

We move in - in 2 weeks. So not ready. I need to bang out my daughters bathroom in the next two weeks. Yuch! Got to go.

Mongo. Bill. I respect both your insights and have many questions to ask each of you. Where can I post this "Crazy Talk" "Idea concept" "Etc" within these pages where you might see them and I can cause no confusion to others.

At JB's I was asked to post my "Crazy Talk" by CX in the "Off Topic" section.

Any advice?

Here is a link that might be useful: Schulter's Ditra Drain

"I was told by Bob Weins that this new Delta Drain is not approved as a Primary waterproofing membrane. "

There's no way to seal the seams. At least there's no practical way that I can think of when looking at the structure of the product.

I'd have to think it over before using it in a freeze climate. Especially one as wishy-washy as mine, with repeated daytime thaws followed by night freezes.

I'd also be concerned with the tile sounding "clicky-clacky", hearing that hollow sound you get when walking in shoes on some floating wood floors.

Probably needless worries, but that's why I pay myself a decent wage.

"Troba" is a drainage mat that Schluter calls for when using Ditra Drain over a living space. It goes on top of the waterproof membrane.

I don't know of any "crazy talk forums". I'm down to about 2 forums, but pop in on others when requested. didn't someone post about a "Hot Topic" forum here in G'Web? Not sure what it's for, but I thought it was for off-topic discussion.

Now you have me more concerned!

Thanks Mongo.

I'll call Mapei and Cusom as well and get two more opinions on this install.

I'll snap some pictures of my deck and post details. I have planned a nice detail (I think) to waterproof this weak connection point.

We do get crazy weather extremes like you here as well Mongo. What would you suggest as a built proof install.

I plan to die in this house and we plan on never moving. I only wish to do this once and don't mind leaving my deck covered with tarps until I understand the best install technique.

Troba is a drainage mat that gets used under a THICK bed (mud job) installation. Although this is the first I've heard of this Ditra drain, it sounds like this does the same job as the Troba, but under a thinset application. That's about as much help as I can be with this, because as I said, this is the first I've heard of it.

EPDM is my first choice for waterproofing over a living space. To tile over it I'll then use a drainage mat like Troba, then a mud bed, then thinset and tile.

Just as Bill wrote, Troba goes under a mud bed, think of Troba as the weep holes in a clamping drain. The open structure of Troba allows water that gets into the mud bed to percolate down the slope of the membrane.

If wood is desired, then sleepers are set on the membrane and deck boards are screwed to the sleepers. Or duck board sectionals (pallets) of some sort can be set on pedestals.

If pavers are desired, then the pavers are dryset on pedestals.

Or if you want to be Mr. Eco, then put soil on the EPDM and plant grass. Have a nice sod roof, literally and figuratively "green."

The tile stuff above is pretty much the same specs that Schluter has for Ditra Drain; plywood, then membrane, then mud bed (or some other thickness of material), then D-D, then thinset and tile. The D-D just doesn't appeal to me. It seems superfluous.

If the balcony is not over living space, then you can just use Ditra over cement board over ply. I don't believe Schluter recommends Ditra as a primary membrane over living space.

For waterproofing over a living space, EPDM is the best in my opinion. Keep asphalt-based materials away from it. Don't ever use tar paper as a slip sheet. And it's very easy to detail posts with cured/uncured boots.

I never set sleepers or pedestals directly on my primary EPDM membrane. I'll use scraps of EPDM as pads between the sleepers/pedestals and the membrane.

Thanks men.

I have not done a thick mud job in over 6 years. I don't even work with that plumber and tile guy anymore.

I am limited to an elevation gain of only 1 3/8" to make my deck meet my finished living room and kitchen levels.

I had planned on using Ditra from the start but now see the error in this oversight. I'll get those pictures, call the men and check in with city hall and obviously do so much reading.

Like I have mentioned before I don't like trying things out for real the first time. I have laid 1000's square feet of Ditra and about 200 square feet of EPDM (ages ago) in total. Seems to me if I go the EPDM I'll screw up my finished heights.

Thanks guys.

I'l keep you posted. Maybe I'll post this on the UK tile site - perhaps them "Lads" have more expierence with it. Maybe it has been launched there earlier...

Ah, the elevation gain restriction does restrict things a bit.

Don't let me talk you out of Ditra Drain if it's a product that will work for you. Personally, I just don't use it because I don't see it as being a solution to any of my problems.

If it works for you in this installation then most certainly have at it.

Have you looked at NobleDeck membrane? It's similar to the NobelSeal membrane that is used in showers (fleece-coated CPE), but it's designed for outdoor "deck" use. It can go over CBU installed over doubled up ply, which sounds like the direction you're headed. It can be the primary waterproofing membrane over occupied and unoccupied space. And with its fleece surface, it's a tile-on membrane, so it won't blow your elevation details.

I'd just recommend you check and see if there are any freezing climate issues with this type of installation since it'll be thin- and not thick-bed. Things are usually more restrictive over unoccupied space like a balcony that's open underneath, versus using it over a living space below. With open space below, the underside of the decking is exposed to exterior freezing/hot temperature and seasonal swings in humidity, those variables can cause more movement of the plywood decking than you'd have when there is 70-degree climate controlled HVAC conditioned living space below.

Regardless, their website or their tech department could clarify that for you.

I meet with Neville this morning and reviewed with him my install plans. I have asked for permission to finish my deck this way;

1). Green EBoard set and tape'd over my 5/8" exterior grade plywood

2). Jiffy Seal by Protecto over top of the Green EBoard (installed with primer and following all their specs) - Need to confirm if Green EBoard can be used or if I will use "Wonder Board" by Custom.

3). Ditra Drain over Jiffy Seal - Thins set??? Grani Rapid ??? Primers???

4). Slate over Ditra Drain

5). BBQ over Slate

6). Steak over BBQ

Excellent, keep the follow-ups coming. I use a lot of Protecto membrane for window and door flashing, it's an excellent product. But I've never use the JiffySeal version to waterproof a deck. I never looked into the idea of thinsetting right on the JiffySeal.

Can the jiffyseal, with or without primer, be set right on the doubled up plywood decking?

Why don't you just call Schluter's engineering department. They REALLY want to talk to contractors that are doing outside tiling jobs so that the products are specd and used properly.

I gave Dave a Call at Custom Building Products and asked him his advice on my exterior deck project and he offered up a simpler installation.

Off course when I went home to look it up I forgot the product's name.

I'm thinking that I like the idea of Cement Board or Green EBoard as the secondary underlayment in replace of a second 5/8" plywood layer.

Anyone feel strongly one way or the other. I waiting to hear back if the Jiffy Seal 140-60 can be applied over Green EBoard but it's spec clearly state it can be used over concrete or plywood.

It also specs that the Jiffy Seal 140 - 60 can also be used for Shower Pans.

Has anyone tried this? Interesting concept.

If a shower had a pre-sloped mud base and this was allowed to cure for 3-4 days and then covered with the Jiffy Seal 140 - 60 this could be a simple install method - if these products are available locally and cost effective.

I wonder if this is allowed???

If it were up to me, and this had to be a thinset application, my spec for building a deck, whether or not over a living space, would be to build it with the framing pitching 1/4" per running foot away from the main building. Two layers of subfloor, one being 3/4" T&G (could be advantec, but prefer EGP), glued and screwed to the joists, and the second being a MINIMUM 1/2" square edged layer EGP (exterior glue plywood), and I'd prefer it to be 3/4", screwed just to the bottom layer (NOT into the joists). Once the plywood is in place, I'd use Noble's Nobledeck sheet membrane to completely cover the wooden substrate, including flashing up the adjoining walls about 8-12". The tile would then adhere directly to the Nobledeck, and siding would be reattached to the bottom of the walls over the flashing.

Thanks Bill.

I asked two separate techs at Protecto Co about the option of either plywood (5/8" mentioned) or 1/2" CBU and they both spec'd CBU as their preferred choice.

I looked into a couple of different installs and like the concept of this Jiffy Seal 140/60 slash Ditra Drain combo.

I'm all in on this install and now wonder about the best thinset to install the Ditra Drain to the Jiffy Seal. I found an indpendant review of the Jiffy Seal 140/60 which recommends modified thinset - Schulter spec's Non Modified...?

The deck framing is pitched 1/4" per foot and the joists are double 2"x10"'s on 16" centers spanning 14'.

I spec'ed the souble layer plywood because it'll give you structural support, while the CBU won't. Additionally, I have enough faith in the Nobledeck that I know the plywood won't get wet, so I'll stick with my original recommendation.

"I'm thinking that I like the idea of Cement Board or Green EBoard as the secondary underlayment in replace of a second 5/8" plywood layer.

Anyone feel strongly one way or the other."

Do you honestly want an armchair engineering opinion on a ceiling that needs to be waterproof from some folks on an internet chat board about bathrooms?

Even if someone used these NEW products from Different manuf. and they didn't fail immediately, there would be no long term reliability or performance data to go on.

Honestly John, this is bordering on the same crap you complained about the Depot experts doing. I know you are not "telling" people to use this hairbrained idea specifically, but YOU ARE putting bad ideas in their heads.

If you want to re-invent the wheel go ahead, but stop leading folks around here astray.

Antss you appear to offer only expeirence that has been gained from reading online and you appear to have no working expeirence with your hands. I might be mistaken but this is my read on your advice over the last 6 months. Antts remove your mask and show us your company or your home. I'll post pictures of my home and my company is online for the world to see.

Antts come out come out - where ever you are.....

I'm sure you are well read and can offer much - but I'm looking for advice from 'Soliders' not 'School Teachers'. I will ask you again to refrain from offering up such useless posts.

If you think this is another "Hair Brained Idea" you are clearly working in a fog and can't see the light through the "Hate that blinds your Mind".

I had 20 sheets of CBU delivered yesterday. I will start the perimeter installation on my deck late today...

Hey Bill.

I called the techs at Protecto Company and both suggested CBU as the second layer.

I have doubled the floor joists and not worried about deflection.

I plan on setting the CBU - tapping the seams and then covering with

The Jiffy Seal 140/60.

The Noble products seam bullet proof. I am waiting for some more training here about these products from them. I am following in love with their Noble Membrane with every new test I preform...

Bill if I set the CBU with Laticrete's Platinum thinset and roofing nails is there any cause for concern with the nail heads pushing back out? When we did the torch on above this deck on my master balacony the roofer added small squared (6"x6") over the decks fastners first and then did the torch on after.

This seams like a ton of work but might be prudent???

Any advise?

JW

Quite frankly,. I don't care what the techs at Protectowrap recommend. I'd rather have the strength to the deck. It's not like the tile will be bonding to the plywood, and that's the ONLY reason to have cement board-- as a bonding surface. But this is your deck-- you do it as you prefer. As for the nails, I'd be alot happier using a collated screwgun and screwing down the subfloor layers, including the cement board, if that's the way you're going. Screws don't back out.

"I have doubled the floor joists and not worried about deflection. "

John, remember, it's not just the deflection of the floor joists that you have to consider. You also have to be concerned with the deflection of the plywood between the floor joists.

CB offers nothing structurally, so you're tiling over a single layer of 5/8" plywood. And this had better be tongue and groove ply.

Remember, the Protecto tech department is telling you what they'd most prefer their material to be set over. A lot of times individual tech departments don't have a big picture attitude, they're just concerned with their specific product.

I highly recommend you use two layers of ply. If you want CBU over that, that's fine. Don't forget to use thinset between the CBU and the ply.

" I found an indpendant review of the Jiffy Seal 140/60 which recommends modified thinset - Schulter spec's Non Modified...? "

Again, two different companies with two different sets of specs. Or an "independent reviewer" who doesn't have a big picture? Who knows. But I'd venture that you know enough from your Ditra/Kerdi experiences about how Schluter feels about polymerized thinsets being starved for free air.

Nails versus screws. There's no way I'd ever use nails under a membrane. Framing dries, nails pop, and it just takes one to ruin your deck. I recommend you screw this deck down in order to not screw this deck up.

Thanks men!

I didn't like the miss information and want this to be a tank.

The first layer of ply is 5/8" Tongue and grove. Glued, nailed and screwed.

I will return the CBU (David will love this!) and lay a second layer of 5/8" plywood screwed as per the Schulter spec. Would you men suggest another T&G or standard plywood with a 3/16" spacing that is filled with silicone???

I took some pictures and will up load them maybe tomorrow.

The girls bath really took shape today. I used some scrap Kerdi and set a 4" band onto the framing and set it to the tub flange with Kerdi Fix. I installed some Green EBoard over this Kerdi and built 4 niches. The one back niche I plan to back light! Another thread.

Monday we will start laying plywood and prep for Jiffy Seal (I wish i had the nice screw gun). The safety specs on the primer are crazy. I bought a new full face mask and after reading the safety measures would not use this product indoors (There goes the shower pan concept! - less testing...).

Thanks again.

JW

John - you've been totally incorrect about anything you've speculated about me. And, if we get in a measuring contest I guaranty you'll come up short!

Re: the hair brained iddea, seems you are heeding Bill and Mongo's advice so it ( the h.b.i.) wasn't so good in it's orig conception after all, was it?

Look, all I was saying was there are plenty of systems from companies that have done the engineering and research AND provide a warranty if you folllow their instructions.

You'd mentioned using Schluter's stuff, did you ever consult their tech dept? What did they say about how you should detail the assembly?

Seems you want to use a whole bunch of different products that may be great by themselves but haven't been tested in an assembly exactly as you have dreamed upor are putting together on the fly. Why would you want to do this when there are proven systems out there already? For the fun of, great. But this is not a recipe for long term success, it may very well work beautifully, but the odds are stacked against you. THIS IS MY REAL BEEF. People will read this stuff and go off half cocked feeling "empowered" because the "next Mike Holmes" said it was super terrific. The only reason I can see is arrogance, appears you feel more clever than the degreed engineers these companies pay to design and test this stuff.

So again I ask you: why not use an entire assembly as detailed from Schluter if you want to use their ditra-drain?

There is miss information every where online.

Mistakes in cross sections and install advice easily found online. Differences of opinions around North America depending on whats used locally and what's viewed to be the best vary depending on the posters expierence and prior training.

I have been doing research. I had Bob Weins from Schulter at my house - on my deck and asked him the best install. I called Dave from Custom Building Products as well. Surprise surprise I got two different opinions. You (Antss) yourself suggested I call the tech departments - I did.

These men and their companies position themselves for market share - each feels their products are the best. How do they install? Best to ask the solidiers who do it every day I think.

Is it wrong to discuss new ideas? Should we all just quote specs?

If you read everything blindly and follow all the rules - who pays if it goes South? I have found mistakes online and have contacted the companies directly about their over sights - I'm working with two of them as we speak on revisions for their installation guidelines and specs. What if I just followed their advice? What if their advice is wrong?

Internet advice is hit and miss. I have found and studied most of the top internet posters advice online and there is among these men differences in opinions - items for debate.

I do not think of myself as "The Next Mike Holmes" and do not think I'm smarter than the engineers at these respective companies. But why do they keep talking to me? Why do they send me drains for testing? Why is it that one drain company all ready started working on new drawings? I know - I started the ball rolling...

I want to discuss these points online. I think people enjoy reading about their options and hearing from Contractors who actually get paid to install these products. I don't like change and need to understand the science on a new product and then test it before I own the install.

Ditra has been around for half my life. I have been installing it for more than 7 years. Why are the install specs slightly different in the UK than North America? Makes me wonder... I seek and crave knowledge. I love what I do. I'm am trying to be the best!

I have not build many exterior decks. I am educating myself on the finer points of exterior deck construction and have always seek'd out the best advice online. My own drawings where approved from the District of North Vancouver for my home renovation. Why is it that the framing spec'd for my decks construction would fail a deflection calculation for exterior stone? Why is that? Code is code but this code many times is not good enough by my standard, Mongo's, Bill's and Mike's...

Why can't we all build better. Why do we have to build the same way all the time.

I have been teasing Mongo that I can't find out any information on him - but reading his posts for over a year I know he knows his stuff. Bill and I have battled online and yet he still offers me help. This shows his character and the simple fact that he tells me that he does not care what the techs tell me and that he uses this and that and this is the best way to do it - is exactly the type of "Solider Advice" "Solid Advice" I'm seeking.

I bet Bill and Mongo have seen between them hundreds of exterior decks over living space. I build fireplaces and bathrooms. i am not a spec builder or custom builder. I'm a small fish in the Bathroom Fireplace renovation game.

I have never built a home, a large addition or any project over $250,000 to date. Now I'm building my "Palace" "My Castle" "My kids home".

Is it wrong to want the best for them? Is it wrong to seek opinions and advice from seasoned pro's? is it my fault that someone reading this thread does not do their own home work? I take my advice my spec sheets and I go to city hall - I ask my inspectors is this OK. Sometimes they say No and sometimes they say Yes. Most times they say "yes" if it is installed as per factory spec.

I'm returning my CBU and installing more plywood. I have used Ditra in 95% of my projects and am sold 100 percent on the uncoupling properties of Ditra. I read in Fine Homebuilding years back about a builder in Chiacgo who switched to Ditra and his call backs went from 15% down to 1% in regards to tile installs. I was like wow! I researched Ditra. I paid for training. I talk to Bob from Schulter 2-10 times a year and have every year. Bob is a great guy. So is Dave. These men help me but I cross check their info with you men online. I have never had a callback since I switched to Ditra and started complete waterproofing of my projects. Not one call back in over 6 years!

This is my process.

If you want me to write these ideas in a new section of this site please suggest one for me.

If you have a disclaimer you would like me to add to every post in this "Gray" area please forward it to me to attached to my posts.

If you are so confident of your abilities and your finished projects please post some of your work for us to see. I know I would respect your advice more if I could view your work shots and know for sure that you are in the trades and can offer me first hand expeirence. Perhaps you can offer me some insight into my channel drain installations. Perhaps you would like to test one of these babies for me? I will stick my neck on the line and offer up my insight - I have a thick neck and am not afraid of looking foolish online (this I have proven I think in the past time and time again).

I am far from perfect but strive to be the best in the industry. I produce job after job of 5 star finished projects. My home will be my best work.

I'm looking for help - I'm looking for knowledge - I'm looking forward. Things should be built better, stronger, greener. This is something we can all do.

Something we can all do better.

Would you men suggest another T&G or standard plywood with a 3/16" spacing that is filled with silicone???

Go with square edged plywood for the second layer. Three things. First, you don't need to go as big as 3/16" joint between the sheets. 1/16- shy 1/8" is good enough. Secondly, you don't need to spend the money on silicone. Its only function is to keep thinset out of that joint, and stay pliable enough to allow for expansion of the plywood. Any cheap latex caulking will do fine, for less than half the price. Lastly, BE SURE not to screw into the joists. Use 1 1/4" screws, just for this reason-- then the most that could go into the joists would be just the points of the screws.

As for antss' post, all he's saying, John, is don't reinvent the wheel, especially when it means you'll lose warranty coverage. You're talking about putting your "palace" together. The very last thing you want is for it to fall apart a few years down the road. I agree with what you're doing, with reference to checking out several different systems. But don't mix and match. Not until you're very familiar with each system (as in used each one several times) and know what you yourself would be willing to warranty, even if the manufacturer won't. A perfect example would be when I do Kerdi steam showers and use ledger boards, I'll seal up the screw holes with Hydroment's Ultraset, instead of Kerdi-fix. I'm every familiar with both products, and although I know if there were a problem, I'd be on my own, I have enough confidence in both products and knowledge about each one's useage that I'm willing to warranty it myself. Until you're to that point, you're playing with fire, and that's all antss is trying to convey to you.

Bill thank you for your help - I do need it and want your advice.

You have offered me good advice on these matters and I respect your opinions. If you are telling me that Antss intentions are pure and he is only trying to help others then I should remove my blinders as well and cut him some slack.

I have been asking all of you where to post these concepts and ideas of mine so I don't rock the boat - I like to discuss things with my peers - my masters - my competitors. These topics can only be discussed with a select few online as most have no clue what I'm talking about or have no interest in building above code. This is my outlet - my creative space.

I am much happier learning and reading about installs than watching TV. Much happier doing some testing on a Sunday morning than watching Football. These tests are fun - my kids help - sometimes their friends.

I take this research very seriously as I like you stand behind my work and do not like losing my vacation fund because I screwed up on a job. This has happened more than once and to many over the past 8 years. I have been much more careful over the past 4 years and it was a client that turned me onto Terry Love's sight - which in turn lead me to JB's and all the rest.

I still believe most helpers on line are not in the trades and value the opinions of master tradesmen (with references I can check) over someone I know nothing about.

It is safe for me to reason that you know Antss better than I. I believe as well you would be on him like me if he strayed. I will cut him the respect you are showing him.

I will test the affects of the primer on both Silicone and Latex Chaulking before installing the Jiffy Seal 140/60 over my new 5/8" standard plywood set with a 1/8" thin spacing between sheets.

The deck as mentioned above has double 2"x10" floor joist on 16" centers with a 14' span. There is a solid blocking course at 7' and I plan to add in more blocking at 3.5' and 10.5'. I love blocking I feel the difference it makes on my jobs but my discussion on the subject has meet with much critisim over on the JB site by CX.

Lets say this is your house - your deck.

Would you add in the other blocking courses or would you feel the second plywood layer is more than enough. I can imagine the deck can hold 20- 40 people with ease (drinks in hand).

I have some concepts as well for the expansion strips. I also have a catalevered portion of this deck that ties into a staircase. I worry that the stress point for this added deflection (when some one runs up or down the stairs) may be transferred into the 1/3 span point of the decks joists.

Is there a good website that I can look up that discusses these deflection points and that can offer up more reading on the subject?

I need to scan my drawings and get these plans up so you all can see my deck and the issues this slate deck may or may not create.

I believe as well you would be on him like me if he strayed.

At the risk of hurting your feelings, you're no one special. I'll jump on anyone who gives out bogus or extremely confusing advice. Doesn't matter if I know them a long time in real life, or just met them on line. No difference.

I'm not perfect, either. I expect no less from my peers.

Is there a good website that I can look up that discusses these deflection points and that can offer up more reading on the subject?

Try Mike Byrne's forum. He's an expert in deflection.

Here is a link that might be useful: JLC Tile Forum