A sport is a spontaneous change in the chemical structure of the rose's DNA. It is possible, maybe even probable, that a single change effects more than one characteristic of the plant. Many of the sports of Souvenir de la malmaison seem to illustrate this.

A change in number of petals is one of the most common forms of mutation showing up in flowers. All doubleness in flowers originates with mutation. One or more changes in the flower may happen at the same time as changes in the rest of the plant. For example, Pink Gruss an Aachen, compared to its sport-parent, has fewer thorns as well as a different flower color.

But I see your point, it seems counter-intuitive that more than one change should happen at once,

Was just wondering this myself.....

My Blue Girl is not own-root. The graft is not buried beneath the soil. (It will be come wintertime.) I noticed tall, candelabra-type sprays that sprang up this month, with a different form to the flowers. At first, I attributed it to diminished bloom production due to the extreme heat we've been having. However, when I worked in the rose beds last week and applied bone meal, I noticed something when I pulled the mulch away from the base of this rose.

This first photo is of the entire bush from the side. The cane I'm wondering about is the long, straight, tall one on the left side of the photo.
{{gwi:302445}}

This second photo shows the origin of the cane. It is NOT coming from above the graft, or anywhere near the graft for that matter. However, it appears nearly similar to the original plant except for its tall, upright habit and reduced petalage.
{{gwi:302446}}

Is this a sport? It's not really a sucker, is it? Wondering what to call it since it's not looking anything like Dr. Huey, yet it seems to originate from under the graft.

Well, on that Blue Girl, that's not a sport. I agree it also doesn't look like Dr. Huey -- are you sure that Dr. Huey was the root stock used on your Blue Girl? Maybe this is something that was in this place before Blue Girl? Or maybe some different rootstock was actually used.

There's a quite famous incident with Hortico many years ago where they used Bride's Dream (a hybrid tea) as their rootstock on a bunch of Austin roses. Go figure -- maybe you have something wierd like that used as rootstock.

Kathy

Then does that mean that a "sport" is simply a mutation? Is the word "sport" and mutation interchangable when it comes to roses?

This thread got me thinking, I've got a sport question, too. My plant of Pink Intuition is, I think, a sport of Red Intuition, which is a sport of the solid red rose, Delego, if Helpmefind.com is correct. That site describes Delego as very fragrant. Well, I was tickled to see my Pink Intuition bush sprout a new basal break a couple months back that looks just like Delego. But absolutely no fragrance. Is that a reversion or a sport? I'm wondering if I can call it Delego or not. It has since put out 3 solid red blooms, and it is NOT coming from below the graft (multiflora rootstock, by the way).

I've had other striped roses revert: Carless Love ended up never producing any stripes; looked like Mrs. Charles Bell. My Memphis Music I ordered 3 years ago produced just a couple blooms with a little bit of yellow striping. Since then it has grown nothing but solid blackcherry blooms, though with a bit of muted yellow on the reverse side of the petals. I'm guessing that is just like Memphis Magic, though I've never bought that one directly. I've considered those to be reversions. Does this "scentless Delego" count as a reversion? Anyone know?

Before you call anything a sport (mutation) or a reversion, make sure it's stable. Many of these so called sports are once occuring. When attempting to propagate them, they revert back to the original.
If after successfully propagating it several times, and it continues to be different than the parent and you have the mutated characteristics, you probably have a sport.
I thought I had a sport of the climber Butterscotch but after propagating it from previous cuttings it blooms as Butterscotch. The sport(?) had the color of wintergreen candy with a flatter and cupped bloom than Butterscotch.

Mike,
It's not unusual for a sport to have some blooms that are similar to the original parent.
To arbitrarily call your sport of Pink Intuition, Delego, would be wrong. If your scentless Delego remains that way after repeated propagation, you could have an unscented sport of Pink Intuition that looks like Delego.
Some varieties sport rather easily and often and many are one time occurances that don't repeat.

Yes, "sport" and "mutation" are synonyms.

Very recently I read that the vast majority of rose sports produce flowers that are lighter in color than the sport parent. Now I can't find/remember the source of that info. Does anyone have an opinion on that statement?

Of the few sports that I've grown, the only one that might be said to be darker than its parent is the very pale mauve 'Natasha Monet' which sported from the very white 'Crystalline'. Among OGRs, pale pink 'Souvenir de la Malsaison' sported 'Malmaison Rouge', which is described in the literature as being a very dark crimson (and which many folks now believe to be extinct). Can any of you think of other sports that are darker than their parent variety?

I'm providing a link to some interesting material on sports written by Malcolm Manners.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Manners on Rose Sports

Well, I've got a couple of darker sports -- I grow Magic Lantern, which is a darker orange sport of Gold Medal, and Flaming Peace and Chicago Peace, which are both darker than the original Peace, and I also have Pink Crystal, which is a mauve sport of Crystaline, and slightly darker than Natasha Monet. And then there's Crowd Pleaser, a darker sport of Lynn Anderson. And I don't grow them, but look at the Iceberg series. Iceberg sported Pink Iceberg, which sported Brilliant Pink Iceberg, which sported Burgandy Iceberg -- so that one got progressively darker. And if you research the Koster lines of polyanthas, they seem to go all over the place in no particular order in terms of darkness or lightness.

So I don't think "always lighter" holds up. Can go either way. That said, going lighter probably predominates, however.

Kathy

Kathy,
I'm only assuming the rootstock is Huey since it seems to be pretty typical for what's sold locally. All the other roses in my neighborhood are now big, lanky Hueys as there are few people that knew how to winter protect their rose.

It could be that this specific cane will show blooms identical to the rest of the plant...can't tell at the moment because the tall, lanky cane was the only one blooming during this heat wave. The odd flower form could indeed be due to heat & not mutation. We'll see!
---Laura

Mike in New Orleans - Funny you say that about "Careless Love". Attached is a picture from this past June I took of mine. Looks like a partial revert back to its grandparent "Radiance". If only this were stable.....

Here is a link that might be useful: Careless Love

Mike, my CARELESS LOVE does that same thing quite a lot. There's one section of the plant that almost always has a bloom or two that is either part, half, or ALL light pink. I find it quite interesting.

I've also seen "mutations" on some of my roses every once in awhile, over the yrs. But for the most part, they're just temporary. Usually it's after we've had some weird or unusual weather.

If all you posters would read Rosenuts post about what consitutes a true sport.."Before you call anything a sport, make sure that it is stable. If you propagate it and it reverts back to the original then IT IS NOT A SPORT!" Rosenut knows what he's talking about, he's a MASTER ROSARIAN WITH THE AMERICAN ROSE SOCIETY.

?? I only saw agreement with Karl & other examples posted.

I understand that my 'rogue cane' is not a sport by definition yet. My main question was regarding the origin of this cane. On a grafted plant, is it possible to have a "sport" arise from below the bud union? I thought that only suckers came from that point.

P.S. I should be so lucky that my rootstock is Bride's Dream, because that's on my wish list for next year! :)

Flaurabunda -- you are correct -- it is NOT normally possible to have a true sport from below the bud union on a grafted plant. Although . . . now that I think about it, I guess it would theoretically possible for a plant to grow roots from the graft and then for one of those roots to push up its own cane and for that cane to be a sport of the original. But I've never seen that happen. Let's just call that unlikely. More likely is that the cane is a sucker of the root stock, or regrowth from old leftover roots of something that was planted in that spot before this rose was planted there. Here's the link that talks about that Bride's Dream rootstock episode.

Here is a link that might be useful: Leave it to Hortico -- Brides Dream as a rootstock!

kstrong are your sports, Magic Lantern, Pink Crystal, and Crowd Pleaser stable when you propagate them? Do they stay the same color, Magic Lantern stay a darker orange than Gold Metal; Pink Crystal stay the same mauve color; and Crowd Pleaser stay same darker color than Lynn Anderson when you propagate them?

I propagated 20 Magic Lantern and passed them out to anyone that wanted them and everyone was stable.

Summer Fashion - most of us have known Karl for years, and we know he is knowledgeable. Why you feel the need to yell at people out here is not understood.

Thanks Kathy! Most of my roses are J&Ps that were purchased as active pots from local nurseries. That's another reason for my Dr. Huey assumption.

Guess I'll keep an eye on this one and see what it does through the rest of our season.

I supplied all those many, many cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' to Mr. Gleason, which he rooted and then distributed to his friends. Based on my experience with the rose, I also can attest to its stability.

In lieu of giving me anything in return for my cuttings, perhaps Mr. Gleason will be generous enough to send cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' to our friend Pat at Rose Unlimited so that she might return this fine rose to commerce and make it available once again to others.

The 3 sports you mention are quite well-known to be stable, Summer F. I don't propagate roses very much, however, and have never propagated these three. The plants I have of all three are stable. Moreover, all of them have been in my collection for several years, at least, and I have seen zero tendency to revert in any of them.

What's more, there's a couple of very unstable sports that are none-the-less sports. I'm thinking here of Careless Love (yes, mine goes back and forth also between solid and striped), Memphis Music (which goes back and forth between stripes and solid burgundy), Sequoia Twist, Spring Fling, which sometimes reverts to Gizmo, and then goes back again, and which was known to do that by the propagator and in the AARS trials, where it continually did that in the AARS trials' beds all over the country. See my pics on HMF for what that rose does. My favorite of the "unstable sports" however is Surprise, Surprise on which no two flowers are ever the same -- goes red to lavender to stripes and all around that in many variations. Mine died but I am looking for another. I think sports that are unstable can be quite charming, actually, because you never know what you will get.

But the fact that these roses like to change it up does not disqualify them from being sports. What Karl was trying to exclude from the "sports" definition was (I think) just those roses that throw an aberrant bloom once in awhile -- usually in response to differing weather conditions. Those are just that -- aberrations -- not sports.

Kathy

Here is a link that might be useful: My Spring Fling instability

Kathy,
Correct. You just said it better. The word "sport" gets tossed around way too freely. Many growers are ready to name one that shows up once and figure they can make big bucks from it.
My thought is to wait and not be in a hurry. If yours remains stable, good for you.
I'm waiting right now for three rooted cuttings of my wintergreen colored Butterscotch to grow large enough to bloom so I can see if it remains Wintergreen. Great if it does, disappointed if it doesn't? No! It'll mean I have three rooted cuttings of Butterscotch.

Windeaux - I can do better and send you a really cool striped HT or a nice dark red HT, and send Pat a cutting of Magic Lantern. Just email me your address and I'll get your rose off to you. You have your choice between Crimson Flame and Taboo. I'll call RU this week and see about Magic Lantern.

Had to go back and read it again to see what Summer Fashion's gripe was. May as well bump it for the rest of you. I stand by my comments and think they were appropriate when made.

Kathy, thank you for your informative and well-written comments. I missed this thread originally but enjoyed reading your and Karl's, and Mike's and almost everybody else's comments. Your contribution is appreciated.

Masha

Mgleason, When I sent you the cuttings of 'Magic Lantern', I remember telling you that my primary interest was in doing whatever I could do to keep that variety available and in circulation.

I sent multiple cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' to RU several yrs ago, but Pat notified me that they had failed. (They were autumn cuttings, yours were post-first flush spring cuttings.) I'm now struggling to nurse my old ML into recovery from extreme vole damage, & am unable to send additional cuttings to Pat. If you'll be kind enough to send ML cuttings to her, then I'm MORE than satisfied & am quite willing to call things even . . .

In a few weeks, I'll be sending cuttings of a couple of other rare roses to RU & I'll let Pat know that you'll be supplying some fresh ML cuttings, okay?

windeaux,
Are you aware you can click on mgleason's name, link to GW e-mail, and send him a message off the Forum? Many of us have our e-mail available so as not to clutter up the forum or share personal messages. With those who don't there is no other choice!

Dear karl bapst rosenut,

So sorry for my behavior here. Thanks (I guess) for that slap on the wrist.

Thanks also for the tutorial on where I can click, and for the refresher on forum etiquette. I needed that.

I have to admit, though, that I'm essentially uneducable at this point. Like you, however, I do retain a rather remarkable command of the obvious.

I know whatcha mean about clutter . . . At least two recent threads here are cluttered up with a bunch of stuff about cannabis, you know? But, I just MYOB and go on my merry way.

Have a nice day karl babst rosenut -- and, again, thanks so much for your concern about my 'awareness'.

I don't know Karl, but it seems others might be interested in what we do to get rare roses more available. It's on topic since we are talking about sports. jmo

Sorry, I just thought perhaps some were not aware that they could e-mail many posters (those who've had the courtesy to list their e-mail address) directly rather than post personal messages here and turn a thread into a two person conversation.
Must be the heat making us have thin skins?

"This is one of the best discussions ever." No kidding--this thread has interesting information, drama and sarcasm, and now it got bumped by a spambot. What more could you want?

Too funny, Merilia. I found the whole thing interesting (except for the spambot), and I don't think it was cluttered up by personal stuff. I didn't know that particular rose was in jeopardy, so I learned something today.

Kathy, thanks for posting the link to the rootstock article. Boy! That was some time ago, something like 1994. The Baby Faurax tree rose I budded on Cardinal Hume still grows in my back yard. Neat! Kim

I left a message last year (twice) regarding Magic Lantern, but did not get a call back. I might root one yet this year and send out to another rose vendor who I see out here.

You never know if a sport is going to be stable unless you try. When an Earth Song sported a few years back I quickly rooted it and it has been stable ever since...

Vic's Refrain
{{gwi:264196}}

Congratulations, Michael! Vic's Refrain is beautiful, a much easier color to use than traditional Earth Song. Notice the darker petal in the lower flower trying to revert? Neat! Kim

Last evening I checked with RU via email regarding whether any cuttings of 'Magic Lantern' had been provided. As usual, I received a prompt response. The answer to my inquiry was in the negative. (Why am I not surprised?)

ML has been in my garden for abt 12 yrs, & has been among my favorites since it produced its first bloom. My damaged plant has made a half-hearted recovery, & I'm now attempting to root a number of cuttings in the hope that I'll have at least one in reserve.

If I succeed with these cuttings, I'll send any extras to RU and to one of the vendors I deal with on the West Coast. It's a fine rose, & I'm hoping I can help make it available to even more gardeners than the ones who are now growing & enjoying my plant's progeny.

Gang...Magic Lantern is patented. Propagation of a patented variety is illegal.

Calm down amandahugg -- or turn me in to the rose police if that would turn you on.

Of course I'm going to propagate a rose in my garden that's been there for over a decade and that can't be replaced.

And of course I'm going to supply cuttings of the rose to vendors that may be interested in passing it along to others. Check the listings of modern roses offered by the various own root suppliers. Many recently introduced and patented varieties are to be found among their listings. Those folks have been in business long enough to know what they're doing.