Another name for a sport is a somatic mutation. A whole plant would not be considered a sport.

I guess many people know the term sport from apples where many varieties originated from one branch of a tree and the apples on that branch were different than the others.

Same thing with tomatoes. Instead of there being a mutation in the DNA of a chromosome in the seed the mutation is in the DNA of a plant cell.

So that you can get one branch that has different colored fruits or differently shaped fruits.

Let me give a couple of examples that I've personally seen.

The variety Green Gage has yellow round fruits. One plant of mine had fruits of the same size and shape on one branch but were red in color. That means that the mutation occurred in a plant cell right before the branch.

With Dix Doight de Naples I had one branch that had the same colored fruits but they were a completely different shape.

The variety Riesentraube has small red fruits with a nipple. Someone found ONE fruit on a plant with all red fruits, saved the seed from that one yellow fruit and that was the origin of the variety Yellow Riesentraube. So in this case the somatic mutation occurred in a plant cell that gave rise to that one fruit/

So a whole tomato plant would not be a sport and although it's rare, one might see the kinds of sports ot somatic mutations that I described above.

If you sow seeds for Cherokee Green and you get a plant that doesn't have the traits of CG then that's just a wrong variety and could originate either from a stray seed of another variety in the pack or seeds that were X pollinated.

Does that help?

Carolyn

Thanks, Dr. C.,I was hoping you would comment on this one. I'm just trying to air out for myself and the others here what it takes to say "This is a significant difference". With the harvest in full swing, many folks may encounter a deviation and not realize it. I wanted the experts to give us some guidelines.

I am raising Yellow Pear this year (very prolific and large long vines in my containers) and the first cluster has fruit that are not the typical pear shape. They're more of a fat, squat teardrop with wide shoulders and a quick taper to the stem, more of a Roma shape. I don't think this is anything, but it got me to thinking about my question here.

Anyhow, hope the lightning damage wasn't too bad and repairs are finished.

BTW, I'll be growing your namesake next year.

Let me first say that the bald peach, better known as the nectarine is my favorite sport.

Though it would lead to many claims of X pollinated plants being sports, is it possible or just hard to prove that a whole plant could be a sport? A branch bearing fruit exhibiting new traits compared to the rest of the plant is pretty stone cold evidence, but a whole plant with different fruit from seed is... well just unknown. I know with tulips sports, the whole plant or I suppose bulb is changed. I guess what I want to know is does a plant have to exhibit its proper traits before a sport happens in order for it to be considered a sport?

I guess what I want to know is does a plant have to exhibit its proper traits before a sport happens in order for it to be considered a sport?

****

A somatic mutation can occur in any cell of the plant at any time but you just don't know when or where that will happen. Take the case of Riesnetraube that I mentioned above. All proper traits were shown except for a single yellow fruit, not even a branch with all yellow fruits, so that means that the mutation happened just for that one fruit to change color.

Somatic mutations are spontaneous single mutations and thus can only change one trait of the kind I mentioned above.

So no **entire** plant can have changes that involve many traits at one time.

There are some varieties, such as Lutescent, aka Honor Bright, where it's pretty clear that it resulted from a mutation of a gene that controlled other genes, but since the genetic history of that variety is not known there's not much more that I can say. And indeed such changes are rare indeed.

I've grown well over 2000 varieties and to date have seen only the two somatic mutations I mentioned above.

Carolyn

Here's the Yellow Pear I had talked about.
{{gwi:1369107}}

The others also "fatten up" when they ripen. Looks like a grape.
{{gwi:1369109}}

It was delicious.
{{gwi:1369111}}

I need to paint that top-rail.

Just for the fun of it why not save seeds from your 'bloated" Yellow pear's versus a nearby normal apeparing one and see what you get when you use those seeds next year?

How many bloated ones per branch and/or per plant? if lots of them and they're far apart on the plant that doesn't speak to me of a somatic mutation.

Weather can change the shape of fruits and I think I mentioned that in a post above. I'm too lazy to go back and look. LOL

I think the top rail looks just fine. ( smile)

Carolyn

As a matter of fact, I had the same thought and the seeds from just THAT one are working right now.

The plant branched about 10" above the soil and the deviation came from the right branch, beginning with the first bloom stem. It seems that each cluster on the right side has one "fat boy" and one "Semi-fat boy" and the other are closer to normal. It's always the first tomato on the stem (closest to the vine). I've included more pictures of the differences I'm seeing.

HereÂs the remainder of the Stem from which I took the Fat one.
{{gwi:1369114}}

This is the 2nd Stem up the right side (Fat Boy on the left).
{{gwi:1369116}}

This is the third stem up the right side (Again, fat one on the left).
{{gwi:1369117}}

This is the 4th stem up the right side (fat boy on the right).
{{gwi:1369118}}

This is the 8th stem on the right side (fat one on the top)
{{gwi:1369119}}

This is the 4th stem on the LEFT Side.
{{gwi:1369120}}

This is the 11th stem on the LEFT Side
{{gwi:1369122}}

HereÂs the comparison where the two stems cross each other. The LEFT Stem is from the LEFT side (9th Cluster) and the RIGHT Stem is from the RIGHT Side (8th Cluster)(fat one behind - 2nd from right - in between)
{{gwi:1369123}}

So, should I contemplate saving more of the seeds from the ones with no shoulders?????

So, should I contemplate saving more of the seeds from the ones with no shoulders?????

****

Thanks for answering my questions. The fact that there are more than one fat boys, LOL, suggests to me it isn't a somatic mutation, but right now I don't know any good explanation other than the the fact that it's always the fruit in a cluster that's closest to the main stem and I wonder if it has anything to do with water transport.

Meaning, I would presume that the greatest amount of water would be shunted to the fruits closest to the main stem/

Whatever, why not save some seeds from a fat boy and some from somce normal fruits and see what you get next year.

Carolyn

...... why not save some seeds from a fat boy and some from somce normal fruits and see what you get next year.

Carolyn
____________________________________________

You read my mind about the seeds. I was going to save seeds from the plant anyhow, but now I'll have three groups instead of one. I'll save the seeds from each of the ones displaying the "no shoulders" thing and keep them separate from the first one. I'll also save some from the left side (normal). I see some bloom bagging in my '09 future.

Thanks. I guess I should offer you some of the seeds if you want them. Let me know and we'll arrange the transfer.

Meaning, I would presume that the greatest amount of water would be shunted to the fruits closest to the main stem/

*********

But wouldn't the left side be showing the same bloating? Every tomato on the right side is larger than the ones on the right side - even the ones that are not bloated.

BTW, if this turns out to be something, I'm gonna name it "Teddy Bear Pear".

carolyn,

"So that you can get one branch that has different colored fruits or differently shaped fruits."

different shaped fruits? so now i am curious, while you never mentioned this re prue, you know that sometimes prue has variable shaped fruit. would those different shaped fruits then be considered a sport? i can't recall but i think when the different shapes occurred that not all the tomatoes on that plant were bomb shaped for example, seems there were some "this" shape (typical) and some "that" shape (atypical).

thanks,

tom

different shaped fruits? so now i am curious, while you never mentioned this re prue, you know that sometimes prue has variable shaped fruit. would those different shaped fruits then be considered a sport? i can't recall but i think when the different shapes occurred that not all the tomatoes on that plant were bomb shaped for example, seems there were some "this" shape (typical) and some "that" shape (atypical).

*****

Tom, Prue is just one variety that can exhibit fruits of variable shape on a single plant at the same time.

But a sport, such as the Dix Doight de Naples that I mentioned above has different shaped fruit all on the SAME truss/branch/cluster and ALL other fruits on the plant are correct for the variety. So it's a sport b'c of that.

Carolyn

I dont want to burst your bubble, but i've grown yellow pear for several years and I often get a range of shapes. some are very pear and some look almost like grape tomatoes. the shapes vary throughout the season, so I expect its environmental. I think my seeds were origianlly from kmart.

jake

thanks, nope not a sport.

tom

I was just on Johnnys Seed a moment ago and the picture that website has for YelPr seems to have a "fat boy" on the left. It seems to a characteristic of this tasty variety. Jake, I think you're right. Tom and Carolyn -- Your knowledge keeps the sanity factor in place around here. My hat is eternally off.

Thanks to everyone. This was the discussion I was hoping for. I've certainly learned a lot. Anyhow, no harm done. In fact, it's a positive. I already have my YelPr seeds for next year. I'll still save additional seeds (for trading, of course). Maybe one day I'll find a "Teddy Bear" tomato. LOL