"...cindylou, imagine if you can what it would be like after all you and your husband have experienced with your MIL if your own children grew up and estranged you..." If I had a child who estranged me, I would not think it had anything to do or not to do with my MIL. I would not think that they owed me a relationship because I tolerated my MIL (maybe I misunderstood what you meant by connecting my MIL into that idea). If my child estranged me suddenly and with no warning and if I asked and they said, "You know", and I truly didn't, I would make the assumption they didn't quite didn't know themselves. That they have feelings and upsets they don't quite understand themselves and that they needed time away from me to work them out. (This is assuming there's no mental illness or addiction. If there is mental illness or addiction, then I do know and frankly, maybe I'm just getting too old, but I've seen the hopelessness and heartache of addiction and mental illness, and I think I'd just be grateful for being cut out). More likely, I would have been told the answer. And I'd accept it, even if it didn't make sense. "Because you wore blue to my kindergaren graduation." Huh? Ok. I don't think I'd argue. I can't imagine arguing with an adult child. They are an adult. I barely argue with them now. My parents didn't argue with me, I never saw them argue with their parents. My aunts and uncles on both sides didn't argue with either their adult children or their parents. It's just not done. I can't imagine it. There are differences of opinion and hurt feelings and misunderstandings and on rare occasions, conflict between adult members of my extended family. Of course there is. But everyone seems to understand a basic rule. I live my life and you live yours, and I can offer my opinion and it's fair if you don't follow it. The person who's business it is, gets the final say. The person who has the most responsibility gets to decide. The person who takes the biggest risk chooses. We are none of us perfect people; but we don't squabble and manipulate and gang up on each other and form one alliance and then another to force family members to do what we want. And we don't stab each other in the back. That's such a bizarre concept to me. And we are very close--without melodrama. There's not a lot of conflict. So if a child told me, "I don't want contact from you because you wouldn't let me go to Aruba on spring break." I'd respect that. I'd figure sooner or later they'd understand. Or if not, sooner or later it wouldn't matter any more. I would absolutely believe that eventually they'd come back. Not the way they were, it wouldn't be the same relationship, but had we stayed close, it wouldn't be the same relationship at 30 as it was at 20 or 10. Would I miss them and be hurt. You bet. But I'd be comforted that I would see them again and focus on the other blessings of my life while I waited. I truly believe that if you love something you let it go, and if it loves you, it will come back. And if it doesn't come back, you never had it to begin with. If after 10 or 20 years there was still no contact, I'd have to face the fact that it's probably for the best. We didn't have the relationship I thought we had; I didn't know them, and we obviously weren't a match even if they have half my DNA. Do I hope to have close, intimate relationships with the families of my adult children? Of course. But I will be happy with any non exploitive relationship my children feel comfortable with. I may want more contact or less, depending on the personalities, but perfection doesn't happen in relationships; it's like tension between togetherness and individuality that has to be worked out in a marriage. When your children are adults with families, you renegotiate your relationship, and if it REALLY doesn't work for someone, you might have to walk away. Sad, painful, but realistic. I have a coworker who is retiring and moving to be closer to her daughter and grandchildren. They are delighted to have her. On a recent house hunting trip she was dismayed that her daughter seemed to expect/demand a lot of babysitting from her. She's not moving there to take on the responsibility of babysitting her grandchildren, altho she does hope to see a lot of them and participate in their lives. Things were tense as she attempted to come to understanding with her daughter. She came back and asked if things don't work out in the other state, can she have her job back. I sometimes in the past had wondered if she's a meddling MIL so much does she talk about her grandchildren. But I see now she's got a life outside them and is not exploiting her daughter's family to fill the emptiness (if any) in her own life. And she's not going to allow herself to be exploited by her daughter however much she loves her family. She sees her standing up for herself may result in a cut off; and I respect her handling of this delicate situation. I'm sure it will all work out, but I can see myself in her place; in any relationship, there's always the possibility that you or the other person will walk away for whatever reason. You may think, oh yeah, you are so philosophical, just wait until it happens to you. Well, like anything, what choices do you have: you either accept with grace or you don't. How does not accepting with grace help anything? The ends don't justify the means. Bullying, manipulating, harassing, yelling...none of that is going to help. If you accept with grace, while you are waiting for the problem to resolve itself enough so the child talks to you again with a willingness to compromise, at least you can still have meaning and pleasure in your life. It also gives you time to reflect as well. It might not be that you did something WRONG, it's just that you don't mesh well. And you can measure in the absence how you and your adult child's family don't mesh and what you are willing to compromise to make the relationship more pleasant for EVERYONE. "Mom, you can never be unsupervised with my kids." "Why?" "Because you are a taurus". Huh? Well, that makes no sense to me. But why jeopardize my supervised visits with my grandchildren which can be wonderful by arguing if being a taurus prevents one from being a good grandma or not. Why fill that time with strife and anger and posturing and demands and righteousness and counter accusations when I can be on the floor playing Candyland and angling for the chocolate swamp or coloring in Barbie coloring books or stacking Lincoln logs as high as the sky. Who cares if DIL is glaring at me when my darling grandson and I are holding our breathes to see if we can make a Pixie Stix teepee? I believe letting them go gracefully gets them back eventually, and if it doesn't, the relationship would have just caused heartache all around anyway, estranged or not.

They are much safer in a stroller. Some people use those baby leashes, but that would be much harder with two of them running in different directions. I agree that they are too young to toilet train - and it's not like you could let them go to the bathroom unsupervised anyway, unless you wanted to fish toy trucks out of the toilet. Is there any reason to think that they may have any mild developmental or speech delays? Your town should have screenings for anyone at risk - and merely being a multiple would be considered at risk most places. The preschooler of someone in my town was able to go to a special needs/integrated preschool, and I think the basis for that was not a disability but rather because his father had died, leaving his wife with three kids under 4 and one on the way. I think the little boy was considered socially at risk. My daughter attended the same preschool, due to her language delays, and it was a good experience for her. Door-to-door transportation, in a van with car seats and seat belts, was provided.

My skids weren't the greatest before my DS was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer at 5 1/2. Yeah, my perception of them is colored by how they acted during that scary time. I started posting here because of it. Silver, lovehadley, psuedo and gerina are right. If my SD36 gave DS7 a tenth of the personal attention, meaning attention directed toward him personally instead of as an adjunct or competitor , my "jealousy" "diappointment" or whatever wouldn't exist. I don't expect much from SS30 but I hope for more from SD36. I am clear, she's not obligated to do anything for any of these kids including mine. It's interesting that no one has pointed a finger towards BM's role in their childhoods. Just how DH is a lousy grandpa, assuming he was a lousy father and so on. All I've said is that he is a better father now than then according to my skids. You have to have a pretty damaged psyche to be envious at any level of a six year old who was gravely ill. You bet, DH and I were out of our minds with fear and worry. He recovered, thank God and is 7 now. But my grown skids sure do care that SGS9 goes skiing if my kid goes skiing, that SGS has a party if DS is having one etc etc etc. because THAT KID needs love and attention.

I'm not sure why you're still posting to me when it's obvious that your situation is/was much different and agreeable to all involved. And, since there isn't an actual "step" relationship that exists for you as the SM is out of the picture, it probably is hard to relate. Here's the whole story - worked w/ DH a couple of years, got along w/ this DD, helped her in tennis (I played through college on a scholarship) but saw that she wasn't a worker at it and had visions of playing at the next level. Tried to tell her that practice in this sport needed to be daily, not weekly if she really wanted to play in college. Then, the ex and DH split up due to her affair w/ this DDs tennis coach. As I said, she bought his groceries (DH found her unloading them once at his apt!), gave him $, displaced DH as the father - took this man w/ her and the kids to the movies, etc. Fast forward - my engagement to my fiance from residency broke up - he wanted me to move to central FL, I was caring for my Dear Nephews 7 days/week who hadn't been dealt a fair hand in the parenting dept. I was living at my parent's home, paying all their bills and cleaning the house entirely weekly. DH and I loved sports - began taking my DNephews to games, etc. We fell in love - I didn't see it coming as he was 19 yrs. older and I'd never dated anyone that much older. Our first kiss was months later, 5 days before his divorce was final. The ex's bf dumped her and she was very bitter learning that he and I were seeing one another. She trashed my name to patients, neighbors, etc. We had a mutual friend who worked for us and this woman tried to get our rec't to give her all the addresses of all patients so she could spread her venom even more. The rec't quit under the stress of being friendly w/ all sides, severing ties w/ the ex, but leaving us high and dry after she worked for my DH for 17 yrs. It hurt the practice. During the time we dated (1 1/2 yrs), my steps were nowhere to be seen. In fact, I didn't see them at all while dating DH. They didn't come to the office and I didn't go to his place on his weekends (felt they needed time to reestablish a relationship w/o the gf around), and his ex tried like heck to NOT have them see him - coming up w/ any excuse to not allow his EOW visits to occur. She would often just have the DD play tournaments on her weekends w/ her dad, so they'd often be busy there, sometimes out of town at them. The kids were completely lost to him. We married when they were 12, 14, 16. The DDs said they wanted to go to the wedding, so I took them shopping for dresses. I thought they had changed their hearts back to where they were before I dated their dad, but when we got in the middle of the mall, they screamed that they HATED me and to get out of their lives. It was a terrible scene. I was embarrassed, hurt, you name it. My SS attended the wedding, the girls did not. After the honeymoon, the ex cried that she was being evicted from her place - which was one room w/ her and these three kids. (DH paid handsomely and she skimped on EVERYTHING for these kids - the double dipping was sickening! The kids would come over w/ the clothes on their backs, and in one instance, w/ no shoes. Come on!) I immediately offered the rental I have (that I now have offered SD) or to allow us to house the kids while she found a place. Not willing to give up CS, that was opposed. I said that I wasn't worried about CS, just trying to help out. She moved the kids over and over and must have a small fortune stashed by now...never into the home I rent out. Anyway, on weekends, this SD usually had tennis - the ex would have her in tournaments on "our" visitation weekends that were out of town. DH would take her. Sometimes I'd have the other kids, sometimes she'd keep them. My weekends were filled w/ awkwardness. The kids did not respect me, I tried like heck to please them - made whatever they wanted, movies, amusement parks, etc. If I had them, they ALWAYS brought a friend to spend the weekend w/ us, so very little alone time was spent w/ me as the "buffer" friends were there and I didn't know what to do. If this SD and her sister were w/ us, the room was left in squalid conditions. Often, the beds would be moved so that I couldn't enter the room. I'd have to enter an adjacent bedroom, go through the connecting bathroom, then into their room. Sheets, comforters, wet towels would be all over the place. There were many other disgusting things that I'll spare you of related to their monthly cycles... Anyway, I'd complain to DH, he'd say nothing, and things didn't improve. By the time they came back, a gentle, "Please try to leave the room the way you find it, girls..." would follow. I was too unassertive to speak up. Then, a couple of years later, college followed - we paid, naturally, and they began to crash in on us each break, despite their mother now having a house and living alone. From never wanting to be around us, suddenly it was us they always with. They knew who buttered their bread. In they'd crash w/ a bunch of friends. Not one of them EVER made a bed, which is one of my few pet peeves - I have things cluttered up, but the beds are always made before we leave the house. By then, I had the boys, still worked, lived in our office bldg in cramped conditions, 2 bathrooms - showers only, etc. It wasn't comfortable for DH, me, his 3 kids, our 2-3 sons depending on the year, their friends, etc. The stepson, who had made fun of our old house (prior to its demo and this new one being built) HATED living in an office "basement" (ground floor of a 2 story bldg) and complained to anyone and everyone. Still, I tried to please him. I GAVE him my loaded Ford Explorer and he called it a piece of junk. It was no such thing - was very nice, 2 y. old. He was supposed to work for us, showed up twice in a summer in exchange for a car he felt was suitable. What did DH do? Bought him a LEXUS that we could not afford. Suddenly, DH was able to get financing (everything else is in my name as he has bad credit). The car didn't have xenon lights so the creep yelled, "I'd rather have a Honda Civic w/ xenon lights that this w/o them!" GRRRR - and I have a Honda and it's a GREAT car! DH and I fought. Later, the SAME situation occurred w/ the girls. They have a huge sense of entitlement. I realize DH's parenting caused a lot of this, but their mother told them over and over to basically try to take us to the cleaners and they have! DH married their mom as she was pg - said she was on the pill....They had broken up when she turned up pg. He stepped up, then a few years later, she stepped out, poisoned the kids, later tried to prevent me from having a relationship w/ them which worked for a long time. Then, suddenly, it could cost her to keep them from us. So, she and they all saw that Daddy would buy more toys - and so the story goes. Please, don't act like I haven't tried or didn't know this man had kids. They've made it clear how they feel and also that if they want anything, it wouldn't come from their mom. DH w/ the guilt or whatever, is a pleaser, and tries in the wrong ways to bond w/ these kids. I don't think it's right, but I DO understand. We all LOVE our kids, would lay down our lives for them, etc. I know he's in a tough position. However, I do not want my kids raised in the same manner and do not want any of their materialism influencing my children. I want to raise INDEPENDENT and happy, healthy men, not boys. My SD has received the benefit of the doubt so much of the time. She hasn't wanted for anything. I've mentioned that her father is stressed about our finances as we wait for some help from the ins. co due to the fire in '05, that he is stressed w/ time, still she forks over her bills and her errands, not handling anything. It's just making me sick. Sadly, these children have a huge sense of entitlement and are greedy people. The YSD never spoke to me, but after her mother found religion handed me a Christmas list and said, "My mother is baking a birthday cake for Jesus. She doesn't believe in the commercialism of Christmas, so I guess I'll have to give you this." I was dumbfounded, but off I went, buying everything on the list. It was ALL returned, and has been ever since. See, I still TRY, feel like there could be a window for a real relationship to form, but I'm always disappointed. Now, I have my own kids' well-being to be concerned w/. After the b-day, shopping trip that never happened to my oldest last month, I see a pattern and I won't have my own kids feeling disappointed like I have over the years. Guess I even tried to placate them materialistically - basically in any way I could. I've never had this situation. Don't you see, TOS, it's all about "her." For me being as close to my mother as I am, I'd rather stay w/ her in a hut w/o A/C, 'cause I love her, than w/ anyone else in a palace. I don't think these kids understand love. They all but dumped their mom when they began wanting things she wouldn't provide. What kind of love it that? And, now, living w/ me and DH and our three sons while her mother lives alone? Just doesn't make sense. I think when their mother found religion, they found Daddy again as mom started tithing to her church and not to them...maybe they see their mom's lies and severed some ties because of that, but regardless, these kids don't care for me. I allowed myself to be treated like a doormat, trying to be accepted, liked, etc. That's my mistake, but I'll be darned if it will continue or extend to my kids. This morning, she was yelling because my younger two woke her up 10min. before her alarm would go off and she needed that sleep (did her own laundry last night, hooray, but didn't like it apparently!) It's the youngest one's 3rd b-day and they were excited. I was making everyone breakfast, got a dirty look for not keeping them quieter, but I smiled, "Good morning!" She mumbled something back and that was that...agree to disagree yet?