I'd like to know this, too. We also plan to start our build in the spring. Have you put together your budget yet? It has proven to be quite a headache for us. It's coming together quite well, just slowly. I guess I'd better get used to that, b/c we plan on doing a good deal of the work ourselves.

No one can give you percentages, ballparks, or otherwise. The money you save or lose is solely up to you on how much effort and time you are willing to give researching, educating, and knowing the steps to a succesful build. There are so many variables and every build is unique with it's own individual ups and downs due to many factors. There are some good owner builder sites, and books for a start. Educate, research, and do your homework long before you even enter the planning stages.

Many variables. Ours would have been more GCing it ourselves because of the financing costs and because the subs actually quoted us A LOT more. (I compared the same subs with our GC). GCs who hire regular subs get major discounts. I even had to resort to using my maiden name just to get subs to show up for take-offs! GCing it ourselves, 189k hiring a GC, 137k. Aggravation saved, priceless (though, not all of it, it's still a PITA). Note these prices donÂt include the interior work past the finished drywall stage, that we are doing ourselves, though the regular bank doesnÂt know about it.

KAT

It can be substantial......IF you do your homework! There are two prices you get from subs....Consumer and GC pricing. Quite a diff!! You HAVE to be sure to get GC pricing or your house will end up costing more.

Amanda - We recently started working on the budget and pricing things. There are a few things that we want to price out several ways before we decide which option we'll actually use. I know the final actual cost will be more due to waste material and goofs but we need to know what we are getting ourselves into before we breakground. I'm glad your budget is coming together.

Sierraeast - Others certainly could share their information with me if they choose to do so. I ask the question with the understanding that there are indeed many, many variables but it doesn't hurt to get a feel for what others have experienced. I agree that research and self-education are very important and have an impact on costs along with many other things. In our case, I use to be a Project Coordinator for a local custom home builder (never built the same house twice) and am familiar with what all goes onto residential construction and the nitty-gritty details. I have been researching the topics that I want/need to know more about and will hire out some items that are beyond my ability or desire to learn.

Kimberlyinva - Thanks for your information. That's very interesting and surprising to know. I have many local subcontractor and supplier contacts that know me from when I worked in the custom home industry. I'm sure they will not pull that game with me. I'm sorry to hear that they did with you but understand their logic (lower cost for higher volume customers). Thanks again for sharing your information.

Robin - You are absolutely right. I called today to get prices on light fixtures. I talked to a sales person that I rarely dealt with in my former job and didn't tell him who I was. When I told him the lights were for new home construction and we were our own GCs (he asked who it was) he automatically told me that he'd give me a contractor's discount. I had planned to ask for one but wanted to see the non-contractor's price first. I will also ask for contractor's discounts for everything - some I'll get, some I won't but I'll at least ask.

Thanks for the responses so far. I look forward to reading more.

I know every area is different, but I found around here that suppliers were willing to work with us and gave us better pricing than contractors, usually 10-15% below contractor price, sometimes employee pricing, and sometimes just plain dirt cheap. Throughout it all I was very surprised, and sure to say thank-you correctly to each of them that helped us so much.

As far as what you could save by GCing your self, it's hard to say, but I dare to bet it will be more than you think if you're careful. Builders/GC's play a very important role in the homebuilding industry and their expertise is invaluable to most, and they earn what they are payed. However, deciding to not use a GC is not an insult to them. it's merely a choice that can save you a lot of money, or cost you a lot of money, so educate yourself.

I spoke to 1 friend who hired a project manager (NOT a GC) at a fixed rate, and is building for about $350/sf. The bids from GC's on their project had previously come in at $450-$500/sf, so they went this way. The project manager had access to the subs, but I suppose doesn't have final responsibility, so therefore charges less, I'm assuming. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If you consider your time is not worth anything and don't take into account the headaches, the frustrations, potential divorce, etc, etc, then I think the majority of builders charge between 10% and 20% for a mid-to-high end custome home. This is not pure profit as the builder is running a business and has the typical expenses that go along with that.

Now take into account that the builder will not only most likely get better pricing than you do for the exact product and/or service (YMMV depending on again how much time you put into this part of being a GC) but most likely the builder will use lower quality/cheaper products than what you will personally pick out. And given the same sub (i.e. same quality work) they typically will work for less w/ a builder they know they will get repeat business from versus doing a 1-time deal with a homeowner/GC that they have no experience with.

My guess is that the majority of people that GC their 1st house the overall costs end up being equal if not more and takes 2 times longer or more than if a good GC was used. Again YMMV.

The above statements just deal with GCing.

The DIY labor question obviously depends on the skill sets you have, the time available you have, and on the laws/regulations for your location.

A very, very generalistic approach/guess for a mid-to-high end custom home is that 40% is for labor, 40% is for materials, and 30% is for the GC, local jurisdiction fees, architect, interest, etc. The above adds up to more than 100% as most people that GC go above the original budget and beyond their timeline. If you can keep it to only 10% over the original budget you have done good. Again YMMV.

We are GCing our build and while we definitely saved money in total it is hard to say how much was GC money and how much was DIY money. Also, my husband works 2 days a week away from home and spends all the rest of the time at the job site. If he had to quit a job to be on the job site any savings would be very quickly consumed.

We're very happy with our situation. We're on budget and on schedule but we definitely don't see the GC side of things as saving huge amounts of money.

Related to what others have said, we actually got some great prices on subs because as our own GC we hired local subs, traded services with friends etc. We found that through a GC there was no room to negotiate the subs but it may depend on the individual GC and your connections.

You have a budget, you are going to spend your budget, ultimately you save nothing. However you may have two very different houses at the end of spending your budget.

I find most O-Bs actually pay less for materials than most GCs, and this is because GCs shop based on quality, price, and service, and probably only deal with one or two suppliers. O-Bs shop based on price point alone, and they tend to be very agressive shoppers using the Internet and multiple sources. In my area, you can take your lumber bid into BORG and they will beat it by 10% (and then slap a 10% off coupon on top of that - woohoo you get some real savings), obviously beating any prices your framing contractors are getting from their lumber yards. But then you also get BORG lumber (lumber from the dedicated yard is generally much better), pay for delivery, BORG doesn't perform quantity takeoffs based on the plans, BORG doesn't pick up excess (now if your quantity takeoffs are good then pickup doesn't matter).

Understand that in some cases you get to deal with the idiosyncracies of the suppliers. I have a great custom cabinet maker, but to get a kithcen takes at least 11 months, and that kind of lead time isn't going to set real well with a GC. He saves a bunch of money and his quality is excellent, but you get to deal with the small shop, get in line and wait your turn. For an O-B perhaps this is inconvenience you are willing to risk, I can't see too many GCs accepting this.

Subs are a different issue entirely, but understand that there are subcontractors out there that don't work on new construction either, there are even subcontractors that don't work residential. As an O-B, you might be surprised how many are willing to work for a quality build project.

Most subs will tell you flat out that builders are there bread and butter and take presedence over o/b's so it's important to be on top of your scheduling and get them lined up well ahead of time when possible. Many factors cause delays, though w/ the weather, subs taking longer on other projects, supplier holdups, etc.

Our color coat for the exterior stucco was scheduled last oct. The stucco guys landed a huge commercial project putting us and others on the back burner. It's too cold now even w/ claims they work year round, i asked them to reschedule when the weather warms in the spring.

I fully understand subs giving builders first priority, it's just disapointing when they have you scheduled and break it for a newer project.

I GC'd my own because I wanted control and flexibility more than anything. I had used a builder before and was very frustrated by the resistence to and absurd pricing for anything non-standard or slightly custom features or fixtures. I did use a paid consultant with local connections so I believe I got good subs at good prices. And I did as much myself as a guy with a full time day job could. I'm sure I saved some money but not enough to have made more than minimum wage for my time. Even so, I got what I wanted and enjoyed every minute of it.
If your primary reason is to save money and you have no passion for the build process itself, limited patience or no desire to get dirty, no desire to realize at 7:00 pm on a cold dark night that somebody (you) needs to screw down the sub-floor overnight because the tile guy is coming in the morning (or the ability to just deal with it if you frooze doing it using your truck headlights and the guy didn't start the next morning afterall).....you are better off hiring a good builder.

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the well-intentioned advice and suggestions but that's not what I'm asking. I hope that I don't sound rude because that's not my intention at all. Let me clarify my questions in case that's where the confusion started.

But first, since I'm knew to this section of Garden Web, let me tell you a bit about where I'm coming from. I have a background in residential construction and know what it takes to build a house (multiple houses at the same time in different stages of construction) in addition to building multiple condos concurrently with the custom homes. I worked as part of the company team to get it done and therefore know the construction process, how much we upcharged to gain our profit, which subs did quality work and which ones had room for improvement, etc. I know that GC-ing myself has potential for costly mistakes and I fully accept the risk.

What I don't know and what I'm asking is:
For those that got GC quotes before GC-ing your build yourself. . . and doing some of the labor yourself. . .
1. How much (percentage wise) did you save from the GC quote.
2. How much of the labor did you do yourself rather than hiring out (because that's one of the many variables that will impact your savings).

I believe this is the way you would calculate your savings as a percentage (correct me if this equation is wrong):

[(GC quote) - (your actual cost)] x 100 / (GC quote)

Again, I'm not trying to be rude and I apologize to anyone that takes it that way. I just think that my question was misunderstood which caused this thread to get off track. I'd like it to get back on track.

Thanks in advance to anyone that's willing to answer my 2 questions. :0) Have a great day!

Flash, you need to find an Internet discussion board that is composed of primarily O-Bs, you will find a much better answer to your question ;-).

we had a HORRIBLE builder and still have no doubt that we could have done a better GC job than he did. we were only the third house he'd ever built, including his own, so only his second for a customer (but we didn't know that going in, he lied to us and I didn't take time to research him properly) and so he was a nightmare. We had to oversee everything during the build and contractors came to us because they couldn't reach him half the time and he was childish and a major PITA with a terrible temper.

We paid him 15% of the cost of our build but he made more money than that because I talked to some of the contractors and they had budgeted more for things, like our flooring than it ended up costing, but of course we still had already paid the flat fee to him and he made the extra plus the 15% off of that. and then he decided to do some things himself, like installing the hardiboard on our dormers, so he saved money there.

I don't know how much savings he really got from subs because he hadn't used them much. only the electrician and the framer had done his other two houses for him. everyone else hated him from those jobs and he had to hire new subs for brick, plumbing, HVAC, trim, etc. I don't know how much discount he would have gotten from them since he was new to them. he did get a discount at 84 Lumber on our lumber package, but seems like we'd have gotten that anyway by hiring a framer with an account at a lumber yard.

Next time, we'd do the GC work ourselves. Even if it took two years, instead of the seven months our build took, it'd be worth it. Then we could only blame ourselves for mistakes and not have to suffer through dealing with an idiot with a temper who was paid way more than he deserved.

I'm not sure how much it cost us more to have a GC, but it was at least the 15% he charged. Almost everyone else, as I said, was new to the builder so I don't think he received any sort of quantity discount. Plus, all the subs hated him. So many of them refused to deal with him and nearly walked off the job many times. It was only because of us that they said they'd stay. They knew we had final say over the money - all payments to the builder went through our bank account and we had to approve them and sign off on them - so they knew they'd get paid from us if they hadn't received payment before the final payoff. They all knew to talk to us.

And of course working with a GC isn't supposed to be that way. You're supposed to be able to stand back from the process and have no contact with the subs and the GC do all the hard work and negotiating and answer all questions. But that wasn't the case with us.

But at least we have the joy of knowing he hasn't built a house since ours was finished in April. We saw him the other day in town and he said, "oh, I'm just doing a little remodeling work now, the market is slow, blah, blah, blah." Poetic justice that he can't find work. he even put his own house on the market for less than he told us it cost him to build it and he still can't sell it. looks like he's hurting financially. normally, I wouldn't wish that upon anyone, but he is bad at his job so he deserves it. he shouldn't get work when there are plenty of good builders out there who can do the work instead.

kcmo - Thanks for your suggestion. I've been reading here for close to two months (I think) and thought that I saw more O-B folks posting and non-O-B folks. I was actually really surprised to see so many people GC-ing for themselves.

I'll look for additional forums as you suggeted. Thanks, again.

We OBlt our house. We did atleast 90% of the work ourselves. We came in about $145,000 below the estimates and that is the honest truth. According to our Insurance company we had $147,000 in equity the day we moved in. We purchased quality materials at great prices through local suppliers. As an example, I got a plumbing quote from a plumber I know from the field for the rough-in. His quote; $8,000 and it was very reasonable. Our price doing the work ourselves and buying the materials from the same supplier: a hair over $2,000. Electrical rough-in quote from a friend: $2500, our price doing it ourselves: $900.

It was very tiring, it was a everyday thing. I worked everyday at lunch that I could, every night, all weekend, every holiday, and vacation for 22 months. Meaning I worked about 40 hours a week on the house roughly, thats 3500+ hours, so lets call it an even 4000 hours, thats about $36/hour, or a little more than double what I make at my regular job, so it was worth it.

We are o/bing. We got a price from a builder at 450s.f which put it at $561,600. Right now we are around 175k with the only purchases left being deck framing and decking, joint compound and paint for the interior, kitchen cabinetry,hardwood floors, and minor plumbing shutoff valves,etc. We have the spindles and newel posts for the staircase but need the tread and riser as well as hand rail materials. We have enough cedar to mill out our baseboards, casings ,etc.We have our current living room full of all the appliances and lighting, throw rugs as my wife goes for deals when she sees them, so our current house is a little hard to navigate right now. This has afforded us to get quality products at reasonable prices even w/ the inconvienece. We will need the plumber for one or two more days, the electrician to do some of the finish electrical, and the stucco guys to apply the top coat of the exterior.

We work on our build in the summer months and it sits from oct - may. As far as how long it has taken to this pont hourly and what our average wage would or will be, i could care less. I have to keep track of time in my business. Both my wife and i are having a blast w/ only a few minor hiccups along the way. Really dont care what we are making or losing wage wise, simply having fun w/ our retirement home. My wife comes up and helps when she can get leave in the summer. Last summer we both came up 6 weeks out of the summer as we had several subs on the house at that point so i didn't need to be up there full time. The 2 summers before i was up all summer and will be this summer. Chomping at the bit to get back to it.

Our estimates to build our 3094 sq ft two story home are 320,000.00. It inlcudes 930 ft of travertine 1000+ ft of 3 species of hardwoods, granite and custom cabinetry in kitchen and master bath. Guest Spa. Full Brick veneer. Our plans and spec were appraised at 500K+. So far everything has gone smoothly outside of the framing. The framing is going ok but we've had to fight through some noise from the foreman. The craftsmanship however is first rate. I've heard KYgirls story in different versions many times. There are good builders out there but NO ONE is going to look after your own interest like yourself. That may sound like a Rumsfeldism but it's the truth. I can't tell you how many websites, books, subs or supply houses I've looked at to get quality products and labor at the most competitive pricing available. Sure we've had to ship our interior doors from TX but we got solid pine two-panels pre-hung for 119/a piece. We'll finish them ourselves over the next couple of weekends. We're only a month and a half into it so I may have a different take by the time we move in but so far I wouldn't trade the experience.

We are OB'ing. Our bids for GC work came in between $250-425 sqft. If we were to pick we would have taken the gc at about $285 sqft. We are hoping to come in around $125 sqft, but we have a ways to go, so that may creep up. It is a lot, a lot, a lot of work and stress. I am dying to get dried in.

sierraeast - I envy you that you do not have to build in the cold winter. My toes are still numb and I only spent 3 hours on site today (back at work after xmas vacation).

I am racing (and losing) my wifes growing belly. Kid #2 will be here in early april, not sure if I will be done by then. (=

I would do things different next time (mainly a less expensive and less complex house), but I will or would do it my self again no doubt.

Hi mikeyvon, You might envy, but i have a lot of respect for you and others out in the elements. It does get chilly here in the mojave. I work part time hours inside and out as i am somewhat retired, but generally start late in the day these days unless i get behind schedules. I have paid my dues mostly working outdoors in residential construction when i was young and full time until recently having a carpentry & repair business.

You'll no doubt be dried in soon, i know that was a great feeling on our build. Continued luck and send pics when you can. We are finally getting a digital so hope to post some pics in the spring before i head up full time on our build in the summer. My wife and i plan on going up for a week in late april/early may.

We built our home with a cost plus contract. So you could infer that you could save the 17% "plus". But, that would depend on you being as effecient and knowledgeable as the GC in question. Personally, I would have had slippage in simply knowing what sequence things should/could be done, knowing what subs do the quality/type work desired and in dealing with codes and inspectors. YMMV.

Jim

You just want a number...fine, use 15% and hope it's right.

The problem in trying to answer this question is that it is very unlikely that you could actually find an apples to apples comparison.

If I got GC bids and then OB'd...then I really don't know what the GC cost would have been for sure. Would there have been suprises?...things I thought were standard but were up-charges. Would he have used the exact same materials and level of finish I ended up using? Was his quote any good?...was he taking a bath on it because he did a sloppy job of estimating?

How likely a OB is to get the same sub pricing as a builder depends on how big the builder is and how hungry the subs are.

With the big guys like the framers and drywall guys, I think I got builder's pricing. For rough lumber, brick and trusses I probably got it too. I am only building one house but $30,000 is still a big order at the lumber yard. But for the smaller items like door hardware, light fixtures, bath fixtures, tile (especially tile) etc. it is hard to get the real good pricing at the local suppliers. You can have the subs get your materials but then you may be looking at mark-up or carrying costs. For door hardware and a lot of other stuff I did much better online than I could locally.

I've been around enough O-B boards to say that in general the concencus is that it's 15% if you do the GC's job (managing) and not much else, more if you get dirty.

Keep in mind, if you are living now in a $365,000 house that every day you take longer than a GC costs you $80 or so in interest.

So say you build a house the GC wanted $500,000 for. You do it for $425,000. But it takes you 3 months longer so you are up to $434,000.

Sure seems to me thouigh that knowing what you already know, you'd have a better idea than any of us?????

Thanks for the additional responses. That's some very good and interesting information!

jca1 - I am very impressed by what you posted. It sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing and were determined to do it well. I bet you feel fantastic and proud now that it's done and you did it mostly yourself. Bravo!

logicalone - My experience lies in working for a company that builds custom houses and condos by hiring subs for the hands-on work. I have no experience in building a whole house on my own using partly subs and partly my own labor. The costs involved are different in each type of build and also in each project and depending on the people involved.

I'm just curious about other people's experiences and results. I know that my results won't be exactly the same as anyone elses but that doesn't mean that I can't be curious about other people's results.

My DH is in the construction business and we considered OB because we knew contacts for more than 80% of the project. However, we went with a GC for many reasons the most important being that DH is a busy man and couldn't be onsite all the time. As it turned out, the GC's experience was invaluable. Our home was custom designed for us and thus many unexpected structural questions came up which someone not building residential homes everyday would not be able to handle. Knowing subs and knowing the inside and out of house construction are two different things. OB houses usually take much longer and as logicalone says, that costs money in interest.

Our GC used some of our subs and some of his. His subs had no problems with schedule and quality of work because they have worked with him numerous times and know what he expects. If they don't perform, he doesn't use them again. It's a real headache if you hire a sub who does inferior work. If you're not in the "know" about subs, what will be your basis for hiring them? Lowest or highest bid doesn't ensure quality work.

You might want to look at the recent post about a lien being placed on a GW member's home. That is another area which you need to be fully educated in before you try to OB.

An o/b that from the onset educates, researches, and does their homework on the building process as well as the building sciences can perform as well as a g.c. Granted experience is the best teacher, but structural concerns can be addressed by an o/b if they have done their homework and know the technical aspects involved in their build.

No interest costs if you are building out of pocket.

Regardless of hiring a g.c or o/b'ing, anytime you rely on others there is risk. It's crucial to make the time to seek out quality subs. When you find them, you need to be dead on w/ your scheduling and be ready for them. If not they will fly by you on to the next leaving you back at the drawing board and delaying your project. Subs cater to g.c/builders for good reason, they are their living. Important as an o/b'r to recognize this and be ready for them to get in and get out so they can get on to the next project. There are unforeseen factors that cause delays other than scheduling conflicts that cant be helped such as the weather no matter gc or o/b'r.

"No interest costs if you are building out of pocket."

Only if it truely was just sitting in your pocket (or in equity in your current house). It is still money that could otherwise be earning interest in a bank accout. You can pay interest on a loan or you can miss out on earning interest...the only difference is the former is deductable and the latter isn't.

"Only if it truely was just sitting in your pocket (or in equity in your current house)."

Also true, if you use your monthly income to pay for the ongoing build.
I plan on o-b & DIY as much as I can and I plan for it to take up to five years. Building my home in a glacial pace but always having 100% equity, no construction loan, no bank breathing down my neck, no rush, no deadlines. My current home is next to the future one and paid off. Almost all my income can go to the new build. Because I am earning this monthly, there is no interest cost when I am building out of pocket.

Our build is mostly off of expired bonds that have maxed out interest. Works for us.

jrldh, one thing to consider that might not affect you are inspections. In our county, you are required to have at least one inspection per year. On a slow build it could be a concern depending on how your build progresses/falls in place. Our county does give a one time extension on the yearly requirement. In that sense, on our build there is that time frame from the county.

I don't want to grind the point into the ground but it doesn't matter if it's fresh income, expired bonds or savings...it's still going into the construction of a house you can't yet live in instead of into the bank. I'm not saying in any way don't do it. I OB my house and will probably do it again someday. Just don't ignore the cost of tying up money that could be somewhere else. It may or may not be money that's currently working for you...but it is definately money that could be.

logic, understood and great point(s). It's my understanding that building out of pocket is actually more of a detriment on most builds because of resale/investment aspects, re-fiy'ing,etc. It's the avenue we took simply because this is our only build and plan on being in forever barring any of lifes trips. Thought it was a good way to kill the bonds so we wnt this route. You do what ever works for you and hope for the best be it right or wrong, hopefully right.

To put it simply, we did not 'save' ourselves any money by GC'ing the build. BUT...we do have a heck of a nicer home than if we had used a contractor.
Why? Because what we DIDN'T have to pay a builder for his 'commission' went directly into the quality of materials we used instead. Got alot more bang for the buck.
As far as how much hands-on we did vs subbing out? Not much. I did some specialty plaster work in three rooms. My DH installed all his media room equipment after wiring rough-in, but we had a sub do everything else in the house for security, intercom, audio, etc. For us, it was cheaper and quicker to hire subs to do all the building of our house because it would have taken too much time out of running our business (although I was still running around like a chicken with it's head cut off), thus more income lost overall.
A headache to GC? Yes. Worth it? Absolutely. Every time I walk through that front door...

just keep in mind that you add on a LOT of work to yourself by being your own GC. some people handle it just fine, others it totally blows them away. ultimately you are responsible for everything.

you CAN save a lot of money being your own GC, then again if you screw up alot, and you WILL screw up some, you can cost yourself a lot of money.

it is not a decision to be taken lightly the first time around.

you will always have to be available during the work day. if a sub has a problem you may have to be able to go on site quickly. a lot of stuff can be handled on the phone, but you will spend a lot more time on site during work hours than if you hire it out.