Yes, I think you want both. But here's one thing you have to keep in mind. It is my understanding that, in the early days, many of the very simple Chinas were distributed in the form of SEEDS. You could mail order them ... There was no attempt to deceive, and it was done with more than Chinas. Since many of the roses we have today were recovered as Found Roses from old gardens and the like, it is quite reasonable that there are different "versions" of many of them -- just slight differences, but differences. This doesn't bother me in the least. I'm quite happy to grow both 'Cramoisi Superieur' and "Elisabeth's China," even IF E.C. is a version of C.S. They all bloom beautifully -- no matter what name you assign them. What matters in the long-run, is THIS: jERI

Louis-Philippe of France Louis-Philippe (aka Philippe Egalite or the bourgeois king) of France (1773 Â 1850) was King of the French from 1830 to 1848 in what was known as the July Monarchy. He was the last king to rule France, until being overthrown by the revolution of 1848. I thought there was a red China rose named Louis Phillipe that was very popular in the South and still to be found in dooryards all over. I never heard the name applied to Celsiana, though anything is possible. The Orleans family were more flexible (or libertine if you didn't like them) than the Bourbons, the decapitated older royal branch of the family, a fact that could have helped increase their popularity here in the states. The Bourbon Count of Chambord missed being put back on the throne in 1870 because he refused to accept the tricolor flag (white being the Bourbon color, unlike the namesake rose, which is pink) and the patriotic French people refused by that time to give it up. He was a stick-in-the-mud about protocol and everything else, he and his supporters, as Tallyrand (or someone) famously put it, having learned nothing and forgotten nothing during their exile. I almost fell off my chair laughing at Jon's post.

Mrs. BR Cant is supposed to do very well here, and I have several on their own roots that look extremely promising. Her root system is massive. All are planted near concrete (about 6 ft. away), which is supposed to help keep any nematode populations down. It can be almost impossible to find any OGR on fortuniana, so I am planting what I want own root, and if they ever start faltering, I will either get cuttings custom grafted, or learn to do it myself. There are people that have had success with some of them on their own roots. Depends on what's going on in your yard. I've never had any issues with my lawn or any of my other shrubs, so maybe that's a good sign.

Until you can work with them, keep them in water and in the fridge. That will buy you time. Trim each to just below a node, about 1/2 inch. I like to use 8-12 inch cuttings and I remove most of the leaves. Scrap the green area just above and below the node with a blade until some of the green is gone and you see the white pith. Dip in your hormone and put into sterile soil if you have it. You can microwave moist soil, covered, til quite hot and that will help sterilize it. I do mix in about 1/3 - 1/2 perlite. Soggy soil is a killer. Put them in bright shade and water at least every other day. Keep them moist but not sodden. If you do 10 cuttings you will get one or two to root. The last time I casually rooted LP, I had 7 out of 10 struck. This is the BEST time of year to root roses. I have had only marginal success after the heat comes, but starting in September, the odds get better and better. I've been wanting to try the potato thing... maybe the potassium helps. Further tips: Some will put them, in their pots, into a plastic bag or into a clear lidded plastic bin. This helps with not having to water as often, but can lead to rot quickly, too. And overheating in our Florida sun I find it also helps me if I remember that plants WANT TO ROOT! Keep trying and good luck!