I will be purchasing the Inspira and Optima for a kitchen remodel. For what it's worth, I was told by my salesperson that the condensation drying system is superior. He said Bosch uses the passive drying system and it doesn't dry as well.

Most newer dishwashers don't require pre-rinsing. I have an 5 year old Kenmore and don't pre-rinse and it is rare that something doesn't come out clean. I don't run the dishwasher until it is full and that can sometimes take a couple of days.

Egganddart49, Good questions. Can you answer something for me, please? What is passive drying and what is condensation? The Optima was recommended to us and I have no idea what the drying sytem is. Thanks.

Thanks, flower.

Mominthedubc,
I'm not sure what passive drying is, but I'm guessing it's basically a drip dry, i.e., the absence of a drying system! The condensation dry is what Miele calls the "Clean Air" method, whereby room temperature air (colder than inside the DW) circulates through channels OUTSIDE the tub, cooling it. The warm vapor inside then condenses on the inside of the now cooler tub walls, instead of on the dishes. (I found this on their website.) All the Optima models have "Clean Air" drying, as far as I can tell.

Does anyone with soft water have the etching problem I mentioned above?

It's not fair to call passive drying "drip dry." We have three Bosch DW's in various locations, all of which use passive drying (one soon to be replaced by twin Mieles). They capitalize on the residual heat left from the rinse cycle to evaporate moisture. The stainless steel walls of the DW transmit heat more quickly and thus are cooler, leading the moisture that has been evaporated to condense and drain down the walls.

It's not perfect--you're right that the Tupperware has to go onto the drying rack to finish, but anything else is generally quite dry. Advantages versus the active heating element typical American DW's use to dry are 1) lower energy consumption and 2) lower risk of melting or damaging heat sensitive items loaded onto the bottom rack.

The Clean Air just boosts the effectiveness of passive drying by using outside air to further cool the stainless steel walls of the DW thus enhancing what is STILL passive drying.

Etching can happen with ANY DW. Overly soft water, or more commonly, using too much detergent, will etch glass. It's a chemical phenomenon, not specific to any one DW.

I'll give you my thoughts based on what I have read and my experience with my prior Miele DW purchased in 1996 and my current LaPerla purchased in 2006(Kitchen remodel), so this is not to be taken as "official" Miele speak.

All of the models use condensation type drying, however most of the models also use a technique that uses a fan which makes the drying better. The Advanta does not use a fan. It just sits there - thus the phrase passive - it does nothing to help things along. You can open the door and that might help it a bit. The other models use the fan technique, speeding the drying and helping to remove the moisture better. The inspira, Optima and all the models up the line use the fan.

I don't think etching is unique to Miele DW because almost every detergent and rinse aid now claims to have some etch protection agent in it. Soft water combined with higher temps can speed the process. Some of the programs on the Miele DW use HOT water. You can connect it to cold water if you want to because it will heat it to the required temperature. Pots and Pans is around 168F to 170F, Sani cycle is also this hot. Heavy Soil is 150F. There is a program named Normal which is designed to clean most loads. I think it's temp is 130F. There is a china crystal program(Optima models and up) that uses 115F water.

There are other options but you will pay slightly more for them. Starting with the OPTIMA the machines use sensors to vary the water temp according to the soil level. The programs will then operate in temperature ranges. For example if you use the Normal cycle it's max range will be 130F but if the soil level is light the temperature will be less than that. This helps reduce the chance of etching and improves energy usage.

When you get to the Excella and LaPerla these have additional cycles that use lower ranges (104F through 120F) and take less time, but which will still clean a load. Miele describes these cycles as using their "glass care system" - (whatever) - designed to clean but be easier on glass. I used one today on a dirty mixed load and everything came out spotless. These models also have additional sensors which will adjust the number of water changes and match the water taken for each fill to the load size, and will also reduce or increase the cycle time based on soil level.

The built in water softener is offered on the models starting with the Optima. This softener is not like those of the past or the one that was on my prior model. This one measures your water hardness as it is running in and will adjust it only as much as it needs to be, so that you don't get very very soft water being mixed with detergent and hot water.

I wonder if the prevalence of etching has been caused by the way glasses are being made today? Or maybe it's enzyme detergents? Etching seems like a big issue now but I don't remember hearing that much about it in past years.

Pre rinsing. I have never done it. Not with the model in 1996 a G885 and not with this one. I just scrape the food off the plate and load it in. I don't even do a rinse hold and sometime let everything sit inside for a day or two and everything comes out fine. And like aflowerfreak said most new DW don't require you to rinse before you load.

There are others on the forum with this brand and the models you are considering so I am sure you'll get more input.

Wow, you guys rock! Thanks for the information.

OT...sorry egganddart49. Does anyone know if you can add dishes midcycle to the Optima and not have it disrupt the cycle?

Thanks

I added a glass about 10 min or so into a cycle in my Optima jsut this morning and the cycle resumed as soon as I re-shut the door.

FWIW, we've had two etched (?) wine glasses since using the machine (about a yr). I seriously think it happened during the extremely rare times I ran a pots and pans cycle with wine glasses in the bottom rack (not good crystal mind you). Maybe pots and pans cycle and wine glasses on bottom rack aren't a good combo? Otherwise, no problems.

I have the Advanta Miele and don't really have a problem with the drying feature. Of course not ever using the higher end dryers, I don't know how much faster dishes take to dry. It doesn't really matter to us though as we usually run the washer at night so that by the morning everything can be taken out and are dry (except of course plastics and bottom of cups/mugs). The few times I've been in a hurry to get dry dishes, I've had to dry them with a cloth as there may be streaks of water still but for me it was worth saving the extra money going the entry level Miele and probably saving on energy.

The only thing I'm cautious about is that I have a laminate counter top and you're supposed to open the door to let steam out to let condensation occur so drying can happen faster. I don't like doing this as I then have to wipe the undersides of my counter just above the washer before any damage can be done. I find though that I don't have to open the door despite what the manual says.