Focus only on the cooking. Focus only on Ovens.

The rest will fall into place easily. No need to coordinate. You have time on your side. DW's, sinks, fridges are not related to cooking.

I opened a thread recently for people to comment on the "Future of Counter Top Cooker Appliances. Toaster Oven, Roaster, Etc" and got a lot of comments that apply to your situation.

I too am (a bit) confused as to the appropriate number of "ovens" and which type. At the moment I have no toaster oven, no microwave, and no other puny plug-in heating appliance (which I did use during a total gut and rebuild of my kitchen). I use one small wall oven for everything, and it works FANTASTICALLY. Since it's small, modern, well insulated, it warms up fast. It is like a toaster oven. But it's also large enough to hold a huge roasting pan. I have space for one more wall oven, and I'm waiting to figure out what I "need".

You need more than one oven. Your needs may be completely different from mine. The thread has comments from people like you. And, strangely, they are all just a little bit confused as to what they would like, what they want in an ideal next kitchen, and whether or not they really would use a (insert key word here) like steam, or speed oven, or combination MW-convection, or whatever.

I think this is the big question. What to buy and why. In terms of cooking.

Here is a link that might be useful: Future of Counter Top Cooker Appliances. Toaster Oven, Roaster,

Your choices sound good to me. I wouldn't worry about the finish. Choose the ones you like best.

To get everything you want,TOL stuff at $15k will require some bargain hunting especially if you are in love with Gaggeanu and want two 30" ovens.

OVENS:
I would start by looking at the Miele outlet store to see if there are ovens available in your area. Link at the end.

Then I would look at craigslist and ebay and follow common sense precautions. Look at clearence section of your local high end appliance dealer if any.

Gaggenau does not have easy-glide racks but they work well. They have an air catylist that eliminates order transfer and odor into your kitchen. Plus the wonderful side opening door. In my own experience,with a sample size that I fully realize is not scientific, Gagg has the best temperature performance.

Miele has a lower easy glide rack in new models.It has the master-chef feature if you like useing pre-programmed function to determine time and temperature for you.

Electrolux- Has the easy-glide racks and is a excellent bang for the buck oven if you don't want to swing for the German models.

Steam ovens obviously use hot steam to cook your food and keept it moist. Speed ovens use radiant heat plus microwaves to cook your food quickly. True convections ovens use a heat element in the back of your oven and spread the heat evenly with a fan. GE Advantium is a speed oven that also uses high intensity halogen light to brown your food. Speed/Convection/Steam... You can get speed/convection or steam/convection but not all three in one oven. At least not to my knowledge.

Which configeration is ultimately determined by how you cook and how you intend to cook. Are you really going to use the steam oven? Will your family want to eat steamed vs fried or suateed food? Or will it be an expensive way to reheat/regenerate leftovers?

MICROWAVE:
Unless you really really really want the Miele MW to match your Miele oven get the Sharp.

COOKTOPS.
Bluestar Advantages: Superior high heat performance and heat distribution. Wearability; as the blustar cast iron fully seasons it will look better. When liquid fall to the side of the burner it simply falls to the aluminum foil below. Eight knob color options on the "range top". Remove the grate and place a wok right in the bowl;reverse the grate to lift your pan a bit and lower your simmer temperature.

Bluestar Disadvantes: Exposed ignitors can crack. Easy enough to change but is something you wont have to do with other gas cooktops(changing ignitors you cracked while cleaning or moving a pot.) Sometimes non-existant customer service. Cleaning spills that land directly on burner.

Wolf Advantage: Superior CS. Better fit and finish. Prestigous name. Easier to clean when liquid lands on top of burner. Signature red knobs on the "rangetop."

Wolf Disadvantage: High heat performance and heat distribution is not as good as BS or Capital Culinarian. Cleaning liquid spills in the crevice between the sealed burner and the stovetop plate.

MIELE DISHWASHER:
All models clean dishes well and have durable components. If you have soft water you may want to consider the Miele entry level model,Inspira, which does not have a water softner.Cutlery tray optional on Inspira. Miele also requires you use rinse aid to get your dishes dry.

Diamante and higher models have water softners. You should really use them if you have hard water,like 90% of Americans do. As you move up the model and price range the dishwashers become quieter and more water/energy efficient. How much that is worth to you determines how high you go on the model/price scale.

REFRIGERATION:
You picked three great brands but need more specifics to give good advice. How much space do you have for the fridge or columns? What models in particular are you looking at? Do you want in-door water/ice service? Do you prefer bottom freezers or SxS? Are you looking at JA or Liebherr French Door? This topic is more model specific. You should really narrow it down some.

SINKS:
That is too big of a topic with too many choices. You need to narrow down the options. What material? Cast iron,sythetic, SS, or copper? Or more exotic choices like soap stone or granite? Apron front? Traditonal? Modern?That is also OT here. Belongs in kitchens forum.

As always JMHO :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Outlet Store

I would double check the interior dimensions of the Icons. When I was shopping, during the last two years, the Icons were significantly more shallow than the regular Electrolux ovens. If I recall correctly, something like only 13 inches, and that was a deal breaker for me. I bought the regular Electrolux ovens, have had them for about 4 months and am very pleased with the performance and capacity so far.

Cj

This is the first time that I get to choose my appliances based on my needs and preferences so I am struggling. I thank you all for your comments because your input/questions are really making me think of what I want at a very detailed level. So, I have a few more questions, if I can indulge you.

First, I love the look of stainless steel but I am not thrill to own it - i prefer white. I don't want to deal with scratches or discoloration (my stainless steel BBQ has changed color!). I want to be able to clean and have them shine. But, if I choose Wolf or Miele, I am stuck with Stainless Steel (black is not an option for my kitchen.) Is there a way to clean/repair scratches/discoloration?

Secondly, Ovens.
23 years ago I got an over-the-counter bake/toaster/microwave oven (Sunbeam, i think)as an engagement gift. It was the best oven in terms of functional use. Is this the same thing as the GE Advantium? The Sunbeam used to toast/broil (there was a coil in the top). Does the GE Adv. model do this?

I use my pressure cooker about 2-3 times per week for dinner. I was thinking that these steamer/convection ovens might be able to replace the pressure cooker. Will the steamer/convection ovens do the same thing in the same amount of time as a pressure cooker? If not, then I'll bag the idea of a steamer/convection oven.

I also want an oven for the specialty items such as baking and roasts which I would use probably 3-4 times per week. If yes to the GE Adv question above, then I need one large and a warming drawer. Any recommendation for a warming drawer?

Finally, my area expects TOL/brand for my home so I need to keep this in mind (though I am not planning on moving). I am trying to narrow my TOL to the essentials - IMO, ovens and cooktops and the rest good quality/solid performance. Does this make sense or do I need to add refrigerator to this TOL list? Or is there a different viewpoint of what constitutes the most important?

Again, thank you all for your help. This forum is the best!

Fagor makes several small appliances you might want to look at.
fagor.com
http://www.fagoramerica.com/
One is an induction pressure cooker :
http://www.fagoramerica.com/appliances/small_appliances/electric_multi_cooker

Also http://www.fagoramerica.com/appliances/small_appliances/portable_induction you might consider getting these and others before you make your mind up about the big things. They don't break anyone's budget.

Steam ovens have no pressure in them. So, no to replacing the pressure cooker with " steamer/convection ovens ".

But don't reject any " steamer/convection oven " yet. Learn more. Habits change. The more you have a steamer, the more you use it.

Does anyone know if Miele ovens have problems maintaining consistent temperature? and whether their service has improved? (from service problems as described by baver and @fridge)

Just a note regarding cooktops and pressure cookers.... I also use my pressure cooker frequently. I replaced my electric range with an induction cooktop, and I absolutely love it. The temperature control is precise and holds evenly, and my model (Miele) has timers on each burner. I've used this more than once with my pressure cooker--bring it up to temp, set the time, and it turns itself off when you've set it to. If you've already decided on something else, just ignore this--just thought I'd throw it in since you mentioned pressure cooking.

Cj

First, Is there a way to clean/repair scratches/discoloration?

Mild to moderate scratches can be repaired with products like Scratch B Gone. Deep scratches can only be fixed by replacing panels. I don't know of any method to clean discolored SS.

Secondly, Ovens.
The Sunbeam used to toast/broil (there was a coil in the top). Does the GE Adv. model do this?

I have never owned one of those Sunbeam combo toaster/microwaves but I think they cooked either in MW or Conventional mode not both at the same time. Advantium cooks all three at the same time(MW,Halogen,and Convection),MW by itself,or conventional by itself.

It is debatable whether the speed oven gives great results. A few owners think they get better results than conventional ovens and say they hardly use their full size ovens.Most say the results taste about the same. A few say the results are a little worse. I fall into the latter camp.

Will the steamer/convection ovens do the same thing in the same amount of time as a pressure cooker?

No. Habits can change but they usually don't stay changed for the better. LOL

Any recommendation for a warming drawer?

Warming drawers are simple machines with a simple task. In this case it is ok to be matchy-matchy. Get same brand as your regular oven.

Finally, my area expects TOL/brand for my home so I need to keep this in mind (though I am not planning on moving). I am trying to narrow my TOL to the essentials - IMO, ovens and cooktops and the rest good quality/solid performance. Does this make sense or do I need to add refrigerator to this TOL list? Or is there a different viewpoint of what constitutes the most important?

IMO cooking is the central task of the kitchen so that gets first priority in the budget. I do most of my cooking on the stovetop so that gets 1A priority. Ovens get 1B priority.

IMO refrigerators are the most important to the average real estate buyer. Built-in refrigerators are the most impressive looks-wise vis-a-vis their standard appliance cousins.

If this is a significant issue for you and you want to trim the budget in refrigeration then you might consider a 2-3 year old GE MONOGRAM. They are not Sub-Zero/Liebherr quality but a built-in Monogram that is not too old or in bad of shape can be found for cheap on craigslist or specialty used appliance store.Recent models have that Hummer-style louvered Sub-Zero type grill too.Male real estate buyers love love love that look and female buyers don't dislike it. Stereotype I know but usually though not always true.

Stainless steel wool exists (it's pricey). Use this (stainless) to resurface stainless. Or sandpaper.
--- This is an advantage that stainless has over all other materials. You can rework the surface. I have used fine sandpaper to re-brush/re-finish the brushed stainless finish. I have done it and lived to tell the tale. Nothing bad happened. It was all OK, all the time.

I know someone whose Miele ovens had problems maintaining consistent temperature. But, I don't call people up and interview them about this kind of thing, so I have no idea how it all worked out. I also know that Miele service was not good, at that time, for that person, about 18 months ago when I ran into her at the appliance retailer and heard her describing her travails. ((I have not seen the thread about Miele service problems described by baver and @fridge))

cj47 explained a great way to use pressure cookers together with induction (because of the timer).

Based on the feedback received on the other thread I linked to at the top of this thread, it seems that many people feel that 1 and a half ovens are the right number. A half is something like a toaster oven, or that size. Many people had no plan for their toaster oven and now "work around" that lack of planning.

Hth

Hmmm....that's an interesting point. Will I still want my convection/toaster ovenlet after I have a shiny new Miele and CC range? Or will I just slum it and use the B&D dorm-room toaster oven for banana bread? Should I make open-shelving space just in case? Probably....

Personally, I think it is a crime against the culinary arts to spend $15k plus on appliances and use the dorm-room/Costco/Target special to cook/reheat anything LOL.

That is why I got a 24" Gagg for; as my daily oven.

The big range oven for the big jobs.

BTW I don't like the toaster ovens or toasters for toast.

I toast on the range with my comal

When toasting for the family. Or heating up tortillas for the entire clan.

Well, I have been doing my due diligence and guess what?

Dodge59: I can't find a store in No.VA that has the Electrolux Icon on display. I know you love your Elex so I though I should at least check it out (I hate to pass on a good appliance at a lower price than Miele/Wolf)

And for BlueStar lovers - I have only found a 30" range but no cooktop to look at. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to go with a 36" cooktop with downdraft - but I don't want to buy BS cooktop unseen. I did manage to see the cooktops from DACOR, Capital, and Gaggenau. I will admit that I had gone to the web and looked at the Gaggenau and did not like it. Very different when I saw it in person but at $3500 + downdraft? YIKES.

So, if I cannot see a BS cooktop, then I am down to Dacor (being offered at $1200+ Downdraft!) or Wolf. Is the DACOR ok? I have not heard + about DACOR.

And then, aliris19 posted getting the KA KUDE70 for $620 at Sears which makes buying a Miele D/W a bit extravagant, don't you think?

As for ovens, I did get to see the Gaggenau (dream), Capital, Wolf, Miele, and JennAir. I had not considered JennAir but the V2 looked great and seems promising. Does any know more about this oven? I guess it will depend on $$ difference between this and Miele/Wolf (DH prefers Wolf, I prefer Miele). Cost difference would have to be significant to consider since it is so new (I am still waiting on my quote).

AS for fridge, well...I forgot to take into account my own height! I am only 5'1" and SZ and Liebherr are just to high for me. I am also limited by cabinet height so I had to eliminate them. The problem is..what should I get? I liked the 72" counter depth of the KA but was not impressed with the quality inside (anything is better than my standard GE Profile with sticks out). LG has fire problems so I guess I am left with 69"H Samsung? The Dacor/Jenn Air looked just like the KA but with higher price tag.

I got to tell you, I think I have reached analysis-paralysis. If I had no $$ limit, it would be easier but I would like to get some real rest and be done with it.

That's really a shame about having to use a downdraft. Can you explain why that is a must? Perhaps some of the knowledgeable people here can help you come up with a way to have a proper hood.

I agree with Deeageaux that your sink topic belongs in the Kitchens Forum. Before you post there, do a search there for other threads about sinks, since there have been so many. Also, the first decision to be made about your sink is what size is its base cabinet going to be? A 36" base cabinet would be great, and gives you so many options for great sinks. But many if not most people cannot dedicate a 36" size cabinet to a sink. Along with which material you want to have, you should also decide if you are a double-bowl or single-bowl sink person, but again, your sink base cabinet size will have bearing on that decision too.

Dacors look great but not great reliablity.

I would much much prefer Wolf. Althought the cooktops themselves are pretty simple machines.

It is harder to get a deal on a Miele DW than Kitchenaid but they are out there. All high end appliances are extravagent. I would consider any DW with a market price of $600 plus extravagent. A local Miele dealer here in Los Angeles has Inspira 1 dwers for $846.

JennAir is made by Whrilpool and Whrilpool does not have a great reputation right now with regards to ovens. Some say problems with self clean function are done others think jury is still out. I would rather get the Electrolux sight unseen.

The Dacor/Jenn Air looked just like the KA but with higher price tag.

The CDs pretty much are the same but you get the nicer handles ont the Dacor/JA.

The JA Pro Diamond-cut handles are my favorite in all fridgedom.

The Samsung is top rated by JD Powers for fridges. Alot of bang for the buck. Dual evaporators,power freeze,power cool etc. Not top-shelf contruction but acceptable.

You are doing the "right thing" Sconway!
That is the way I bought our appliances.
I went to different stores, (Mostly Pacific Sales) and I looked at every thing that they had.

Back then, 2005, I had never heard of GW.
If I had, it would probably have save me one huge "Goof"
I made a very big "Goof" buying a "Very Fancy" Electric Smooth top Cooktop and its associated downdraft.

I had never heard of Electrolux, or Miele, and knew very little about Jenn-air. The glide out racks, the well lit interior, the wavetouch controls "Got ME" as far as ovens were concerned---looked at every other oven made, back
then, and kept coming back to it.

The Miele DW got us, with its silverware tray up on top.
That had always been one of my Pet Pieves (SP)? about my old DW, diggin the silverware outta that low down tray!!!

GW, did pay off later, after that expensive piece of junk cooktop died (lasted just over a year). Saw on GW "Induction" In "What????" Read up about it on GW and elsewhere. Replaced piece of junque cooktop with Elux Induction---We luv that thing---especially at our age No scrubbing, cussing, etc etc to keep it clean. Lotta times we cover it with paper towels, (In fact, most the time now) and "Clean up" is, "Toss the Towels"

Anway by all means, go see each appliance "In Person" What appeals to Me, or other ppl here, may not interest you in the least.

Good Luck on Pending Decisions!!!

Gary

"I would rather get the Electrolux sight unseen. " Ok. I had my doubts and after talking to my DH I concluded that I rather spend the extra $1K for the Miele than go with the nice looking JennAir - even if I had to live with some old white appliances mixed with some newer stainless steel Miele. I will just have to wait so that I can get what I want. Quite frankly, I do not mind spending the big money, I am afraid of spending the big money and being disappointed with my purchase (if a lemon, at least I can get my money back).

Now, would you buy a BS over the Wolf sight unseen? I still do not know if I can do a BS with the downdraft (some have said yes, but a dealer told me that if I bought a DACOR downdraft, I would void the DACOR warranty if I installed it with a BS).

Shannonplus2, I have to use a downdraft because that is what I currently have in place. I am having someone come to my house to tell me how much more it would cost to remove upper cabinets and install a hood but quite frankly, I am doing an upgrade of appliances b/c my ovens died. I do not have the $$ to do a full kitchen redo the way I would want it so I am compromising on a few things. Ideally, I would scratch my cabinets so that I could have a 48" range. But, I did not win the lottery yesterday.

I will look at the kitchen forum for sink input but I have decided to stay with the white -- this is easy to change so I am in no rush. A single deep sink is my idea of a sink. I do not know if I want a farm style, under cabinet, stainless steel, etc. So, I need to do my homework. But right now, I need to decide on appliances. I want to be done in 2 weeks.

The oven question was a no-brainer IMO.

The cooktop question is a little harder.

When I really think about it; the decison becomes a bit murkier.

I can't unknow and unsee what I have seen.

I have looked over Bluestar and Wolf products over and over again.The high-end appliance salesman leave me alone now. They now I am a stroker. I stroke the appliances but don't buy.LOL They probably know I am buying most or all of my stuff over the net.

I have been to Bluestar product demonstrations.

Chef Marcus Samuelson made three courses that required high heat to come out perfect and one that required a simmer.

I have cooked on friends BS range and have tried the same dishes on my old Kenmore and Wolf.Wolf was a major improvement over my old Kenmore but....I was wowed by the BS.

The gnawing issue has for me has been the quality of the BS oven and the oven door hinges in particular. That is a non-issue for you.

The new Bluestar cooktop and range I saw last Sunday is much better than the old stuff. The fit and finish has really improved.They even rearranged the door gasket to protect the door oven hinges. Amazing what a little competition from Capital will do.

But I digress,Yes I would get the Bluestar over the Wolf cooktop. The gnawing issue for you is the ventilation. At the end of the day you can turn down the BS heat if the downdraft is being overwhelmed and you are uncomfortably hot. You can't turn up the heat on the Wolf past its max if you really want more.

And here is a thread to get you started on your sink research.

Here is a link that might be useful: fireclay vs. quartz farmhouse sink

well, I need help again. Before placing my order, I had the them come and measure to make sure I would have no surprises.

Well, everything is ok except cooktop. I have a bumped out 24" cabinet with a 36" GE profile gas cooktop and built-in downdraft. Because the downdraft is built-in (control is part of the cooktop), I need to replace it along with the cooktop.

SO, I wanted the Blue Star and Dacor was 2nd choice (because of price). Turns out that I cannot install either one of them because I need more than 22 inches of cabinets (indoor cabinet measure).

Now what? I really want to keep the current footprint so as to keep my budget as low as possible but my "need to replace oven" need to "might as well replace all appliances" is becoming a bigger issue.

I was told that putting a rangetop would not look nice becuase my Corian countertop is bullnosed. Yes, it can be done but that in their experience, I would not be happy with the results? Anyone has pictures of retrofitting a rangetop or even a 36" range in place of a cabinet?

I really thought this would be a 2 week thing but it has been a month and I am not there yet.

Anyone has any ideas? I hate to reevealuate my appliances to accomodate the cost of removing a cabinet and putting a hood!

Final appliances were:
1) Blue Star cooktop with KA downdraft --???
2) mIele double convection oven
3) Bosch microwave (inexpensive)
4) Miele inspira DW
5) KA counter depth FD fridge

We are replacing all the appliances, sinks and faucets in our kitchen. The cabinets are custom made and are still great after 19 years so those stay. We are also changing our granite countertops from black to a more interesting lighter color granite.

My husband and I, after visiting showrooms, speaking to a personal chef and a caterer, who have worked in many kitchens, have decided on Thermador all the way. We soon developed shopping fatigue trying to decipher which brand was "the best" in the various categories.

When I saw the Miele top tray for silverware I fell in love! The top-end Thermador has the same feature. Right now Thermador has a promotion that includes a free dishwasher ($1,500) when you purchase a range or cooktop + double ovens. We are paying $500 to upgrade to the "Ultimate Sapphire" DW to get the top tray and panel-ready.

We based our decision on Thermador being a top-rated brand and also because it makes things EASY. Done and done! ;-)

Also, we need a new downdraft as well. Our cooktop in on an island so we don't want a hood hanging over. We currently have a downdraft (Thermador) which has its control on the cooktop. They used to be made that way, but now they are 2 separate appliances. The downdraft price is $1,940 (I don't recall if this is also Thermador or not).

And, BTW, we have enjoyed our current cooktop/downdraft very much. Still works great, never a service call in 19 yrs. Just time for something new. Thermador has star-shaped burners that cover more surface area of the pot than the round burners.

Thermador does not let it's dealers discount so we have seen the same prices everywhere. Good deal though with the free DW.

I wanted to give you all an update on my appliances!

Oven: Double Miele Convection H4892BP2
Cooktop: Drop-in BlueStar RBCT365BSS
D/W: KA KUDE70FXSS
M/W: KA KHMS2040WSS
Down Draft: KA KIRD861VSS1
Fridge: KA KFCS22EVMS

I wanted Miele D/W but KA had a deal so I ended up paying $600 less than the Miele D/W (too good to pass). The same goes for the M/W.

All in all, I cannot thank enough the people in this forum! I absolutely love my Blue Star! It performs and looks professional. There is so much power that I am not sure the downdraft will be enough. I have to admit that I seldom used my downdraft and I am now learning the need for it. So it might just be that I have to learn to use the appliances as they are intended (duh!)

The KA downdraft is very quiet and much taller than the previous one. It is a separate unit so installation required alot of changes from what I had before. Not to mention that the Blue Star alone was the size of my previous cooktop and downdraft combined.

And what can I say about my Miele oven -- I am in heaven! I love to cook but I will admit that I had gotten used to the darker coloring in some of my cooking. My oven has been working to perfection! The food comes out evenly cooked, warm and without that slightly broiled look that I used to get from my old oven (eventhough I had not used the broiler!) I had it installed my a certified Miele installer so I will get an additional warranty year (which I was told it is being discountinued as of May 1, 2011).

KA D/W has been very quiet, has large capacity and is cleaning great. I also love the upper cutlery tray. I was surprised to find out (after all my research) that it takes 3-4 hours to clean (water efficiency). THis was never disclosed. Since I tend to wash when I go to bed, it is not a problem. It does have a 1 hour option so I can still do dishes quickly if I need to. But is the water saving cheaper than using electricity for 3-4 hours? I am next to a water facility next to the river so water shortage is not a problem here.

My only disappointment is the refrigerator. I opted for the counter-depth and knew that I was compromising in capacity but I really wanted a "built-in" look without the built-in cost. This fridge fits nicely and gives me the desired look but the freezer capacity is almost non-existent and the upper roll-away tray above the main freezer compartment is a pain. Sometimes it does not close properly (I think there is something wrong so I will call KA).

Finally, the KA M/W capacity is larger and it has a warming function. My only surprise was to find that the M/W is only front stainless steel - the sides are black. Apparantely, this is the way they make OTR M/W. It does not look bad but I can see the left side -the one next to the cooktop. Had I known this, I would have searched for an all around OTR stainless steel M/W.

As for the Stainless Steel finish, it has been easier to clean and maintain than I thought. The only cleaning problem is with my Miele oven electronic controls which retain every fingerprint. Every time I clean it I turn on the upper or lower oven (does anyone know how to properly use the lock function?)

Anyway, my total cost for all appliances listed above was $11,370 plus $1,125 for installation. This does not include the $500 credit card from KA that I am expecting. I stayed within my budget and was able to get a great combination of appliances. I could not have done it without your help.

Again, many thanks!

Oh, it's always nice when OP's post back with follow-up! Great write-up. One question....so, what did you decide for a sink?

Oh, it's always nice when OP's post back with follow-up! Great write-up. One question....so, what did you decide for a sink?

It is annoying when you spend quite of bit of time and effort to give someone advise then then they fade away once they have the info they need.

Props to sconway for contributing to the community.