You can choose to either separate the flatware or drop them on the tray, but really, it takes little extra time to separate them & our flatware always comes out immaculate. It's not tedious, and you can scoop them out to unload very quickly. We love not having a cutlery basket anymore, as there is more space available in the DW for dishes & we never get stuck by sharp edges. I think a salesperson's only defense when attempting to counter the wonderful cutlery tray is to try to make it more complicated & anal than it really is.

There are many justifications for the price difference. We are thrilled with the performance and we don't have the most expensive one, although actually we have two Mieles. We can put anything on any rack without fear of it melting or deforming. Miele automatically softens water for whatever hardness you have. It runs very silently. We can put our stemware in it safely & they sparkle.

We have a Miele (and had a Bosch that happened to be a lemon before that--although I don't hold that against Bosch, it was just a lemon).

Anyway, the silverware tray on the Miele is a bit of a pain. I've gotten used to it after almost 2 years but still prefer the ease of a basket. It's not my favorite feature.

As far as cleaning, it does do an excellent job. It's true about nothing melting or deforming, indicated above. I'd not hesitate to buy another one, but if reviews were good or better on a comparable Bosch, I probably wouldn't hesitate on that either.

I love the silverware tray. It really doesn't take but a second to load. When the kids load, the silverware is every which way and is still clean. I like it because it creates extra room, has a seperate spray arm to clean, and is a breeze to unload. I have a bosch washer and dryer and am an particularly impressed. Miele has a great rep. You probably don't need the La Perla. I have the excella and honestly use only a few functions.

You can't really just compare Bosch's most expensive with Miele's. It's be like comparing Hyundai's most expensive car with Lexus's. Both are really good cars, but the xtra 45k isn't just paying for the name.

Miele's have better (and more expensive components), more refined engineering, more features like a water softener, automatic closing and opening, more wash programs, a better service network ( by a long shot)and leadership that generally cares about their reputation and customer, not just this quarter's results. Or, "when is my USA stint over so I can get back to Germany and the mother ship."

The only thing Bosch has going for it is that it's cheaper, and it's made in the USA, so the "homer" crowd can at least feel better about getting a foreign product. It's up to the end user to decide if they need and want the added features and quality. Miele's don't cost more because their marketing department is better than everyone else's. They have the goods to back up the fancy look and technology they spout on about.

I'm not knocking Bosch, I have 2 of them myself, but the Miele units we have are way better especially if price is left out of the equation.

Your sales weasel has an adgenda or is ignorant because he failed to point out the Miele DW's are available with a cutlery basket just like everyone else's. Did he ask you about your washing habits? Will you do a lot of leaded crystal or fine china? What is your water quality like where you live? What kind of cabinetry will this DW go into, and are they new?

I have a Miele DW and I can honestly say it is is the best purchase I have ever made. I am constantly staggered at how clean everything comes out, how quiet it is, and the build quality is fantastic. LOVE the cutlery tray - it really is a breeze to load when you get used to is and even easier to unload. Also, I think the cutlery comes out way cleaner than with a basket. I will never buy anything but a Miele DW again. I also have two Miele vacuums and cannot live without them. I made the mistake of buying a Bosch Axxis front loader rather than the Miele washer a few years back. While the Bosch is OK I am kicking myself now because had I bought the Miele I think it would have seen me out. As it is Miele have discontinued the 240V washers here now so even when I replace I will not be able to get one like they were back in the day...

The few times I called Bosch for info and questions on my washer and the Nexxt dryer I got idiotic responses that weren't even as good as the info in the user manual. I am dreading needing service.

Get Miele and you will never regret it. I read something once that said: "When you buy quality you only cry once".....it is so true.

Good luck with your decision.

Tina

Sorry, amend my post to say, I have a bosch washer and dryer and am NOT particularly impressed.

i haven't yet used my optima, but am looking forward to the cutlery tray, it makes so much sense, for better cleaning--and it frees up valuable lower rack real estate. all the posts i read on it say it gets some getting used to, but you do get used to it. my GC had never installed a miele before mine, and commented on how HEAVY the thing was. (which i take as affirmation that it's a good piece of old-school machinery, with sturdier components!) ...and i read a post a while back about someone taking their miele DW with them when they moved houses--how often does that happen?

Ok so I had this exact problem about 2 weeks ago. And everything I have read leads me to believe that like most things Miele though a good company isnt worth the price increase. Basically people seem to want to justify their expensive purchases so they get great reviews. Don't get me wrong Im not trying to start a fight with the Miele people. We went to a showroom that had the La Perla II and the Integra 800 hooked up and was allowed to use them. Here are the results that I determined most from the event.

-The Bosch is quieter, ok, ok its not important since even the Miele is darn quiet, but you can look up their dB rating and Bosch is 42dB and Miele is 48dB.
-The Bosch uses half the energy a year than the Miele at 190kwh vs. 351kwh.
-If you get an integrated one like I did the Bosch's running light shines on the floor vs. into the counter top.
-The Bosch gets the same crap clean that a Miele will.
-The menu and controls are on par.
-Both Baskets can be lowered and raised to accommodate larger dishes on the bottom.
-Now for the opposite, like most have mentioned the Miele finish inside is slightly nicer.
-The Miele will pop open by itself to exhaust steam for the drying cycle.
-Supposedly Bosch customer service comes nowhere near the class of Miele.
-The Miele does have the important cheese cleaning function.

Mainly it comes down to this, both get dishes clean in the same situations. Miele will do a slightly better job of drying dishes. They are the best of the best and for me it comes down to the silverware tray vs. the basket yes the Miele can have a basket, the PRICE $$$$ and the options I felt I needed. Im not going to lie to you I wash china 5 times a year so racks for that arent super important, and though a water softener may be nice for some people it has caused others nothing but problems if you already have a household water softener. The Miele does have 2 more wash cycles but it is a proven fact most people after a couple months wont use more than 3 modes on their dishwasher or laundry washer.

I will say I have had the integrated Bosch Integra 800 for about a week now and I love it compared to our old DW but Im sure I would have loved a Miele but I also saved $800 on a perfectly competent DW.

Lastly I think the statement about a Hyundai vs. Lexus is a moronic analogy that is exactly the problem with this country is the perceived quality in items. Hyundai Genesis for 45k has a higher fit and finish than a Lexus LS460 it also has a higher quality rating by C&D, Automobile and JD Power at a savings of $40k. People just want things that other people perceive as nicer, or else a Hyundai would be in every Lexus owners driveway.

I'll echo everything that scuppasteve says EXCEPT that the La Perla is 41 or 42db - not 48db. I think that Miele's lowest end line is 48db or so. La Perla is their top-of-line.

That said, a couple of years ago, at a showroom where both the Bosch 800 and the La Perla were hooked up, to me, the Bosch sounded quieter (remember that both are/were supposedly rated at the same value). However, they were both so quiet (and *neither* was SILENT) and my ears are certainly no precision calibrated acoustic lab equipment so I always suspected that either my perception, the hookup or something else about the test conditions probably drove the results as the signal to noise ratio was monumentally low. Suffice it to say that both were inordinately quiet and to chase the point on the noise issue is more about bragging rights about ones particular machine than anything that could materially impact your experience wiht either.

Secondly, i have to wonder about this monumentally stupid move from Miele: the DW pops open to vent into the kitchen???? I.e. to vent hot moist steam over and around the cabinetry? This is a feature?! How about a fatal horrific flaw? I've read of people doing this voluntarily and thought they had developed a collective case of hole-in-head disease to risk damaging their cabinetry, the wood on their cabinet doors, or the seams of the cabinets in order to ensure that not a drop of water might remain inside to mop up. It doesn't matter how expensive a DW might get - it is still a fraction of the cost of replacing cabinetry in the finished kitchen. Subjecting wood, plywood, laminate, foil etc. to such conditions will have punitive consequences. And now the DW forces this experience?! I would NEVER buy a DW with this ridiculous "feature".

I thought "Pasta" and "Cheese" were silly but amusing but I could see the marketing advantages of having such features somewhere in the line-up. But the self-popping drying is ridiculous.

So the poor Bosch is a Hyundai now? LOL! It seems to devalue everytime the subject pops up. It had started as a Beamer to Miele's Merc. Then dropped to a Honda the next time I looked; is now a Hyundai. Wait a question or two and it will be a Dodge (that is one of the brands slated to be axed, yes?). ;-)

And Antss, Bosch-USA is located in South Carolina, yes? Well, I'm afraid it isn't just the Germans counting down the days to their return to the mothership from there - any good NorthEasterner will tell you they share the sentiment over any visit South.

To the OP, Miele's cutlery tray is awesome. Their service is reputed to be excellent (no personal experience as my Miele vacuum cleaner and washing machines have never needed either). That said, while I really like the Miele washing machine, my mother's now 10 or 12 year old Bosch washing machine does an even better job esp. on the whites - I take all my white shirts along when I go to visit her and have them washed there. And I'm very contented with my mid-line Bosch DW - washes brilliantly.

Whoops forgot to flag the tongue-in-cheek comment with the necessary, associated snicker. So, please, the comment above about north-easterners and and their Southern trips should be read with teh appropriate ;-) attached.

scuppasteve, no need to use language such as "moronic" to describe other people's opinions and arguments. We are here to discuss appliances for goodness sake, so please try to ratchet it down a notch.Sscuppasteve is wrong on a couple of his figures. The La Perla Energy Star usage is actually 298 KWH/yr, not 351 KWH/yr, and the noise level is 41 db (see UK Miele site), not 48 db.

If we're going to compare Energy Star numbers, let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Energy Star tests the products "normal" or default wash program. The La Perla default wash program heats the water to 130°F, does the Bosch also heat the water to that temperature for the claimed 198 KWH/hr usage? The Miele has a Quick Wash option which uses 71% less energy than the Normal program.

There is no doubt that you pay a premium for the Miele brand, just like you do for other high end brands such as Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Apple, Bang & Olufsen, etc. I have a La Perla, but I've also played with one of the higher end Bosch units. The Bosch interior is built very cheaply -- I actually cut myself on a piece of plastic at Lowes when I was looking at it. I can only imagine what sort of mechanical components are used in the places we can't see or touch!

I can only speak to my La Perla (first generation) experience. I love love love the cutlery tray. Unlike what was stated before, you cannot just dump your flatware into the cutlery tray and expect it to come clean. If you do that, you'll end up with dirty flatware. However, the time it takes to place flatware into the cutlery tray is saved when you unload it, so it's a wash.

As far as cleaning ability goes, I can't find anything better than the La Perla. Everything comes out clean, but you also have to make sure you load things correctly as with any dishwasher. The Miele trays aren't designed especially well for accommodating bowls -- it's better for plates and small cups. We are mostly bowl people in my house, so there was an adjustment there.

Personally I would not buy a Bosch given my issues with its build quality, but I have friends who love them. I'm thrilled with my La Perla!

"Secondly, i have to wonder about this monumentally stupid move from Miele: the DW pops open to vent into the kitchen???? I.e. to vent hot moist steam over and around the cabinetry? This is a feature?! How about a fatal horrific flaw?"

I don't get the above. We have a Bosch and if we open it after a wash you get steam. And it can blow in your face if you don't expect it.

The cabinets above don't get damaged because they are shallow relative to lower cabinets.

We will be buying Miele exactly because we want to get everything dry using the auto-open feature. We moved from an American DW to Bosch and my wife has complained about it for the last 6-7 years. So while I don't enjoy spending so much on a DW, it is preferable to an unhappy wife :).

I only had room for an 18" dishwasher in my kitchen. In deciding between Bosch & Miele, I was also intrigued/concerned about the Miele cutlery tray. On the one hand, it seemed like a brilliant way to clear up extra space in the bottom rack - especially important when you've only got an 18" d/w! OTOH, would it be too much of a PITA to separate out the silverware and lay each piece into its separate slot?

Well, I went for the Miele, and I'm delighted with it. I'm the laziest person in the world, yet I find using the cutlery tray to be no big deal. And all the silverware comes out spotless - no danger of spoons nesting together and not getting clean. (Everything else comes out spotless too.)

My model doesn't pop the door open. :-)

Yes, it was egregiously expensive - especially in contrast to my other appliances, which are decidedly *not* high-end. But I love it and am glad I sprung for it. For anyone who needs an 18" d/w, I would heartily recommend it.

For anyone who has room for a full-size (24") d/w - if you don't need the extra space in the bottom rack, I don't know if it's worth that much extra money - I'm sure the Bosch gets dishes clean too. I'll just comment that the cutlery rack works really well.

I second what Buffalotina wrote. I love my Miele DW, and I love the silverware tray. When I load I put forks, spoons and knives together and unloading is a snap, and, all of my flatware is spotless clean and dry. This was never the case with my old Whirlpool DW w/ basket. For me it was well worth the investment.

s steve- before you call people a moron you'd better get you facts straight. This is a well versed crowd.

Hyundai is not the crappy little Asian car come that came here in the late 80's. They have transformed into a really good co. in a short ammount of time. That said they DO NOT have the build quality of Lexus, It's da#%^ned nice but not AS good. Steve- do you have both cars to compare?

You are WRONG again on the J.D. Power stuff too. As a brand Hyundai trails Lexus in ALL catagories from initial quality to reliability. The Lexus LS got their best car award for it's class, the Hyundai hasn't been rated far as I know. Care to share your review/data/article/ect??? Can't speak to C&D as I'm not a fan of theirs. Some of the Euro rags give more objective reviews in my opinion. C&D is easily swayed by the new kid in a fancy suit.

I made no mention of whether on not the xtra stuff is worth it to the end user. Only that their is more to the higher price than markup and snob appeal. America is great because you have a plethora of choices. There's nothing wrong with going for a low price quality item, or a medium one for that matter. But, just as those people don't like being chided for their "lower" choice, you shouldn't harp on people that CHOOSE to spend more money on better products and services. The prod/services may not be as good a "value" as low/medium ones, but "value is a much more subjective measurement.

The Bosch factory is in New Bern, North Carolina. Out in the middle of nowhere past the boondocks. There are mostly newbie and lifer mgrs. there, best I can tell. The upper escehlon at BSH headquarters in SoCal is climbing the ladder. At least they get awesome weather and good airport 30 min. away.

The auto door was a pet project of one of the Meile owners who liked to close the DW with his knee during demos. Someone suggested "wouldn't it be neat if" and the rest history. I "think" the open to dry was an offshoot of that idea and can be turned off. I wouldn't personally advise opening the door to dry but I know some that do it.

If you buy feature for feature the Miele's aren't that much more expensive than Bosch. At the top of the range if you buy "slot position" the Miele's way outpace the Bosch because they load them them with do dads and programs and charge accordingly. Most people don't use the stuff , but some like the notion that it's there if they want to. If you factor in the added German labor cost, and shipping and duty and taxes on the Miele, one might conclude Bosch was raping it's customers.

The problem with America today is ignorance, not consumerism. Lucky for us, both are curable.

There are many folks who love their Bosch dishwashers. I am another person who got one of their lemons - and it was one of their higher end machines. It was gorgeous. It was quiet. It didn't clean.

Had multiple techs to the house over the past year and a half - the only thing they agreed on was that the machine was in fact not cleaning properly.

But others absolutely love their Bosch dishwashers. Given the divergent experiences that folks are having with their Bosch dishwashers I am beginning to wonder if Bosch has quality control issues. I verified it wasn't improper use, wrong water type, etc. in my case.

The next bit is the funny part. I couldn't stand another holiday with hand re-washing stuck on food so my guy pulled out the Bosch on Friday and threw in a 1985 Kenmore as an interim machine until I pick something else.

Have to laugh. Darned if that beastly old Kenmore doesn't crank out immaculately clean dishes in 40 minutes - just 20 minutes when I pulled out the racks for air drying rather than using the air dry cycle (hot or cold on the machine). Everything comes out spot free and there are no rinse aid health concerns because it doesn't even have a receptacle for the stuff, LOL.

I'd go for the Miele. Boo on my Bosch which is currently sitting on my back porch.

I second sshrivastava's comments about Miele's loading issue other than the cutlery tray...

"but you also have to make sure you load things correctly as with any dishwasher. The Miele trays aren't designed especially well for accommodating bowls -- it's better for plates and small cups. We are mostly bowl people in my house, so there was an adjustment there".

I read about the learning curve mentioned in several posts regarding the Miele and it is true. I purchased the Excella which like the LaPerla has the most flexible baskets and still loading can sometimes be a challenge for me.

I love the way the Miele cleans, but I would've preferred the American style baskets. I recently had to buy new dinnerware and specifically looked for a set that did not have the now popular small, but deep and tall cereal type bowls. Also very thick pottery type plates were out too.

I have a Bosch Integra 500 dishwasher and love it. It cleans very well, is very quiet and is simple to load. Granted it does not have the impecable fit and finish of the Miele (I was looking at the Inspira series), but I could not justify the extra cost. If you can afford it, the Miele's are great machines. But the Bosches are not that bad either.

I don't get the concern over the cutlery tray. Honestly it takes but a second to load. If you have a big pile of silverware, it may take an extra minute, but if you load after each meal it really is just a matter of sliding the utensil between the plastic seperators.
More of an adjustment, for me, was getting used to the european style baskets. I expected more available space particularly in the middle rack. It was a matter of getting used to it and changing my loading pattern.
I love my new miele excella. You will probably love either brand because if you are like me it will be a huge upgrade from what you are using now.

Miele's silverware tray means it takes slightly longer to load, but it is much quicker to unload, plus you don't have to worry about being poked. Plus, it is very, very convenient for items too small for a regular rack. We have an 18" Miele and love it.

If I were shopping for a *regular* size DW, I would fight the embarrassment factor and haul frequently used items (such as bowls, serving bowls, mixing bowls, mugs, various glasses including everyday wine glasses, and plates) to the showroom and see how they loaded in each brand. One manufacturer's rack may be a clear winner for YOUR needs -- or maybe it will be a wash. But if your favorite bowls or new oversize deep octagonal plates don't really fit, wouldn't you want to know?

We have a 4 y.o. Miele Incognito. The silverware tray makes it much easier to load IMO and is handy also for sink mats, small gadgets, sponges, scrubbers, Cuisinart discs, bottle caps, container tops etc. All those are thrown on where they fit around silverware. The tray holds way more silverware than a conventional basket by far.

That's the main reason I will now buy a second Miele, this time an Optima. I'm looking at that because I don't need the complexities or expense of La Perla. Optima has a redesigned second basket now more friendly to bowls and mugs, a Turbo wash that's quicker than other cycles, the china/crystal cycle that I need and seems ideal for my purposes.

No need for me to consider another brand but Bosch is also excellent, quiet and certainly less than La Perla though not necessarily that much less than other Mieles.

You'd do well with either. If I decided not to go with Miele I'd look at Bosch and likely at F&P dish drawers.

We've been using a Bosch dishwasher for the last 7 years. We installed it because the GE that came with the "newish" house sounded like AirTran taking off. We gave the GE to my little sister who had a 20 year old DW and she was delighted to get it, noise and all. Other than the recent recall notice on our Bosch, we've had no issues, it runs so quietly that most people don't even know it's running and it gets the dishes sparkling clean. We also have a Bosch front load washer and the clothes come out cleaner than with our old GE tub type washer. I guess it all depends on what you wind up with and your usage of the equipment. Oh, and I wouldn't say that New Bern, NC is exactly in the sticks. It's a fairly large town with a rich history.

Cat - NewBern might be rich in American history and have a lot of people around, but it's still "in" the sticks.

What is it, 100 miles to Research Triangle? It's not on an Interstate, and it's at least 150 miles to an International airport. Even Charlotte doesn't have whole lot of European flight choice and I don't think many/any are direct.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-sticks, but on the corp. elevator the remote office is not floor you want to get stuck on very long.

$2100 for a DW? My last home had a Meile when we moved in. I had no clue they are that expensive. My cheap Whirlpool now cleans fine, no better or worse then the Miele. Me, give me the $300/400 DW. These appliances will all crap out in 10 years anyway, so I can buy 5 DWs for your 1? I will take the difference and save that money. I am suprised high end stuff is still selling.

Why would you be surprised that high end stuff is still selling? Downturn or not, there is still demand for Porsches, Jaeger-LeCoultre watches, Loubouotin shoes, French Laundry, and Romanee Conti wine. Perhaps less, but there's always someone still willing to take the plunge.

That doesn't mean you can't be happy with a Kia, a Timex, a pair of Aerosoles, Applebees, and Two Buck Chuck from T Joes. But just because you don't want/need/appreciate Tom Keller's cooking doesn't mean that someone else is wrong in doing so. There is rarely (never?) one right answer to any choice.

pete p ny I beg to differ - I very much doubt that my Miele DW will "crap out" in 10 years, athough a lesser built brand may very well. I would rather have a really good appliance that lasts longer, works better, and is nicer to use. I also don't want to fill up landfills and consume resources by replacing cheaper ones that do not last.

"...Two Buck Chuck from T Joes"

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Trust me. I tried it.