Kitchen remodel - higher end

DSK1967

12 years ago

Hi All,

We're remodeling our kitchen, and are leaning towards higher end appliances. Nothing has been purchased, won't need to do so for 3-4 months

Would love the GW community opinion of the following:

1) FRIDGE - 48" - we're leaning towards subzero ....

2) Cooktop - 6 burner gas, leaning towards Wolf ....

3) Wall oven - this is tricky. Dont think we need a double but like the combo micro-convection/wall oven. But we might be convinced to get the drawer microwave and possibly the double oven. Don't think we need a warming drawer. Totally open on brands.

4) Dishwasher - ideally quiet, stain sensor, and big

I think that's it ..... would also like thoughts on where to buy, I'm in NJ, would love to get floor models if the quality is there, does anyone have experience with that?

Thanks all!!

Dave

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Comments (8)

deeageaux
12 years ago
Do you want a cooktop like this ?

Or a rangetop like this ?

Dishwasher: Do you want a standard 24" dishwasher or a larger commercial type 30" plus dishwasher?
elyash
12 years ago
Deeageaux has shown you pictures which differentiate a cooktop from a rangetop. This is an important distinction. Look at knob placement. Also with the rangetops you can get open burners which have flames beneath rather then around the perimeter of the pans. With both, depending on brand you can get a grill, griddle or french top. What appeals to you? Thermador makes a gorgeous induction top with a 13 inch hob.
I think Gaggenau makes beautiful and functional wall ovens - my friends have ranges and love them. However, if that is not an option, from reading posts and researching wall ovens, I think electrolux is the best brand, but I don't actually have one. (I am opting for a professional style open burner range.) Kitchen Aid and Bosch, which people seem to like for baking and roasting have had reliability problems. Dishwashers - miele, bosch and kitchen aid seem to be liked. I have Bosch and it works quite well. Newer model dishwashers are being made with filters that catch food; filters on older models grind up the food. I have read that stain sensors don't work well and end up using more water - so you should check that out.
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I was in a similar situation as you not too long ago. I was redoing the kitchen of one of my rentals, but unlike most of them this was a higher end vacation rental so I couldn't just use my usual strategy of asking the appliance place for the cheapest matching appliance package possible. I also didn't want to break the bank on super fancy stuff. I decided a good compromise would be a JennAir package. So far, so good! This is based on feedback from guests and my own experiences using the appliances. JennAir's bad reputation comes from Maytag's bad years. I will be honest, at the lower end of the pro range segment a lot of it is about looks and other than increased BTU in some cases, performance will not be _that_ much better than consumer level ranges. Most people here are all for mixing and matching appliances, and getting the best from each manufacturer. While for the most part I agree (and that's what I did in my own kitchen) I think there are times when appliance packages make sense. Don't get me wrong, the package Deeageaux proposes will beat out any single manufacturer in terms of performance, but in case you aren't the type to get stuff like this from eBay and want a single source, I'm throwing in a good word for the Jenn Air package. I especially like the range and fridge. The dishwasher is fine but I like my own better. I would second Deeageux's recommendation on the fridge if you are going to go with different manufacturers rather than a package. I have the model below that in my own kitchen (PYE23) because I was unimpressed with the hot water dispenser on the Cafe. At first I was really excited about the idea of it using heat rejected from the fridge to heat the water, but I realized it didn't actually do that, and after trying it out myself I learned that after pressing the hot water button you had to wait quite a while before it actually dispensed because it heats the water on demand. I really like my Profile model though. I would never buy a Samsung fridge again. Been there, done that. You can read online rankings/reviews until you're blue in the face but there's a lot you'll never learn about an appliance until you try to repair it. Let's just say I was astounded by the stupidity of whoever thought the thing up. I could have designed a better fridge, and I am far from an expert. It was constructed in a way that made it difficult to work on, and service information was difficult to find. I'd say if you don't want the GE Cafe or Profile counter depth french door, look into a lower end GE or Whirlpool. Always look into the service aspect before you buy an appliance. Even if you don't repair your own appliances like I do, the easier the technician's life is, the easier your life will be.
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"Plus I always tell people how great my refrigerator is- and now I am not so comfortable saying that. " I feel that way about my Electrolux oven. It functions so great but people have trouble with the electronics and I have had trouble with the blue enamel in the past. Jenn, there are so many considerations with ovens now. whatever you choose read the manual very carefully to get an idea how it works and so that you can be aware of any quirks. I have used gas and electric overs for more years than I care to admit. I currently have an Electrolux wall oven and Wolf DF range. I actually like my range burners because I can have super low heat on all the burners but would strongly consider BS too. BS had a lot of issues when we bought our range but they seem to be fixed now. Gas and electric ovens are different in the nature of the heat and in the features they have. Some people say they see no difference in baking but others say that they do. 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I hardly ever use it for the full time though. The problem is that it is marketed to even the heat out in the oven and decrease cooking time. The fan produces a air current that increases the rate of heat transfer and increases the rate of evaporation of water from the surface of what you are cooking. This can decrease cooking time anywhere from 0-35% but increases browning. You can decrease the temperature on some things but it is by trial and error rather than an arbitrary 25F. Some ovens create air flows that create hot spots, especially on all convection modes or other modes with high speed fans. Some manufacturers try to mitigate this effect by using fans that periodically reverse, baffles or lower fan speeds on some modes. Convection does mix the air so the heat comes in from all directions which may or may not be a good thing in baking. Most recipes with cakes were developed with heat from the bottom so it can change the way a cake rises but yet many still report good results with using convection for cakes. I don't use convection until after the cake has risen and I want to have more browning. I just don't see it benefitting a cake when it is rising. Some if not most electric ovens have modes that direct heat from the top or bottom more or even the back on an oven with "true" or "euro" convection. You have Gaggenau or Miele that have a huge amount control in this but there is a big learning curve with your recipes and bakeware. Many have bake and roast modes. The down side to this much control in the oven is that it requires computer boards. Some ovens have had issues with these. I would get the longest lasting extended warranty you can get from a reputable company if you buy an electric oven. Some things to consider. -range of temperature on each mode, with and without fan -is the fan switch just on and off or are there different speeds I use the low speed fan most of the time present on the convection bake mode. This is very hard to determine sometimes as it is rarely in the manual. -lighting and visibility, especially with pans in the oven -increments of temperature 5F or 25F, also how close does the oven stay to the set temperature -proof, delay start or other modes? -How much usable space, not cubic feet, but look at the racks. In many ovens you lose space by the convection fan in the back. Many are not that deep. Even with ovens marketed with flat backs, they bring the whole back even with the fan. Also look top to bottom, how much room between racks and top to bottom rack for height. I can see this being very important if you bake big cakes. -a lot of people like rolling racks but I like to have regular racks too. I move them around all the time so don't like to fool with the extra time you need with the roll out racks. -Look at the pre heat time. It can take anywhere from 7-30 minutes to bring an oven to 350F and then another 20 minutes at least to stabilize and fully heat the oven. It is very important to read the use and care booklet before you buy to get a feel for the oven and any quirkiness that may be a deal killer for you. Also search this forum especially about the Wolf M and the BS electric oven. There are many people who like their BS electric ovens but the on and off only for convection would be a deal killer for me. Also it seems that the convection fan comes on every time the elements come on according to the manual. You can never shut the convection all the way off. There is no delayed start which I don't use often but when I need it, I need it. These things may be unique to me but you find them out reading the manual. From the manual. http://static.appliancesconnection.com/attachments/D5aaaa6cc12303.pdf The most important thing would be to cook in this oven if you can and see how it does with you cake recipes and pans. Wolf M is an example of tinkering with a perfectly good oven and going backwards, IMO. They still haven't resolved the 10 year blue enamel chipping issue either. They had a great set up with a dual fan and in the name of being different with tower fans, they now have complaints of uneven baking which you can see on their promotional video on supposed "even baking" The only way to avoid that browning on the sides is to keep the pan out of that airflow. If they had not taken away the convection bake with slower fan, you could see if that would help. I would go with an older model of Wolf if I were to disregard the blue enamel issue and choose Wolf.
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kaseki
12 years ago
I have a 48-inch SZ 632 built-in side-by-side. It has cabinet matching door panels. I love it. It maintains each side's temperature very closely. The cabinet depth makes it easy to see what is lurking at the back of the shelves. The 48-inch width makes up for the volume loss of the cabinet depth.

It has not had any refrigeration problems.

I found two deviations from the standard installation necessary. I had to tweak the mounting hardware of the upper panel (in front of the refrigeration equipment) so that the panel was truly in the same plane as the door panels when the refrigerator was aligned.

I constructed a more robust top attachment in place of the SZ-supplied anti-fallover scheme. It is helpful in keeping the refrigerator from moving when the doors are opened against the gasket force. Note that the freezer side pulls a partial vacuum when the door is closed, so opening the door shortly after closing it requires significant pulling force.

I think this model has been replaced by another model number.

I also recommend that at any wall space in which a refrigerator/freezer of this sort or wall ovens or both are installed that the cabinet depth be increased from 24 inches to 26 inches to allow room for electrical boxes, power cables, and air space, as well as adjustment depth to get all door panels to be the same depth from the wall.

kas
kaismom
12 years ago
If you are interested in flush installation of ref/freezer, you should be looking at integrated models.

Subzero makes a line of integrated ref/freezers. They are designed to be absolutely flush with the cabinets at 24 inch depth. They can actually be inset from the side panels if you chose.

If you get the Subzero built in models, there is a flush mount option but it is not quite as integrated looking as the Integrated series. (700 series) KDs working with high end appliances should know this stuff inside out.

Much of this has to do with the hinges and where the air vents are.

Miele and Thermador (Bosch/Siemes/Gaganeau) also make integrated ref/freezer.

You can do mostly integrated with Liebherr.

Kitchenaid/Jenair products are not quite as integrated as the productions mentioned above. There is a line that tries to get there for the most part.
weissman
12 years ago
You should also consider Wolf ovens - they are very well thought of.
athensmomof3
12 years ago
I can give you my two cents on what we did. No appliances are installed yet so I can't give you a review on the performance.

I made my choices based on reviews on this site, comparison to my current cooking environment, budget and aesthetics. This is what I ended up with - we had a 30k budget for appliances and ended up closer to 25k with these choices. . . We have a family of 5, lots of fresh produce/milk/fridge requirements. Freezer in laundry built into cabinetry there which will take most of our freezer needs. In the kitchen:

SZ fully integrated all fridge 36"
Two dishwashers, fully integrated (KA - one lower and one higher end - panel ready but we extended the countertops so they can be flush panel ready)
Hoshizcahi ice machine
Wolf sealed burner rangetop
KA fridge freezer drawers
Electrolux Icon Professional Oven
Electrolux Icon Professional Speed Oven
Miele warming drawer (we wanted a panel and this was the only one we found that would work with the flush inset paneling - also open sides which we liked).

In hindsight, the Electrolux oven also offers a warming feature so a double oven and microwave drawer might have been an option. I have heard negatives from people with microwave drawers about breakage, and the larger drawer was not out when I began looking so it was too short for us (wouldn't fit my Good Seasons Cruet which I microwave for a few seconds each night). . .

Hope this helps!
athensmomof3
12 years ago
I know people on this site favor Bluestar and Culinarian. While they may, perhaps, cook "better" (although I doubt it - google Mark Bittman and see where he cooks!), I was concerned about the complaints also vocalized on this board. We are in a small town and service is an issue. Wolf service appears to be top shop. I have always cooked on electric coil and made due with that so this is a real step up. I didn't want to risk the open burner issue with the repair issues, etc. The Wolf is plenty fine for me. It also was so sturdy and seemed like a workhorse - not planning on replacing it for at least 20 years!
clinresga
12 years ago
I would beg to differ with athensmom regarding ranges. One of the most telling demonstrations of the difference between a professional chef and an amateur came when a friend of ours, a restaurant owner and head chef, cooked for us at his home. He make an incredible meal on a 30 year old gas range that must have put out maybe 5000 BTUs max. And topped that with a perfect souffle made in the oven which didn't even have a door that shut completely.

Just because Bittman can cook on junk doesn't mean that I can. I need all the help I can get, and a great range is a big part of it. No matter how hard you try, you just can't really sear right on an electric coil stove. You can't really stir fry on a feeble 5K BTU gas hob. So BS and Culinarian ranges really DO cook "better" than builder grade dreck. And even Bittman, in the article about his kitchen, says what he dreams of is "A functioning oven, the best possible stove." So just because he cooks on a tiny low end gas stove doesn't mean he wouldn't agree that a great stove makes you a better cook.

Now, I will agree, however, with athensmom, that when we're talking about bluestar vs wolf, that the differences are small, perhaps too small to really make a big difference in how well people cook. At that level, the differences are likely outweighed by other kitchen skills--I'd take a really sharp knife, a Unicorn pepper grinder, and All Clad pans any day over the extra 4K BTU's that a Blustar might put out over a Wolf. So your choice of a sealed burner Wolf is perfectly rational.

Kitchen remodel - higher end

Comments (8)

deeageaux

elyash

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