bump 4.3 reported by USGS at 8:51am 10 Oct 2014 near Cushing

Oh friend, I am so sorry to hear that about your house. I did feel the one this morning right around the time you posted this. I hope someone on here might have some structural advice for you or thoughts on what to do in this situation.

I am sorry. The ones who are profiting should pay for the damage. Is there no agency to contact?

Thank you for your kindness. There are advocates. They met in Oklahoma City today, in fact. Most do not wish industry destruction, but accountability. As in .. give us time to brace ourselves and help those in need. It will all take time.

I apologize for my rant. I was very upset this morning. I think we've concluded our best happiness is somewhere outside of Oklahoma if we cannot get the house stable. These are the final straw after a decade of inherent corruption and lack of accountability on businesses run amok. I love capitalism and once believed in American exceptionalism. But one cannot have liberty without justice. And for justice there is rule of law that must be enforced.

Biz and corruption is everywhere, but at least we can move to a place where home remains a haven and safe from earthquakes. Now that I'm calm it makes me sad. Oklahoma is the cheapest or one of the cheapest places to live relative to nation-wide the property values. It's next to nothing in comparison to most. With earthquakes I grimace when thinking how much more devaluing will occur. At that time those wielding more powerful voices will chime and resolutions will come. But these things take place too late for the poor who end up being collateral damage (from whatever it is that causes this imbalance). Maybe the big one will never hit. Or maybe when it does the president will call it a national emergency and help fund those in need (One can hope?). It's all just human nature, I suppose.

Today was hard because it rained a lot. The garden was too wet. I've grown accustomed to hiding there for calm. :)

bon

So sorry Bon. I have lived at the mercy of others actions on and off for years and when poor as you say it leaves one with few options. Oklahoma seems to have a lot more help for struggling people than other states, maybe its just a matter of getting ahold of the right people. I don't have answers but I encourage you to keep your head up and your hope strong.
I too am in a struggle right now but keep my focus on my little man running to me yelling pakpak which means granny in his language. Stay focused and do some research. That always helps me to keep pluggin along
kim

Bon,

I am a civil/structural engineer. I don't believe the foundation problems you describe have anything to do with earthquakes. The damage you describe sounds pretty typical of a settling foundation due to shrinking/swelling soils or just plain settlement over time. My house is only 15 years old and I have had to put 15 steel piers underneath it.

The drought we are in has not been kind to residential foundations. A lot of the clay soils in Oklahoma shrink as they lose moisture content. This causes the foundation to settle which in turn cause cracks in foundations and walls. It can make doors and windows stick or inoperable. It also causes walls to be out of plumb and can really mess up a house.

I am sorry for what you are going for. I would recommend calling several foundation repair companies to see what your options are.

There is broad agreement by US and European scientists that hydraulic fracturing does not cause earthquakes. However, there is some evidence that some (not all) disposal wells can cause earthquakes.

Whatever the reason, OK has more earthquakes than it used to. Smoking does not cause lung cancer. My friend has cracks in his foundation and cracked plaster and a door that won't close. It is not because of earthquake, it is the clay soil and maybe the house was built on fill. There was lead mining in the area also.

He lives in Joplin and we felt one of your earthquakes a couple of years ago. If we ever do get an earthquake (New Madrid is our risk), I am sure the two problems will add up to a big problem. If chickencoupe has damage due to clay soil, the earthquakes can not be helping. People are responsible for the many earthquakes and if the profits from that business are necessary, provisions should be made for those who are harmed.

She indicated no money to get a structural company to fix the problem.

Bon...is it possible for Habitat for Humanity to help? Or maybe another similar organization? No house in Oklahoma is built for earthquakes anf really not for tornadoes either. Building codes need to be tightened up across the board.

OH, OSUEngineer ...

THANK YOU for confirming that leaving Oklahoma is the BEST option.

I'm am respectful of certain persons with whom and for whom I have worked. I have met some very shady people that helped me decide to do something else. Being a female working in AEC requires a weird attitude and serious emotional fortitude. After I became acquainted with the construction manager overseeing Stillwater construction including Boone Pickens, I was done with the field. That was the last straw. At that time, I was attending the college of architecture after being laid off from the tech bubble and the financial scare of 9/11 along with ALL THE WOMEN. Job prospects were for basic red-lining jobs that competed with degreed persons, such as yourself. That's how I ended up nearby in Cushing. After I met Jim, I was done. Everyone REALLY gave him a hard time (including myself) for moving Hall of Fame to which he screamed "I'LL PUT IT BACK!!" And he did. Just like he said. He hated how the local media spelled his last name wrong. Brilliant manager. Contract managers on that scale can only be geniuses. I'll never know how they do it. Architects of old once held that responsibility until the laws changed. And I'm glad they did. That was messy. If I saw him on the sidewalk, though, I would not acknowledge him. Nope.

Before the lay off I recall working at Atkins not five feet away from Greg Helms (AIA) while he was working on the Stillwater High School and probably others as they all look familiar to his design. After I hit the college, I had no idea how popular Greg was. He was a double major and excelled, apparently. If it comes down to it, I will call him and ask ...wow.. it's been a very long time. And most of these don't work on residential. It's a pain in the butt, I know.

Otherwise, everyone else whom I knew is either dead or retired. (I'm pushing 50).

So, yeah. I know all that you mention. And much more.

I need the calcs. I have concern with the existing load bearing that is not normal. At some point a long time ago they widened the cottage and replaced the roof appropriately. But they did not remove the trusses for the old roof. Yeah. That.

If push comes to shove I could dig and pour my own piers at the load-bearing points. And they'd probably be over kill, a waste of time and an off chance they'd be egregiously wrong. But it's the little things.. shoring up the footings (and replacing some with real footings) and all those little bolts and braces that need to go into the crawl space. I've looked it up via california publications but all those are for newer homes, not partially renovated cottage that were once single shot-gun homes for roadway personnel to bunk over night. And blah blah.

You get the picture.

I don't have the money to hire someone. Ergo, I'm asking. BUT I do have the skills and knowledge to make a review very easy and simple.

I've used your onion method and it worked very well. And I thank you for that!

bon

Helen... you're right. It's a combination of things and the quakes are not helping. The quakes are.. probably gonna "finish it off". And with all I know, that's what makes me worry. Ignorance is blissful, ain't it? LOL

Lisa, you know... that thought occurred to me only after I made this post (in emotional haste). I need to check into it. I guess someone would really need to have superb reason to move to Oklahoma from another state since Oklahoma has the most tornadoes per square mile than any other and now the most earthquakes. What a thought! Bill and I casually discussed the "what if". So, we have a tornado shelter. That's good, right? But what if .... How dreadful. gaw lol

I need to stand firm on something. There are changes as a direct result of the quakes which have been proven to be potentially related to the fraking industry. These damages have appeared following the onslought of quakes in 2014. If a third party were responsible for the quakes, (I'm not saying here that they are) my being too poor to shore up the foundation of my house because of pre existing conditions does not absolve that third party.

My stuff may be worthless compared to other people's stuff (lol). But it's still my stuff and no one has a right to destroy it. True, but funny! hahaha

Thanks everyone for responding. I appreciate it. And I apologize for bringing politics.

OSU Engineer, I don't want you offended. My experience bears no reflection on you even though you are in the field. If I offended, please forgive me. In my opinion, if you work directly with OSU, you must past stringent criteria and are probably well-rounded, stable and polite. I am merely an outspoken person that worries too much. lol

I don't work for OSU, I just went to school there. I don't know Jim or Greg, in fact I try to avoid architects as much as possible.

The best I can tell from what you have written is that you don't need blueprints or an engineer. It sounds like you have a failed foundation that is really messing up the rest of your house. I hope you can find someone who repairs foundations that can donate some time and materials

All I'll say is I'm not convinced the earthquakes we are experiencing are generating forces large enough to damage things on the ground. I know of a at least one old brick chimney and some masonry at St. Gregory's in Shawnee.

Everyone wants to blame hydraulic fracturing, but it's been around for years and there has been plenty of research that shows that it doesn't cause earthquakes. Disposal wells have been around for at least 50 years as well. My opinion is that certain disposal wells with a certain amount of volume in a certain area can cause earthquakes, but it's on a case by case basis.

Exploration and production companies gain nothing by possibly causing earthquakes. They are actively working with Oklahoma Geological Survey and the USGS to figure this out. I don't see how putting all those people out of business along with all their employees would help anyone. I think a solution can be reached, but it will take time.

I'm glad my onion method worked for you. I made $50 off of maybe half the onions I grew this year. Next year I want to double or triple that and get the kids involved to help them learn about work and money.

I realize people are employed in this industry and that it is important for OK. We are all using energy more than ever. Some of the profits should go to compensate the people hurt by the earthquakes though. I am more concerned about the ground water than earthquakes. Stalling and denial let them go on making money and doing what they please to the environment.

After having some things brought to my attention privately, i feel it is necessary to delete my post.

I wish everyone the best of luck.

Blessings

Erod

This post was edited by Erod1 on Mon, Oct 13, 14 at 10:12

Unfortunately, the earthquakes started at the same time as the extreme droughts so it is difficult to reach conclusions about what damage, especially in the newer houses, is caused by the soil vs earthquakes.

Bon,

I am sorry for your troubles and hope you can find a workable solution to fix your house and give you peace of mind.

On the issue of fracking and earthquakes, I worry more about the water disposal wells and their impact on our environment than the actual drilling/fracking itself. Having lived in this region (northern Tx/Southern OK) my whole life, I cannot remember any earthquakes occurring in this region in my lifetime (I was born in 1959) until fracking and water disposal wells became so common over the last couple of decades. Of course, Oklahoma historically has had some earthquakes in the past, but nothing like the swarm that central OK has experienced in this decade.

In our county, as I have mentioned several times, shortly after a water disposal well opened up and they began injecting the water into it, earthquakes began occurring in the part of the county closest to this well. While the quakes were small, they were damaging homes. After a few weeks of this, a community meeting was held and shortly thereafter the owner of the property where the water injection well was located voluntarily closed his well. He stated that he didn't think the well was causing the earthquakes but he would close the well anyway, while reserving the right to put it back into use if he chose. I watched this carefully and with great curiosity, wondering if the quakes would continue. They did not. So, cause and effect? Coincidence? Does it matter? It certainly matters to the people who no longer have to worry about earthquakes damaging their homes or causing things like TVs to fall off the wall and land on their children or bricks to fall off their chimney or whatever. This man is a local businessman and a very good man with a reputation for helping his community and, although I do not know him, his actions were consistent with the way I believe an honorable businessman would behave and I admire him so much because he closed down that well. I will be disappointed if he ever reopens it. Of course, there are other fracking operations in our county and other disposal wells, but there have not been any other earthquakes here. We're generally too far south to feel the earthquakes that occur in central OK, though I felt the two bigger ones a couple of years ago.

One thing I find really interesting is that even the head of Exxon, who lives in Denton, TX, a couple of counties south of the TX-OK border, has been fighting some fracking operations in his neighborhood because the water tower that will be used to contain water for fracking operations will spoil his view. Really? He doesn't mind spoiling other people's land, water and quality of life but he objects if similar operations spoil his view? I hope he lost that battle to keep the water tower out and I hope it spoils his view. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I try to avoid political discussions here since this is a gardening forum, but I'd just like to say that I hope Denton County passes the fracking ban they are trying to implement---and then I hope that ban holds up in court, and I hope it starts a wave of similar bans across the region. If they can make it happen in Texas, then we can make it happen in Oklahoma.

Many of us here in this state depend on well water, whether it is from private wells located on one's own property, or larger wells used by water co-ops, water districts, or municipal water operations, and we all lose if they contaminate the ground water because that's the water we use every day.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Exxon CEO Fights Fracking Operations in his Hood

What worries me is that highly populated area get water from above ground and treat it. I hope enough people are concerned about ground water to fight for it.

Dawn,

I've read a lot of the things you have written on here about gardening and it's obvious your knowledge of gardening is excellent. However, I've got to disagree with you on this.

Why would you want to ban hydraulic fracturing and put all those people out of business? Those people are your friends, family and neighbors. They support their families with the good paying jobs created by that industry.

Why should we import oil and pay people in other countries who hate us and seek to harm us? It makes no sense.

Instead, why can't everyone work together on this problem so it can be worked out and solved without knee jerk reactions, like bans on hydraulic fracturing? Some companies are starting to recycle their waste water which allows them to use less water from ponds, creeks, lakes and wells. It also leads to a lot less fluid being put into disposal wells.

There is no credible evidence that hydraulic fracturing is causing any earthquakes. ANY oil well is capable of contaminating the ground water, it has nothing to do with how the well is fractured. There are thousands of feet of rock between where the fracturing is happening and the groundwater. If the well is designed or constructed incorrectly, then yes contaminants could enter the ground water from the well. Unfortunately, contamination has been occurring long before the current exploration techniques we are using today.

I do believe there is a link between some earthquakes that are occurring and disposal wells. It has to be looked at on a case by case basis just like the example you stated in your post about the disposal well that was voluntarily closed by the owner.

I get so tired of hearing the hippie malarkey line of "it's the corporations man".

Just my 2 cents

OSUEngineer,

I really don't think you and I disagree on the issue all that much.

I never said I personally wanted to ban fracking. I don't care either way. The companies will get the oil and gas out of the ground one way or another, and since we all use the energy products they generate, we need to accept that. Unless everyone is willing to switch to only wind-power, solar power, vehicles powered by renewable energy, etc., then we all need to accept that fracking is here to stay.

I said that I hope the people of Denton pass their no-fracking ban. Why? Because everyone I know there wants it, and that is how a democracy works. If enough people are against the fracking in their community and if their state laws allow them to ban it, I think that is their perogative if they choose to exercise it. Do I think it will pass? Probably not. And, if it passes, will it hold up in court? Maybe not. But, in an ideal world, for the sake of all the people in Texas who have unusable water now coming from their wells, etc., I'd like to see some solution that doesn't destroy their well water. If the residents of a county could ban fracking and could make their ban hold up in court, then more power to them, but I doubt it can or will happen. If it did happen, though, it would give other residents in other areas at least a bargaining chip to get the energy companies to work with them instead of just shoving their fracking methods down everybody's throats. Still, even if I'd like to see it happen as a method to effect change/improvement, I don't think it is likely.

In a small community in Texas just a couple of miles from where I grew up (and where my mom and brother still live), some folks who have had oil and gas wells put in very close to them sometimes can set their tap water on fire with a match as it comes out of the faucet. Do you want to be that family? I sure don't. They had no issues with their well water for decades and then the energy companies put in the oil and gas wells and now their well water is ruined. Those few families aren't the only ones. That is a recurring tale in Texas, where fracking was taking off and getting big about the same time we were buying property here and building this house and moving here in the late 1990s. Before I saw those stories on once-wonderful well water that had developed all kinds of issues after fracking moved into their neighborhoods, my attitude was that the whiny homeowners needed to get over it and get used to the noise, the lights, the increased traffic, etc. because the wells are essential to life as most of us live it here in the USA. Once I saw repeated news coverage of water that tastes bad, smells bad, catches fire, etc., I had to feel a certain degree of empathy for those families. They were there long before the fracking operations moved in and ruined their water and their peace and quiet. So, can I understand that they feel their lives have been ruined? Sure. They are better people than I am because they are fighting it. I probably would sell the place and move farther away and try to find a nice, peaceful spot where the energy exploration wasn't taking over the neighborhood.

There are lots of people in my particular county that are making money off the current energy boom. Some of them are making tons of money, often after an entire lifetime of barely getting by in farming and ranching since there's so many bad years interspersed with the few good years. Good for them. I just hope that all of us won't look back someday and have regrets about the methods that were used and the effects they are having, will have or may have on the earth years and years from now.

In the perfect world I'd like to see, energy exploration and extraction would be quiet and clean and it wouldn't interfere with the quiet, peaceful, easy-going lives that many rural and semi-rural residents were seeking when they chose the property they live upon. That's what I mean when I commented that I'd love to see Denton County's ban pass and positively influence other counties in Texas and Oklahoma to seek control over their quality-of-life issues IF they feel they are adversely impacted by energy exploration and extraction. The reality, though, is entirely different. All of us are dependent in so many ways on the oil and gas industries and their products and by-products. Are we willing to completely change our lives to live in a perfect, ecologically-pure world. Not at all.

Not long after we moved here, a new oil well was drilled less than a quarter-mile to our southeast. I have never once complained about it. We knew this was oil and gas country when we moved here. We knew that our own property once had an oil well on it several decades ago. We didn't really foresee that fracking would follow us here from Texas, but then we weren't that surprised when it did.

I hope the industry is willing to work with residents, researchers and government entities to find ways to remove the oil and gas from the ground so it can be utilized without continuing to contribute to the earthquake swarm. Is that a realistic hope? Probably not. I don't necessarily expect a big quake is just around the corner for Oklahoma either---but none of us can know that either way. I think the uncertainty is what really bothers folks in the areas where the swarms are occurring.

I actually think the recurring drought years we've seen in the 2000s may have contributed a great deal to the problems. Our soil has been so much drier for so many drought spells in recent years, and you know how much drying clay contracts and wet clay expands. All of that has to be playing a role in things. It is unfair to solely blame the fracking. I can see with my two eyes the way that the recurring drought years have caused some structures to shift and crack, even roadways and bridges to crack and require repair. So, I imagine there is damage below the surface of the ground that is similar, even though we cannot see it. Maybe that shifting soil plays a role in the earthquake swarm in central OK too.

All I know for sure is that in our county, when the landowner closed that water disposal well, the quakes stopped. So, in that one small part of our county, the closure of that well might have solved the problem for the local residents, at least temporarily. Is it a permanent solution? Probably not. Other water disposal wells are coming into use and not necessarily all that far from the one that was shut down. Here in this county, people who were experiencing the quakes are relieved that they stopped, but understand that there's no guaranteed that won't start up again.

As a homeowner, would I be frustrated if we were having earthquakes here in our neighborhood that I believed were damaging our structures or that could potentially damage our structures in the future? Of course I would, but we'd just tighten up the budget and buy earthquake insurance and then hope that we'd never actually need to use it. What other choice does a homeowner have? There's risks to one's personal property everywhere in Oklahoma----tornadoes, derecho winds, microbursts, severe thunderstorms, monster-sized hail, wildfires, flooding, ice storms, etc. Fracking and its effects on ground water and possibly on earthquakes is just something else to add to the list. If I ran the world, I'd ban all the above....and then, what would we have to talk about, without all the wild and woolly weather that so often wrecks our gardens and/or homes? I guess we'd talk about the nice weather and how perfect our gardens always are. (grin)

There's a certain image in my head of the way I wish the world was, and there's the certain knowledge of the way things actually are, and I understand the difference in the two. I doubt anyone actually ever will be able to ban fracking and have that ban hold up in a court of law, but I support the effort of those folks who want to go that route because it is their lives, their homes and their community and they have a right to try to do what they think is best for them and their community. Having said that, they need to put their money where their mouths are---if they are against fracking, they need to be switching their homes and communities to renewable energy. Otherwise, their actions seem hypocritical to me. Here in our country, we know that individuals just have to put up with inconveniences that bother them at times for the sake of the greater good, and I feel like that is the situation we all are in with regards to the energy industry. Sometimes you just have to take one for the team. We may not like certain methods the energy companies use, and we might wish that things were different, but we all need that energy which they produce, don't we? All of us would love to live in a perfect utopia where everything is exactly the way we think it should be, but that's not realistic.

Dawn

Gosh D A M N. I got my post removed because I mentioned how wretched Mary Fallin was. Whoops.

And, I forgot to say that when I first saw the title of this thread, Bon, I thought to myself "Hmmm, that thing....?" and tried to guess what thing in gardening was that thing no one wants to talk about.....squash vine borers? spider mites? moles, voles or gophers? Drought? Fusarium wilt? Then I decided maybe you meant that the first dreadful, heart-breaking, season-ending killing freeze that signals the end of most of the green season and the beginning of the brown season.

Then, because I am physically closer to Dallas than to OKC and because I have a family member who was involved in an Ebola scare there maybe 6 weeks ago, I was sure you must mean Ebola. Then I clicked on the post and saw you meant earthquakes. I think that earthquakes as a topic no one wants to talk about was one of the last things I would have guessed, maybe because everyone down here talks about them. But, we are talking about them from a distance so to speak. Most of us down here are too far south to feel the daily shaking, quaking and rumbling y'all experience in parts of central OK on an almost-daily basis. We only feel the really strong ones like those two a couple of years ago that we did feel here. Then, of course, one part of our county had them for a couple of weeks after the water disposal well opened, and everyone here talked about nothing else but those at that time, but the problem was solved pretty quickly and conversation moved on to other issues.

I cannot imagine what it would be like to experience the little quakes on a regular basis, but suspect I wouldn't like it at all. I don't know what solution, if any, will be found for those of you who have to put up with them. Because it is hard to scientifically prove a definitive cause-and-effect link between the earthquake swarm and mad-made activity like fracking and disposal wells, I don't know if there ever will be a solution. I grew up in Texas, so always have lived around oil wells and one thing I know for certain is that very few individuals have the resources to fight an oil company, much less to win that battle.

Despite all the weather-related or climate-related hardships Mother Nature throws at us here in Oklahoma, I love living here and I think that, for my family, the answer would not be to leave. We moved here and built this place intending for it to be our forever home, and we still feel that way. I say that, though, from the viewpoint of only ever having felt 2 earthquakes here. Y'all have to do whatever you feel is best for your family. I hope you can find a way to stabilize the underlaying structure that supports your home so that you can find peace and contentment, but if that is not possible and you feel you no longer want to live in Oklahoma, then y'all have to do what you believe it best for you and your family to move elsewhere, I hope you know that I support you in that.

I think I could be happy living anywhere as long as I had a spot to grow veggies, flowers and herbs, but having found this spot here and having put all these years into improving the soil and building all the fenced garden areas and all the little structures we have in addition to the house (the barn/garage, potting shed, two chicken coops, green house, etc.), I cannot even imagine packing up, moving away and starting over someplace else. It would break my heart.

CopperPennybath, Politics probably are a discussion best left for places like the Hot Topics forum---that is why it was created by the owners of Garden Web and I think that you probably could talk politics there (though I've never tried it) without having those posts deleted.

Dawn

Wow, I guess I should be glad I moved from Oklahoma, if quakes are becoming a daily thing in central OK.

I wonder when the New Madrid fault with activate and shake us over here ?

Yeah, I stepped away and mulled this over. I wish I hadn't posted. At times my conscience was over-bloated as it shouldn't be here and I was afraid to look and see if I started a fight. BUT I had to be fair to myself. This is not something trivial. It's earthquakes, for goodness sakes! And we're not familiar with them. It's only human to overreact, be emotional. And the first things that usually occurs is blame. Humans like to blame. That doesn't mean the industries discussed aren't responsible.

The fact that all their wells are lined up along the major and minor fault lines is disconcerting. The negative reports across the country, and other well-documented disasters from the fracking industry is something to really fight against as the fraking industry expands. And I'm betting each business within the industry has their own ethical involvement, some good and some bad.

But, it's hard to prove just as Dawn states. Ironically, a big quake hit on Saturday.. I think it was? >5.0 and I didn't even know about it until Sunday. And we haven't felt a rattle since then. When they intensify to 3 and 4 times a day, quite frankly, I'm terrified. Hard to discipline that. I've enjoyed the reprieve.

But as experience passes and my house is still standing I begin to gain a sense of calm about it. That'll change when we start rocking again. LOL The other day I put it in meditation motion... the earth was speaking to me and I just needed to embrace it while having due respect and taking measures to protect my family as much as possible. (We strapped tall insecure items to support studs, e.g.)

I've been paper trading on the stock market. (I'm doing well.) But among these I find energy stocks. Everything is cheap in energy, of course. But I cannot help but notice all these energy corporations speaking of an oil boom and they make clear claims of "new methods of extraction" to quote. There is much new going on and we're not privvy to that information. At least, I haven't found it. It correlates to the massive expansion of wells within Oklahoma. The methods are cheaper and faster. It makes sense. I fear a rise in the market would increase these activities.

Nonetheless, it's a great time to buy stocks in the energy industry !! Maybe they will, indeed, help me afford to move or repair my home.

Problem solved. ha!

bon

The big November earthquake a few years ago was absolutely terrifying, even here near Tulsa. The sound and the violence of the shaking even this far from the center of it was surprising. I would be worrying about it all the time if I was near the center of where this stuff is happening

I really believe if there was evidence of a cause-and-effect with fracking, we would know and it would be banned in many places, like here. On the other hand, the scientists that we are supposed to trust have been know to exaggerate and even lie in other areas to further their agenda, so you never know. Since the scientist and research people in general would not have agendas lining up with the oil and gas energy, I doubt it though. I think OSU_Engineer summed it up pretty well.

We also need to be really clear about the differences between fracking, water disposal, and drilling in general. My farm was devastated years ago by the wells that they drilled. The remains of wells and the damage done to the well water (at least as told by older family - which you must always take with a grain of salt) has lasted for decades, although the OERB cleaned up most of physical damage even though my older relatives were likely compensated for it way back then. A lot has changed for the better since then.

Lastly, I don't mind being the bad guy here when I think it is needed. CopperPennyBath, if you cannot be mature and nice here on this forum, then you need to leave. Opinions are fine when on topic, but pushing agendas and offending people intentionally is not. I'm sure you have a lot of things you could add to this forum if you would be nice and humble. We on this forum certainly do not all agree on all things, but for the most part we care about each other and see the big picture.

My house sits very near one of the areas shaking the most. I have been unable to get out of my chair during some of the shakes. I have been thrown from my couch while napping.

My single concern is for our descendents. I wonder if they will have enough clean water to live on. We can live without petroleum but we can't live without clean water, wholesome food and clean air.

It just makes me sad every time I think about it. TEARS!!!

*hugs* Mr. Coleman. Exactly!

For perusal

Injection wells blamed in Oklahoma earthquakes summaryReport
K.M. Keranen, M. Weingarten, G.. Abers, B.A. Bekins, and S. Ge
Science 25 July 2014: 448-451. Published online 3 July 2014 (Requires subscription or small fee)

NOVA article that summarizes.

As to hydraulic fracturing causing earthquakes..... forget about it, that's not the cause of the quakes.

Every oil well in Texas and Oklahoma has been fraced. Hydraulic fracturing began in 1947. Whent they found that this completion technique could increase oil/gas production, then they went and fraced every well that had ever been drilled.

Its been done for 60 years. Its simply a completion technique and in no way impacts water quality.

Just plain ole common sense can tell you that, think about it. Every well drilled goes through the water aquifers. Every one of them. How else can you drill a well ? The water aquifers are near the surface, mostly within 1,000 foot. How in the world , do you drill a well without going through those aquifers ?

You don't.

And we've had regulations in place for years and years, that drillers must set surface casing in cement to a depth of 2,000 foot. Been that way foreever and forever in Oklahoma and Texas. That means, that after they've drilled to 2,000 foot deep, they then set 11" casing in place, and they put cement between the outside of the pipe and the well bore.

That has protected water aquifers for longer than most of the people posting on this site were born.

I grew up and was raised in Seminole , OK. There's thousands of oil well drilled in the Seminole field. It was the largest oil field in the world in the 1030s. It produced a lot of the oil used to fight WW II. The City of Seminole gets their water from water wells drilled to about 1,000 foot deep. They have great water, my Mother still lives there. Never had any problem with their water , and thousands of wells have been hydraulically fractured in the Seminole field.

This is ridiculous, anyone who is afraid of hydraulic fracturing, has been heavily influenced by fear mongering of radical environmentalists. The FACTS do not support the fear.

Now, all that said............... oil wells in Oklahoma produce a lot of brine , or salt water, however you want to describe it. And for years and years, this salt water has been reinjected back into the formations that produce the oil and salt water. There is a thing called " waterflooding " , where wells in a field are converted to disposal wells and the salt water from oil wells is reinjected back into the formation to drive oil to through the sands to the producing oil wells.

But about year 2002, the Dept of Energy, in conjunction with the Univ of Tulsa Petroleum Engineering school, tested a process called " dewatering " in Lincoln County. What they did, was take oil from the Hunton formation ( that btw, runs all the way across Oklahoma ) that was heavily mixed with brine ( salt water ) , they brought this mixture to the surface, separated the oil from the brine, and then reinjected the brine into the Arbuckle formation, which lies just below the Hunton formation.

This " dewatering " of the Hunton was new, its only feasible if oil sells for $80 to $100 per barrel, because its expensive to separate the oil from the water.

Even though Oklahoma has been disposing of salt water for the past 80 years, this is different, in that it takes brine from one formation ( the Hunton ) and returns it to another formation ( the Arbuckle ) .

This very well could be the cause of the quakes in Oklahoma.

But its impossible to tell for sure, in that Oklahoma has always had siesmic activity. You may not realize it, but we've always had a lot of quakes. I know this from personal experience from working in the oil fields in the 1970's. Every time we had a quake, the drilling rigs in the area would get their pipe stuck, and the company I worked for, was in the business of " unsticking " their drill pipe.

Its best to leave this to the experts, who have access to much more info than I or you , or anyone else.

But I can tell you without a doubt, that hydraulic fracturing , or FRACKING , as its known in the pop culture, IS NOT THE CAUSE OF QUAKES. Anyone telling you that, is lying to you, and they are fear mongering to push an agenda, most generally, an agenda of climete change/global warming ... and they want to stop ANY production of fossil fuels.

And they lie, cheat, and steal to stop fossil fuel production, they think the ends justify the means, no matter how many good people they slander and damage in the process.

FRACKING is not the problem, even though you've been led to believe that crock of lies.

I will add, that if the people in Denton , Texas ban hydraulic fracturing, they are idiots, who can not think for themselves.

You don't have to be an engineer, to understand this . Just good ole common sense, and some facts about oil well construction, is all you need to arrive at an intelligent conclusion.

Hey, here's how to look at this ...............

If you think, that climate change/global warming is for real.

If you believe that it is man made, and that we must quit using fossil fuels ..........

Then just say it .

Don't run some false narrative, or lies, that hydraulic fracturing is in some way polluting your world, because that is a lie .

Don't offer up some excuse, some false reason, to stop drilling nat gas and oil wells, because you believe that all fossil fuel production needs to be stopped.

But if you believe that climate change/global warming is man made, and you think fossil fuel production needs to be stopped, then stop driving your car and start walking. Quit using fossil fuels. Just stop.

Or else you are a huge hypocrite.

Ride a bicycle. Heat your home with burning wood. Either quit using fossil fuels or shut up.

Its real simple, you can not use fossil fuels and then advocate that fossil fuel production should be halted.

If you want to be poor , and live off the food you produce in your garden, fine ........just don't depend upon anything fossil fuel related.

And I do not buy, not in the least, that these residents around Ft Worth, TX, have had great well water for years , until they began drilling into the Barnett Shale.

What I think happened, is that people found a way to blame their bad water quality on a on oil company, that they perceive had deep pockets , and they could file a false claim.

It was proven in a Texas court, that a resident near Ft Worth, rigged his water well so he could post a video on Youtube, of flames comoing from his well. The people in that area, have always had problems with shallow gas in their water wells, the water well drillers in that area, attest to this FACT.

But these people want to make money off the oil company, Range Resources, and will go to any length to get into their pockets.

This has all played out in Texas courts, this claim of Range polluting their wells, has been thrown out of court, and in fact, counter suits have been filed by Range Resources against these liars, who have have pressed these fraudulent claims.

I mean really, these people are a notch below some lawyer who spends his day hanging off the back of an ambulance, they just lookin for money for nothin and their chicks for free.

And Scottokla, another funny thing here, is you claim the scientists we are suppose to trust, are lying to us ............. well, what about these scientists pushing the global warming agenda ?

I guess you believe those people ?

Hey, they tell us that 97% of all climate scientists say global warming is man made ( but really, when you investigate further, that is not entirely true ) ........... but these guys are not lying , they are telling the truth.

But the scientists that tell us that these quakes in Oklahoma, we really don't know the cause, are lying to us ????????????

Come on now, what does Average Joe suppose to believe ?

+

I know what I believe. Oklahoma having many earthquakes is new and people are causing it. The earth is getting warmer and the climate is changing. Scientists don't have to tell me, I have seen the changes myself. Yes I use energy. We are all causing it.

LCDollar, I think you need to re-read some posts.

Although some here agree totally with you (like me for the most part) and some totally disagree, we usually just dance around the subjects because we want to talk gardening. There are other forums for the other stuff.

I have been dead wrong on a couple of subjects in the past but other posters were kind to me and just posted a few facts that made me understand how off I was. I try to do the same to others without offending, the exception being when the posts are in-your-face offensive from the beginning.

I suggest we do not respond to this stuff anymore and stick to gardening.

LCDollar is speaking truth to power when he describes what went on in Texas.

I wonder what the Vikings who raised cattle in Newfoundland and Swiss farmers in the Alps would have posted on message boards if they would have existed 700 or 800 years ago? Who would they blame the changing climate on?

Actually, there is much evidence to garner both sides. As someone suggested earlier, it's important to do research to weed out the fakers, the money-makers from those from the real deal. Because all of them exist simultaneously. Because most of us don't have time and are reliant upon information brought to us, the fakers incite, the makers get rich (on both sides) and the real deal get ignored.

I try not to connect global warming issues with the fracking issues. Entirely different subjects. On the subject of global warming there are facts and figures support both sides. I have yet to research them. Personally, I think the global warmers are cherry picking their information (and manipulating some).

There is a stark reality that cannot be denied. Fracking is harmful to the environment in many ways. This fact is proven and more proofs are evolving. It's common sense,really. We need these fuels. I don't deny that. But we need justice for those without oversight. We need responsible players in the industry. And doncha know the responsible ones will take advantage and create a monopoly causing us grief in other ways.

Mark my words!

We just cannot get justice without big money.

bon

good grief

Good time to invest? Many oil and natural gas companies are very cheap since [whatever happened last month to the stock market]. SandRidge Energy is a good one. They're all cleared by the EPA and has the governor's hugs. Current stock price is $3.95 with a maximum range to $7.48. Ticker: SD

Only since last month are they a "penny stock", so they're destined to rise, but with their 4th quarterly reports coming up that might change the price either way. They're very experienced at what they do, but crappy management and zilch profits. So, they recently set up in Oklahoma with the governor's blessing. I guess someone's desperate. They decided to drill here after they sold off their Gulf of Mexico and Gulf Coast properties to someone else ..... wait ... something .... happened .... there...

It's true, but I think it's funny. As far as I can tell, they're not connected to BP, but they are/were connected to Occidental Petroleum.

Cheers!

Thanks for the stock tip.