Glenda,

Our back property line is only about a half-mile from the Red River, so we have tons of wildlife here. We routinely see coyotes, and every now and then a bobcat or fox.

I heard cougars for a year or two....roaring....way off down by the river, before I had my first encounter with one. I was outside one night calling our old daddy cat, Emmitt Smith, trying to get him to come inside. (Around here, a cat that stays out at night doesn't live long.) The cougar roared at me from somewhere in the pitch-black night. It probably was within 100' of me, but I couldn't see it. I backed into the house and Emmitt didn't come home for 3 or 4 days, and when he came home, a large piece of his back was missing its fur and there were distinctive bite marks there. I've always wished he could tell me what happened that night. And, how loud was that roar? Two neighbors who live about a mile away heard it and dropped by the next morning to see if we and our animals were OK.

The next summer, I believe, we saw a male/female pair crossing the road from west (the direction of the river) to east going from one ranch pasture to another. Later in the day, they came back again headed to the river. We know that because another neighbor saw them. He didn't tell us about seeing them, though, because he thought we'd think he was "crazy"!

I saw one from 60-80' away earlier this summer...it was right at my garden gate, and I was up by the house.

Seeing this one so close I could almost touch it absolutely terrified me.

To tell you the truth, I have no desire to even go back out to the garden at this point.

I'll keep you posted on what happens.

Dawn

A couple of things:

There are tens of thousands of wild hogs across Oklahoma, in most counties. They avoid people almost as much as cougars do. They are in every county in this area.

There are tens of thousands of bobcats in Oklahoma and they occur in every county. They can be regularly sighted when driving just before sunrise on rural highways and they live even in the wooded corridors of our cities. They take on a variety of appearances depending on time of year and location.

I see coyotes regularly in the fields near shopping centers in Broken Arrow and South Tulsa just before sunrise. They kill more pets and take more pet food than people realize. They are everywhere and have probably been in every one of our yards or along our fencelines this year unless you are surrounded by other houses.

The wildlife dept has never released mountain lions in this state for any reason. Outside of Cimmaron County there are no breeding populations of wild cougars in this state (Cimmaron County is closer to Denver than OKC by the way).

South Dakota has only a few hundred cougars, and the Florida swamps have only around 100 at any time, yet dozens are killed annually by cars in each of those two remote places. If we had any significant population of cougars (outside of Cimmaron County next to the Colorado border) we would have had many turn up dead hit by cars. We have had ZERO. There are only a handful (at most) of wild cougars in Oklahoma at any one time outside of the panhandle.

Ok, so I'm not a cougar expert, nor do I want to be. But I know from having lived in the mountains in Wyoming and going camping in the high country, "they" are there.
When you see these two LARGE yellow eyes watching you from the forest across the creek while you sit around a campfire, and you have two little boys to be concerned about and your sleeping in a tent, and then the fire goes out.....you get nervous, because yes, you know "they" are there and they're watching you. And you can't predict with any certainty what they'll do.

My guess re: Dawn's cougar, or cougars is that it/they were turned loose by persons unknown in the area when they got too big to handle, and not playful cuddly "kittens" anymore.....or that they got loose.

The reason I think that is because of the double visits to Dawn's garden. The seeming familiarity with humans and lack of fear, such as coming close in right in broad daylight like Dawn said.

The other thing is that although there are apparently from all accounts a lot of deer in the area, but this cougar, or cougars doesn't seem to know how to hunt the big game like a normal, wild cougar, so it only goes for the easy kill, chickens and pets. Coming into inhabited areas in search of an easy kill, which would only be a snack to a wild cougar.

Finally, since these "visits" were separated by several months, this cougar, or cougars doesn't seem to be moving on, as would a normal cougar...which others have mentioned is not a normal pattern for cougars. This one, or more than one is hanging around as if it doesn't have the normal instincts of a cougar bred and raised in the wild.

So, if none have been "released",......nowadays, it is not uncommon for some native born moron to import one or two for whatever moronic reasons.

I tend to believe what some would refer to as anecdotal accounts, from folks that actually LIVE in these areas who've seen cougars first hand, rather than "official reports.

Barbara

I find myself checking this thread a couple of times a day to see if anything else has happened! I hope they catch something. Who is setting up the trap? With the rain there in the last two days there should be tracks around.

The problem with sightings is that they are almost always wrong. Sign is never wrong. Sign is the key. Sightings happen all across the eastern US but other than the occasional released "pets", there have been none there for a century. Plus, more sightings in Oklahoma are of black ones than any other color but there has never been a black cougar. The experts can be wildlife department people, true trappers, or cougar support organzations. All three of these groups agree about the status of the cougar across our area.

ok -Scott - I may have been wrong in believing my DH when he told me of the "release', but HEY! I'm a city girl just adapting to this country life and he's my go-to source. I don't believe he would EVER intentionally lie to me. But he is a bit gullable at times so....

Didn't mean to try to spread fear....just wanted to share what I thought to be a valuable bit of info....and for us reformed city girls...sounded like something to me! Sorry, didn't mean to add to any anxiety that Dawn (and others) are feeling about these threatening visits.

Still just gives me the creeps. I, too, check this thread a couple of times a day...and what's up with that? There are recipe swaps and seed list to focus on that are much more of an "upper"!!!!

I'll be interested to see what they find. Like I said during the time I was raised in NM I can only remember seeing a lion twice. Saw a few more kills than that. And usually they moved on. The one did kill a yearling we were taking care of. My Dad and another cowboy along with others went looking for him. We saw him briefly on the other side of the canyon. He made a few more kills and was trapped if I remember correctly. That was probably over 45 years ago. We lived in what they called the foothills. My uncle managed a ranch a big river split for 30 years and think during that time had less than ten come through. Like Scott has said they were usually young males out looking for new territory. Was never no breeding population there. The trouble ranchers had then was like Dawn said if the work got around the towns about a sighting there was those who would flock out to that area and cut fences and anything else to gain access. And shoot anything moving. So like I've said before most ranchers back then tried to keep it quite. Unless they have grown accustomed to the population in Dawn's area and have made a change over time sure not acting like any I've heard about. Dawn keep us informed of what they have to say and find please. Jay

Dawn, You might need one of these holsters. I have one and I like it. Mine doesn't look exactly like this one, but has a tab strap at the top to one side. When you pull the tab it unzips from both directions at once and gives you quick access.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fanny pack

The story about the wildlife dept releasing cougars has gone around for a long time. It seems reasonable on the surface. I jope I'm not coming across as a jerk.

I live between some "mountains" and the Arkansas River. Three years ago when our house was finished, my builder told me that a neighbor half a mile up the creek had sat and watched a bear in his backyard near the creek for 10 minutes just a week or so before we had that conversation. A few days later I saw the bear about 250 yds away along our treeline where the bottomland starts. It was gone within a few seconds. I excitedly told my wife about it that evening. The next day I saw it again a little closer to the house along the fenceline. I grabbed my binoculars and it was just a REALLY large black dog in the tall grass. I did some research that evening and found that the bears had never been seen west of Muskogee or anywhere close to me. Thank goodness my wife had not repeated my story before I "updated" her.

My eyes had played tricks on me based on my taking other peoples accounts at face value. I'm not a stupid person, but I was pretty sure it was a bear. Those other people probably did the same. (By the way, my builder told me he once saw a black cougar and it's young near his barn on his farm). I just want people to have a better understanding of these animals and their true ranges so they have more objectivity when these things come up. When I had not taken the time to learn the facts about some of these animals, I tended to go along with everyone's story that I heard if it sounded plausible to me at the time.

The game warden people made the trapper arrangements and then the trapper rescheduled for tomorrow, so I don't know if the trapper will be a state employee, a contractor or what. I should know by tomorrow night, because they're supposed to be here at 6:30 p.m.

One thing I don't understand is that if the trap is baited, then won't the trap attract all kinds of things? We have all kinds of wildlife....coyotes, bobcats, raccoons, foxes, possums, skunks, armadilloes, ringtail cats, etc. What's to keep these animals from getting caught in the trap?

As far as tracks, Scott, we aren't having the rain that many of y'all are getting. Our pastures are concrete-hard clay with big cracks in it and lots of brown grass and forbs. (I'm going to start whining about drought and our KBDI numbers if it doesn't rain pretty soon.) I don't know if they'll find tracks there on that hard ground. They might find something on one of the trails in the woods north of the garden if they take the time to look and if they are brave enough to go in there because the woods are full of snakes.

I know what I saw and it was a juvenile cougar. For heaven's sake, it was 6 or 8' away from me so it made quite an impression. I might be mistaken about a wild animal at 100' or 100 yards, but not at 6 or 8'. In fact, I wish I hadn't seen it. It 'haunts' me....I can't get it out of my head. I see its head, its tail, the expression in its eyes as it saw me. (I saw it first and froze in place, then it saw me and did the same.) By the way, a lot of people here don't call them cougars, they call them "long-tail cats" or "big cats" to distinguish them from the more common "bob-tail cats" or "bobcats". The first time someone told me they'd seen a "longtail cat", I said "A what????"

Today, I did go out to the garden to work and I took dogs, a gun, extra ammunition, my cell phone, a fire radio, and a big metal fencepost (so I could knock it upside the head if the gun misfired or something). Then, I had to make a return trip to get my gardening tools and some bottles of Gatorade. Then, I tried to forget about the cat and just do my work in the garden. We already have the fanny-pack gun holsters since Tim is a cop and carries a gun 24/7.

By my count, from talking with just a few people, here's what's been lost this year along about a 2-mile stretch of road: Us: 1 cat, 26 guineas, 6 chickens, Tim's best friend lost one small dog, a neighbor over a mile north of us has lost about a dozen guineas, a neighbor about a mile south of us has lost 13 chickens and our next-door neighbors have recently lost 1 cat. That's a lot of animals to lose in one year and I certainly didn't talk to everyone that lives along our road or the two roads that intersect it. Those of us who have free-range poultry (and at our house, they no longer free-range) might lose 1 or 2 a year, or 3 in a bad year....compare than to the 12 or 13 or 32 that we've lost this year.

I'll keep y'all posted on further developments if there are any. Tonight, in fact, all my dogs are insane. They keep jumping up and running to the door and barking hysterically, but when we go outside nothing is there...at least nothing that we can see. Usually when they are this jumpy, there's deer or something outside, but we haven't had deer around in about 10 days.

Scott, A couple of years ago we drove to Durant to take DS's then-girlfriend to lunch. On the way there, we saw what looked like a big bear cub dead beside the road. We didn't stop to check it out, but we sure were wracking our brains trying to figure out what it was. On the way back home, Tim stopped to look at it because he just had to "know" what it was. It was a big black pig. While he was standing there looking at it, an SUV pulled up beside us and the driver said "Is it a bear?" LOL I think it interesting we both thought "bear" (which, as far as any of us here in our county know, we do not have in southcentral OK) and it was a feral pig. It did look like a bear though.

Our builder's framing crew was from Oregon and they kept telling us over and over and over again that they'd always thought Oregon had big bobcats, but that the bobcats in Oklahoma were huge! One guy said there was one bobcat that would sit in the woods and watch them work and he kept saying it was the biggest bobcat he'd ever seen. I didn't think much about it at the time as we were still living in Fort Worth. Knowing what I know now about young cougars having spots, I'll always wonder if those "huge bobcats" he described might have been juvenile cougars.

Dawn

I've heard the stories about mountain lions being released here is KS. I have a coworker who has a relative who works for the wildlife department in another state who said that they traded some lions for some turkeys from KS. I'm not saying I believe it as rumors tend to get started. I will say the area of KS where he said they were told a few would be released was where one was found and confirmed not long after. The problem I see with the story at first glance is it was a younger male and he said they traded both. I think it was a coincidence. But it sure helped flame the rumors and stories.

In Dawn's case I would be concerned and don't blame her for being extra cautious. In most cases I've seen the lions do less damage than the public who flock around if they know about it. In the one case I'm posted about before the gawkers and so called "hunters" made a rarely traveled road through ranches look like a highway with the traffic one weekend. And we had a pasture the road ran through and had a yearling shot. Also other ranchers along that road had some hit and crippled. I don't blame Dawn at all for wanting to avoid that. This was in the 60's and sad to say that people are as bad if not worse today. And like I've said after that experience most ranchers in the area adopted the policy better to shoot and kill or scare as too let it out one was in the area. If he is already dead no need for them to come looking. But again I will say in this case I'm more concerned. At the least these she has seen are more comfortable around humans than has been normal in the past. Whether due to adaption or being released we won't know till they are caught. And hopefully that will be soon. I'm not sure what kind of trap he will use. If it is the leg trap many used to use with bait it may catch other animals also. Just hoping it is solved soon so Dawn can get back outside and start breaking out that added room she is going to need for all those tomatoes. Jay

Jay,

Nothing bothers me more than the thought of careless people running loose with guns.

Several years ago I was down near our big pond in the afternoon when a bullet went whistling by my head. It missed me by inches. It came from the north of us and I always suspected some kids who lived about 1/4 mile north of us were out on their property carelessly firing a gun, but had no proof. Long after those people moved away, the guy who owned the place between that place and ours told me a bullet came whistling by his head one day when he was up for the weekend and he went and found those kids out with a gun and gave them and their dad a good talking to. A lot of people have no idea how far a bullet can travel and that it can injure or kill someone.

I am very concerned about this cougar's atypical behavior. Tim pointed out to me that we've had bobcats sitting inside the veggie garden before....just sitting and staring, although I'm sure they were hunting. He thinks the veggie garden may be attractive to predator animals because it is also attractive to small prey-type animals who come there looking for food.

Tim and I have worked on the edge of the woodland between the garden and woods for several hours this week...taking out some small willows and cottonwoods that had sprouted on the banks of the small retention pond at the NE corner of the pond, cutting down some pasture grasses that were about waist-high between the garden and woods, even cutting down some of my flowers (4 o'clocks that were 5' tall)--all in an effort to give me a better view of the woods so I can see anything coming out of the woods. We still need to weedeat some of the brush that springs up on the edge of the woods....but I encountered a snake while weedeating and that was the end of my workday. (I still have a lot of city girl in me.)

The "new" garden is going to be about 100 yards west of the present garden, so it will be behind the house, between the dog yard and woods. The clay there has a little sand in it, so it should be easier to work with than the clay elsewhere on the property. I had originally intended to move my Three Sisters Garden there and grow only the corn/beans/pumpkins there. Now, I'm thinking I'll just make it a bit larger and put in one teeny little row of 'extra' tomatoes. I should feel safer in this garden since the dog yard will be adjacent to it and anytime I'll be outside, so will the dogs. This one will have an 8' tall fence to keep the deer out and probably an electric fence outside of that fence. I want it to be raccoon-proof.

Dawn

Dawn your garden maybe like springs in the canyons in NM. That is where we would find the kills many times. And not always lions. But in the arid conditions of the foothills the springs is where everything would water in the canyons. And usually if you saw one is was in the area of a spring.

Most game wardens I've had dealings with are very good and will keep things quiet. As best as I can remember they felt a secretary went home and told her husband about the lion sighting. And the word spread like wild fire. And there are always those who have no respect for anyones property. Yes I agree many give no thought to how far the bullet will travel. I've seen hunters not only hunt without permission but fire shots hoping to scare deer out. And not shooting at anything in particular. Riding during hunting season in NM made you nervous. And it hasn't got any better. i could tell many stories my uncle told during the time he was manager of a big ranch. As soon as they hear he has been killed or captured then they will usually back off. Till then they all want to the the one who shot it. Jay

The more I read the postings in the thread, the more I believe someone thought it would be cute to have a pet...and then didn't keep up with it. I fell for the story of the Wildlife Dept releasing some and I also fell for the 'mountain lion on the patio' e-mail that went around some time back. I've attached the link I found on Snopes that gave further creedance to Scott's earlier post and Jay's recollections of their behavior.

Scott - no you didn't come off as a jerk! Just stating the facts that you knew were true!

Dawn - so glad that DH is taking steps to make if safer for you. I'm sure he values the life you two have created down there. But the snakes....I'm with you. That little bitty thing on the patio the other nite just creeped me out and I know you must have encountered a bigger one in the brush. My little creepy thing followed me tonite from the drive to the back deck. Danged good thing I had shoes on (not flip-flops)but I guarantee you I was very fast and light in my sprint to the porch! All the rain we've had here has made it impossible to get out and mow so the grass is good cover for creepy things including voles! I've stepped in too many soft spots...so unlike the Wonderful Returned Soldier, I don't walk barefooted in the grass.

And YEA for Jay's new keyboard! It's the little things that we all rejoice in!

Here is a link that might be useful: patiomountain lion

OK Scot, If it is really a cougar we can try to make special arrangements for the truck with the cage, to drop by your house. LOL

Too many people are protesting too much on this one, and I'm not sure why. How can so many people be wrong with the identification? The Ardmore paper had an article on them not long ago and many people claimed to have seen them.

So many people seem to base their "non-existance" on the fact that they have never been there before. That just doesn't hold water with me. I grew up in those woods and in those years there were no deer (except Lake Murray Park). My Dad was a big bird hunter, but I never saw him get a wild turkey. I grew up with bobwhite quail and bullfrogs, now they are mostly gone because of egrets, which were not there then. Wildlife has changed a lot in my lifetime. I have seen bobcat there, but have never seen a cougar....does that indicate that it doesn't exist? Not in my mind.

I guess until we see proof we just have to consider that "the jury is still out" on this one, but I'm not ruling it out.

Soonergrandmom,
There is no doubt in my mind that Dawn has saw one. If I came across as a doubter I didn't intend too. All I'm saying is that the behavior isn't what I remember and been told. But through my life have seen many animals change to survive. In our recent droughts I've had deer come up to drink out of the horse tanks and to eat hay from the stacks. And know they can change their diet to what is available. Since I've lived here I've never seen one. Has been some reported sightings and know a few young ones have been spotted and caugth over the last 30 years just south of the station I take care of. But I'm guessing it is only 40-50 miles down the river from the Kenton area. Used to be a man just west of my station who had dogs and traps and hunted any cats that were in the area. Know maybe 15 years ago that they found a kill close to the state line that him and others said was a lion kill. Of course when that got out there were sightings everywhere including the edge of town here. As far as I know they never found it. So whether it went back or what no one ever knew. But personally I have never seen one here. And used to cowboy a lot in this area. So I agree with Scott that many sightings are false but Dawn was too close. I'm just hoping we find out if it is a wild one or a tame one released. As if it is a wild one it will show how they have adapted. Jay

No Jay, I was just razing Scott a little. Dawn, isn't old enough for "senior moments" so I'm sure she knows what she saw even though she was freightened.

Check out these pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cougar

Soondergrandmom,
Thanks for the pictures. Looks a lot like the area where I was raised. Rough and big canyons. And the pictures give a very accurate impression of a lion. Even at a distance they can be quite impressive. Like I said I just never saw or heard of one being aggressive towards a human when I was a youth. Usually it was deer and cattle they attacked. Do know of one instance where one got a colt and tore the mare up a little. And heard of them around a few cow camps up in the foothills but not down off the caprock. Jay

I will tell you that a lot of the people who live near me claim they have seen lions here along the river and near our mountains, but I strongly doubt that they have. This doubt still doesn't stop me from using my tractor and box blade to scrape bare a long stretch of ground along my creek and check for tracks occasionally. Even if 99.9% of the sightings are false, that still leaves a few that are accurate. We know there was at least one lion roaming north central OK last year and I'm sure they will pop up more often in the future.

I don't doubt Dawn either. That is just too close for someone with her experience to not know what she is seeing (but I will hold out that it might be a non-native cat instead of a lion, although I hope it is a true wild, native cat even though Dawn may not like that). If my wife had reported it, though, I would doubt it! My wife's cousin is a game warden here and he had a lady call at some time a year or two ago and say she was looking right at a lion in her yard. He told her to go ahead and shoot it which she said she would and then hung up. He never heard anything else about it.

I think back in 2003 or 2004 a lot of states including ours passed stricter regulations on big cats kept as pets so that everyone has to have a license and they cannot be sold to anyone without a license. Texas has a little bit stranger laws than us which leads to them pretty much outlawed as pets in some places now, but a similar policy on the state level. Missouri is the state near us that has had the least restrictions and they have also had the most non-native cats found loose. In some places there was a spike in big cat evidence found around that timeframe but it has died down a lot since then.

Is that trap out yet?

P.S. There are already probably 3 or 4 people who lurk on this board that are trying to find out where Dawn lives so they can get the first shot at it!

Just Kidding!!!!!

I certainly believe OD or any reasonable intelligent person can tell the difference between a cougar and a yellow dog.
(Especially when your only 6' to 8' from it.)
To those who are so quick to suggest mistaken identity,
I would suggest that we give honest people the benefit of the doubt, I think many of you are like me and wonder
why some people are so quick to cast doubt on such claims.
Oh, and be careful, if you provide the proof they want, (a dead body)You will be lucky if you don't get arrested.

And as to weather or not the federal goverment, or state, would reintroduce animals into the state without our knowledge, Well--------------,
lets just remember what someone once said, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

In our county seat at McAlester local politicians are constantly getting in trouble over open meeting laws.
I say this just to show that politicians are constantly trying to hide some of the things they do weather they need to or not, after all (according to them) we really don't need to bother ourselves they'll take care of everything for us.

And by the way I do believe we have a few good politicians at all levels of Gov, but-----just a few.

Jay, I have thought about that. Every wild animal on the property tries to get into the garden and sometimes they succeed, so it is logical that their constant presence would attract anything that might prey on them.

Also, our proximity to the Red River, which lies to our west, south and east seems to 'guarantee' that we have a constant migration of wild animals. They "normally" stay fairly close to the river in the very wild bottomlands that in general are so heavy in brush that they are impenetrable (for humans, at least). However, as hot weather dries up the vegetation and constant predation decreases the number of prey available, they move more into inhabited areas adjacent to the wild bottomlands....and we are in one of those inhabited areas.

Carol, I don't even think "frightened" begins to cover it. LOL I was far beyond terrified, horrified and just plain old shocked.

While my eyes were telling me what I was seeing, my brain was saying "this can't be happening, this can't be real, I know they're here, but they wouldn't stroll across our yard in broad daylight....", except of course, it did.

In my head, I tried to "make" it be a bobcat because they are fairly common here and seeing one of them at least woud "make sense", except it was too large, wasn't spotted, didn't have a bobcat head or ears, etc. And, now having seen one up close walking through the yard, I know I would never mistake one for a dog or vice versa because their whole body moves in a different way. It wasn't just walking....I don't know how to describe it....it was creeping stealthily through the grass, turning its head slowly from side to side scanning the surrounding area. There was an inherent "wildness" in the way it moved its entire body that I can't describe very well, but when you see it, you know it.

One of the many things about this encounter that doesn't make sense to me is that I was right there in the garden picking okra at the northeastern edge of the garden, and it came out of the woods on the northeastern edge of the garden. So, I can't imagine it didn't see me before it left the woods and entered the grassy front pasture that lies between the street and the garden. And, if it knew I was there, why did it come out of the cover/shelter of the woodland and enter a recently-mowed pasture? Perhaps in that moment when I left the okra, walked across the garden and out the gate, it lost sight of me because of the tall tomato plants and figured I was "gone". And, the two of us wouldn't have seen each other if I had headed west from the gate to the house, but instead I headed east to look at the flowers.

Carol, I don't know how close you grew up to Dolese Rd. or Oswalt Rd. but that's the area...between there and County Line Rd. (and presumably on both sides of County Line Rd. west of I-35) where they've reportedly been seen and heard since last winter.

I looked at the cougar photos and had an odd reaction. My heart starting pounding and I had the sudden urge to flee. LOL I am sure it is just a ridiculous reaction to having seen one up so close this week, but I didn't know looking at a photo of one would bother me that much.

Jay, Except for the one that screamed at me (more about that in a minute) in the dark one night, I have never worried that one would come close enough to bother me. Clearly if this one had wanted to come after me, it could have, and it didn't....and that, at least, fits with the conventional wisdom that they don't attack humans.

Scott, In an odd way, my "experience" with cougars goes back to my earliest childhood, but it is in the oddest way possible....via television.

I was born and grew up in Fort Worth and lived there until we moved here. When I was a kid in the 1960s and 1970s, many local businesses in Fort Worth used panthers, aka cougars, pumas and mountain lions, in their advertising. I am sure they were using trained panthers because they always turned toward the camera, snarled and screamed/roared on cue. The reason was that Fort Worth was known for decades as "Panther City" or "The Panther City" so lots of local firms played that up in their ads. You don't see much of the Panther City stuff in Fort Worth any more because the chamber of commerce began re-branding Fort Worth as "The City Where The West Began (or Begins)" in the 1970s when I was in high school. So, that panther roar/scream has been imprinted in my mind since I was a wee child.

On that winter night....and I am guessing it was in January 2003, but I don't keep a diary and didn't make a written record of it, when the cougar roared at me, I instantly knew that sound because I grew up listening to it. Granted, it wasn't a total shock to hear it, because I'd heard it very faintly from the direction of the river the winter before, but I NEVER expected to hear it up close and personal. I also can tell you I avoided stepping outside after dark as much as possible for months after that.

Having heard the cougar screams that year, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that they exist in our area, even if only as a transient population. That, plus the repeated description of sightings by people that I know are nice, normal, level-headed folks, combined to perhaps prepare me a little for this summer's sightings...although nothing truly prepares you to see something like that somewhere that it does not belong and should not be.

The trap is out and it is a live trap. Beyond that, I'm not going to say anything because it probably is better for the process if the location not be made public.

No one here in our county is known to have pet cougars, but one neighbor tells me that there is a big cat refuge near Wynnnewood.

Okiehobo, Many people here have been told so many times that they "couldn't" have seen what they know they saw that they won't even discuss having seen a cougar any more, even though they know they saw one.

Most folks here do exactly as Jay says. They shoot it, or at least shoot at it, if they get a chance and they never tell anyone. They don't want the hassle of dealing with government officials, would-be big game (LOL) hunters, photographers, gawkers, etc.

Y'all, I have thought long and hard about the two cougars (or, two sightings of one cougar) in our yard that occurred on June 30th and then this week, and here's what I think.

I think that "it" or "they" have been here since at least January. That's when our little Maine Coon Cat, Gizmo, disappeared and our chickens and guineas began disappearing. It also is when our cats began acting 'funny', and not in a humorous way. They've always roamed all over the place, but in January almost every one of them stopped roaming at the same time. Different cats had different areas where they like to hang out. Willie, for example, liked to hang out down around the big pond while Fluffy liked hanging out in the woods south of the house. Now, they all stay close to home and only go 100' or so away from it, which is totally different from what they used to do.

The cats also used to hang out in the yard a lot, but now they spend much of their outdoor time on one of the porches or the patio or in the grass right beside them. Clearly something has scared them enough that they have completely changed their behavior pattern. They also used to stay out until dark and now almost always come in around 3 o'clock whether it is hot, cold or perfect weather. They now like to climb a tree and sit on the roof of the house, which they've never done before. I could go on and on about the drastic change in their behavior, but you get the idea. You have to ask yourself what has caused the drastic change in their behavior.

I think the cougars have preyed upon our once free-ranging poultry and our cats. Just this year, I know of over 50 chickens or guineas taken from just 3 homes, and 2 cats and 1 small dog. Another neighbor has lost numerous barn cats, although some of them disappeared while still small kittens, so it could have been raccoons preying upon them.

I think I saw two different cougars. The one in June was longer. It had a longer body and tail and might have been slightly taller than the one I saw this week. It also still had its baby spots, so we know it was fairly young. (Not a cub, by any means, but still a juvenile.) The one this week seemed not quite as long and I didn't notice any spots. It even seemed a tiny bit shorter in height. So, my best guess is the one in June was a juvenile male and the one this week is a female and, perhaps, even the same age because maybe she only recently lost her spots. I don't think this week's is the same one as the one I saw in June though.

If I had to formulate a hypothesis to explain why they are here and why they are hunting in daylight hours and letting themselves be seen, here it is: They are young and most likely lost their mother before they had become skilled hunters. Left to fend for themselves without her guidance, they haven't really learned how/developed the skill to take down a deer (deer population seems huge here this year, so they are plentiful), so they are relying on easier prey....free-ranging poultry, pet cats and small dogs. Undoutedly they are taking small wildlife like rabbits too.

Because we had free-ranging poultry in three homes in this area, they have traveled here and hunted here repeatedly and, to some extent, have a certain comfort level with following certain trails, etc.

I'll add this. The first sighting that occurred here, the cougar came out of a pathway through my forest of four o'clocks that sit under the pecan tree. I never gave the pathway a lot of thought, but just assumed it was a dog, cat, deer, racoon, armadillo trail, etc. Tim and I didn't walk through there (too snakey!) but we assumed that trail was a wild animal trail. After I saw that cougar, the trail wasn't used anymore, and the short plants that had been trampled underfoot have regrown and the trail is a trail no more. So, I'd guess it was a couger trail and because I yelled at that cougar and scared it off, it knew for sure it had been seen and stopped using that trail. If other animals had been using it, would't they have continued to travel the trail, and wouldn't the pathway still be there instead of being reclaimed by the four o'clocks?

And, if this cougar or cougars has traveled this land for months and feels comfortable here, then it might not be as worried about walking along the 'new' trail at the eastern end of the garden this summer. While the corn was tall, I couldn't see outside the garden fence to see anything there, and it probably couldn't see into the garden for the same reason. So, seeing me there on Sunday (I've recently removed all the corn stalks to replace with a fall planting) may have surprised the cougar, and it may now 'abandon' this trail and travel via some other trail.

All I know is that I want for it to be over. I want for the cougar to be found. I want it trapped and removed, or shot and removed, or whatever. I just want it gone. I want to be able to work in the garden without having to carry a gun out with me. I want for the cats to be free to roam. I don't know that the poultry will ever get to free-range again though, because that seems too risky in light of this year's troubles. I want to be able to walk the dogs in the morning or evening without worrying that we'll run into an unwelcome guest. I want for things to be normal again because, if this week is "the new normal", then I don't like it one little bit.

Dawn

Dawn,
I'm sorry for your anxiety and fears - but I do understand. I have/had never been afraid of dogs, I had a respect for dogs but always had a good relationship with dogs - then I was attacked by a neighbors pit bull (wasn't hurt - after the 3rd time I shot it), but for many months after that I stayed nervous and wary anytime I stepped outside. Noises and strange movements in the corner of my eye made me shaky and jumpy, I couldn't concentrate on what I needed to do - I always looked "around the corner". An experience like that destroys your inner peace and then you doubt yourself because you are afraid and don't want to be - I've always thought of myself as strong and independent. They will catch or kill the cat and you will recover your peace - just keep hanging in there - and be alert and careful. Don't know about you but I'd still rather deal with a four-legged intruder than a human.

Dawn, Sorry the pictures bothered you but I wanted everyone else to know what they looked like and to realize that they look totally different from other animals so they could understand what you were up against. I used a link so only those that wanted to look could.

You're not very big so from the edge of the woods you probably looked pretty small, but upclose and "armed" with that dangerous bowl of okra, and screaming like a girl, you must have been really theatening. LOL It least you scared him away and we are glad you are safe.

Actually Dawn, I lived in Wilson during my childhood, but my grandmother lived just north of the Reck Cemetery, and I had other relatives that lived on that same road all the way down to the Love County line. No hills there, just lots of sand. In high school, I lived near Lone Grove and walked alone all over 80 acres looking for the horse, picking up pecans, or checking on cattle. My sister's family live east of Lone Grove (as you know from the tornado) and have lived there for a century. My girlfriend and I rode our bikes all over those county roads. We still own a piece property in the Cheek area which is another place people are claiming to have seen cats. I am fairly familiar with all of Carter county.

We have had four delicious canteloupe from your vine and I checked one yesterday afternoon that I wanted to pick but it hadn't yet slipped. Well, something beat me to it and I found it this morning with about a fifth of it eaten away. It was growing outside my fenced area and we know we have had an amardillo in the area. I scraped out the seeds before putting it in the compost pile, so at least I got some benefit from it. I am carefully watching two more that are almost ready. At least I don't have to worry about a cougar.

Farmgardener,

Thans for understanding the nervous feelings. I understand that feeling a bit anxious and jumpy is normal. I just hope it passes quickly because I feel pretty strong and independent too most of the time, but not this week. On the other hand, DH thinks I did just fine and says he doesn't know if he would have stayed as calm as I did at the time....and he has been a police officer for 28 years! (I think he would have been fine, but he's not so sure. LOL) Truthfully, you never know how you'll handle an animal attack until it happens. It did take every bit of inner strength I had to back away calmly instead of turning and running.

I understand about the dog attack fear too, especially with it being a pit bull. I am glad you were able to fight off the dogs and protect yourself. We had some neighbors a few years back that had about 15 dogs and let them roam wild. A couple of times, while out walking my own dogs on leashes, we were attacked by 3 or 4 of those dogs. Thankfully, I was able to fight them off with rocks and fallen tree limbs picked up along the fenceline. After that I always carried pepper spray. Tim went walking with me once and carried his off-duty gun and fired a warning shot into the ground when the dogs came after us. If the dogs were just being territorial and protecting "their" property as we were walking by, that could be understood up to a point. However, they'd follow us all the way to our house which was about 1/4 mile or more from theirs, so they clearly weren't just being territorial. If you tried to talk to the dogs' owner, he just said "Shoot them, if they're bothering you". What a sorry excuse for a pet owner he was!

Carol,

It's OK. I wasn't upset that you posted the photos or even upset that looking at them made my heart pound. It was just surprisingly to feel my body have a heart-pounding "fight or flight" response to a photo since I know logically a photo won't hurt me.

You know, a plastic bowl of okra pods is not a very intimidating weapon, is it? I feel better now with a gun and a knife. I decided a knife in the garden was a good idea if the gun misfired or if I dropped it or something. I'm turning into a regular Davey Crockett or Daniel Boone out there. All I need now is some homespun clothing and a coonskin cap. : )

We drove through Wilson on our way back from Lone Grove one day this spring. I like Wilson and I especially love their downtown. I just love old little downtown areas with all the old buildings, and I think Wilson is more attractive than many of the other small towns around here.

And, about those hills.....this spring, there were a couple of really big fires out in the Courtney area. The Courtney fire chief (bless his heart, he IS a great guy and I am not making fun of him!) keep talking about how the fire was getting "up into the mountains" and they couldn't get to it in the fire trucks. I just kept thinking "Mountains? Courtney has mountains?????" and was so confused. I think what you call sandhills (and correctly, I might add) are what he was calling mountains. (grin) I also believe it was the sand itself that made access hard, except for brush trucks with 4WD, and not the "mountains".

It's wonderful that the Hale's Best Jumbo (or Jumbo Best, I can never remember the order of the words) continues to produce well for you. In my garden it has been the turtles....and they only bother that one variety. See what smart turtles they are?

I gave myself a whole day off from the garden today and didn't even open the garden gate. Tomorrow, I plan to be back out early since it is supposed to be cooler. It looks gorgeous outside, but was still kinda hot...about 95 or 96 in the shade, but tomorrow is supposed to be 88 degrees, so I'm going to be a gardening fool!

Dawn

It's always useful to have something in your hand you can throw, even if it's just okra. :)

The more I've thought about these cougars the more I think they may of been watching Dawn for some time and have grown comfortable with her. I've seen wild animals do that before. Especially on the big ranches where only one or two people would be around. If it had been someone else I truly doubt they would of been that close. They didn't feel threatened by Dawn. I've seen big deer eat when we would feed our cattle in the winter right along with them. Sometimes they would stay on the edge. I knew of cowboy camps where all sorts of wild animals including bears and cats would come up and water and even eat as long as it was the same people around. Let a strange vehicle or person show up and they were no where to be seen. In fact I know of one instance where a cats tracks and kill were found close to a camp. Like I've stated before from my observations cats like to make a kill around a water hole ect when the prey come into water. Regardless of how these cats were raised I imagine they have grown to trust her. If she was the type to create noise ect then I doubt they would of been that close. I really don't think they meant any harm. But then you never know so need to be cautious and take precautions. And I would of been nervous also. And animals can pick up on that. My Dad always said animals can sense that so don't get nervous. I got my Mother's nerves. My Dad was said to have veins of ice water. He just didn't show being nervous like I do. I was attacked and knocked down by a German Shepard while walking home from school when I was in the 2nd grade I belive. Mom had to haul me home for a while and till I was grown I liked dogs but always had that fear. Dad could walk right by a dog and then he would bite at me or grab my plants leg. Dad always said it was because they could sense my fear. And I believe that. He said stay relaxed and you will be fine. Easy to say and hard to do. I just pray they catch him soon so some of your fears can be alleviated. Jay

A lot of the thoughts tossed out here make some sense. It will be interesting if they catch it to see if it has its claws. One things is for sure. This behavior is very unusual. If there were wild cougars here in any numbers at all and they behave like this regularly, someone would have taken a picture of one or killed one or trapped one or ran over one or caught one on a game camera before now.

I think that by the end of next summer we will have had a couple of more cougar bodies produced in the non-panhandle part of the state.

Here is an image captured from game camera in south Texas. This is a very mature cougar.

It may scare you a bit. It did me. Amazing how powerful they are.

I'm just now reading this thread, and I guess this is one good thing about living in town.

Dawn, I'm so sorry to hear about Gizmo. We had to put our Coon Cat, Pearl, to sleep this year. It would break my heart to have had her die violently.

About a year ago, we stopped by a yard sale that we happened upon when we were out looking at some property, and visited with the woman who lived there. She told us she had a neighbor that kept wild animals and that they often got out and killed the neighboring pets.

It was the first time I thought about the fact that, in the country, you have less regulation of what your neighbors do.

One piece of property we looked at, a neighbor had a "porta-potty" business on the side and he kept his "equipment" near his fence line, far away from his house but not so far away from the house on the property we were looking at. One of our friends that lives out in the country says his neighbor puts all their junk cars and broken farm equipment and old appliances out in the field by the fence that separates their properties. These are things I guess you just can't do much about when you live out in the country.

I will never forget one of my "city friends" telling me how they were driving out in the country in Osage County one time, decided to turn around and turned into a lane to back out. From out of nowhere came six or eight ferocious dogs that attacked their pick-up and were trying to bite their tires! She said it was really unnerving.

I hope the traps have been set, and like you, I wonder how they will keep everything else out of the trap. Be careful and stay safe.

Jay,

I do think it likely that it has been watching me and that's just creepy.

Back in the spring, several chickens that were roaming around the front yard were taken over a period of several weeks by a 4-footed varmint while I was right there in the garden. I always ran as soon as I heard the squawk, but was always too late to save one. I did see one chicken disappearing into the woods in the mouth of an animal, but all I saw was the right left hip of the animal and the chicken in something's jaw because undergrowth hid the rest. The animal was brown and I always just assumed it was a coyote, although I always doubted my own ID of it as a coytote, because something about it didn't 'fit', including the size, but I never knew what. Now, of course, I wonder....

I do know from experience that some wild animals become somewhat relaxed in the presence of a person that they see a lot. The deer that live here on our property and the neighboring property are very used to me. They bring their fawns to show them off and sometimes they stand on the edge of the woods and just watch me work in the garden. If they are in the pasture feeding and I come outside, they watch me, but they don't run off.

Still, it is creepy to think a cougar might have been watching me.

And, you know, we have a small retention pond at the northeastern edge of the garden, and the cougar came out of the woods there at the dried-up pond.

Don't get nervous? LOL I try, but it is hard. Yesterday, I made myself walk from the garden gate, down the driveway to the eastern edge of the garden about 15 times to 'prove' to myself that I could do it and to 'prove' to myself that nothing was there. I am trying to desensitize myself, so I can get over that heart-pounding fear that I experience when I get to the same place where I saw the cougar last week. The 15th trip down was a lot easier than the 1st one.

Scott, Seeing the photo didn't upset me too terribly much because I have been looking at them a lot the last day or so. After the photos Carol posted made me have that 'fight or flight' reaction, I made myself google, find photos and look at them. It was sheer torture, but I wanted to look at enough of them that I could calm down and not have that panicky feeling. I don't think I am quite there, but I'm getting better.

The one in the photo you posted is huge! Mine were itsy-bitsy compared to that one. Clearly he is a master hunter because he's been eating quite well.

Several years ago, after the one roared at me in the dark, one of Tim's sister sent me a Cougar Calendar as a gag gift at Christmas. It was a gorgeous calendar with cougars in all kinds of natural settings, but I couldn't stand to look at it. It just gave me the creeps

I managed to work in the garden for several hours yesterday without having a nervous breakdown and hope to do the same today.

I think we do have wild ones along the river because we hear them periodically. Prior to this summer, we've only seen them 3 times in 10 years, so they are very elusive (and I like it that way). This summer it is all just wrong. It shouldn't be happening at all, and it shouldn't be happening like this, and I wish it hadn't happened, but I can't 'erase' it as if it hadn't happened because I have to be more careful now than ever.

I want to be able to focus on my veggies and flowers and to be able to do so without worrying about what is lurking nearby. I can tell you, though, that this winter we'll clear more brush away so we can have a better view of what is lurking the woods.

Dawn

Dawn
I can only imagine what you must be feeling right now in view of what you've experienced with that big cat.

Looking back on it, I used to be entirely too complacent in walking unarmed in the mountains where I had built my cabin, with no close neighbors around. Just because you don't "see" them doesn't mean their not there.

I seriously doubt that cat is going to become so trusting of you that he's gonna want to come up and have you scratch his belly.

A cougar is a predator, they don't think like a deer or other non-predatorial wild life. They are stone cold killers and think in terms of what they see
as to whether it's potential food or not. I would tend to think,(in a cougar's mentality) that if they felt you were not a threat, they might be able to take you down.

Frankly, I don't think any of us on this forum are going to feel calm until that threat is removed from you. And even then dear lady, as you now well know, if there has been "one", there will at some point be others sooner or later.

From now on perhaps it will be good to practice the law of the old west, remembering that you are in wild country and ALWAYS carry lethal protection at all times, and be prepared to use it, just as your DH has to do in his line of work. And don't think twice about using it.

Barbara

Barbara,
No he will never become that trusting. LOL. But they may not of felt threatened of Dawn till she yelled and threw her hands up. I will recite another story from my ranch life. Like I've said most everything watered at spring ponds. And that is where many of the cow camps were built due to the water availability. We had more of what the old timers called lynx cats than we did the mountain lions. Not a lot of the lynx but more. And they tended to stay in a general area more. Most ranchers left they alone as long as they stayed in the canyons. They seldom if ever bothered bigger livestock. But would kill a calf or colt. So the ranchers either calved close to the house away from the canyons or ran horned cows who had been raised there and knew how to use them. When it got real dry some springs would dry up. And then all animals would migrate to the water. That is when they would come down out of the canyons far enough to water and cause problems and then have to be shot or removed. I've heard of the lynx cats getting brave enough to attack during the daytime with a rancher watching. Most ranchers carried a rifle or pistol with them at all times so were prepared. And that is what I think may be going on here. They are looking for food and had no reason to fear Dawn as she hadn't shown any reason to. I don't think they ever intended to walk up to her or attack but then I could be wrong. Jay

Jay, Your cowboy experiences always remind me of this story. This has nothing to do with a cougar, by the way.

It is a paragraph from a book, "The Free State of Menard", by N.H. Pearce. It is no longer in print. The army had built a fort and brought in soldiers to a close knit community. The soldiers were all black men and they knew little or nothing about indian fighting. None of this seemed to set to well with the local community so anytime they tried to get information on anything that happened, the community just banded together and wouldn't talk. One time some of them were thrown in jail. This is from that time so explains why they were in the guard house. This an interview with a man at a later time.

"From the general's headquarters, I went to the guard house, where I found Mrs. Jackson and her children, Billy Epps, Mr. Tomerson, Bill Tipton, Tull Smith, the last named being who before that had worked for me and had been severely bitten by a wolf. We were in camp one night, and while he was asleep, the wolf came prowling around and approaching his pallet seized his hand and mangled it badly before he could get loose. He said he could have shot the wolf but was afraid indians would hear the gun and hurt him worse than the wolf."

This was Menard County Texas, and Tull Smith, the man the wolf got, was my 2GGF. He was born in Marion NC in 1833 and was killed by indians in Menard TX 10 Jan 1871.

This was the grandfather of my grandmother whom I knew in my childhood. She told me about her Dad being one of the early Texas Rangers (banded to protect from the Indians), but she never told me about her grandfather having a crippled hand from a wolf, which I found to be much more interesting. LOL

Anyway, I heard about this book and knew my family had lived there in the wild days of Texas. A lady named Wanda Sparkman from Houston knew that I was interested in the book and mailed me a copy to read. I told her I would read it and send it right back, but she decided that it meant more to me than it did to her since my family was mentioned several times. She told me to keep the book and wouldn't even take re-imbursement for the postage. She was a nice lady and that meant so much to me. I learned a lot about several lines of my family from reading Texas history books. Texas cowboys had to be tough.

Ilene,

Gizmo was one of the first animals to disappear, and we just assumed a coyote or bobcat got him. Now, minus Gizzy, six chickens and 26 guineas, and with 2 cougar sightings this summer, we believe the cougar probably got him, but we'll never know. He was our young Coon Cat. Our old Coon Cat, Fluffy, used to be my garden buddy, but won't go to the garden with me much any more. He'll stay up by the house and watch me. Every now and then he'll walk down to the garden with me but he won't stay. I wish he could tell me what he knows...and Yellow Cat is the same way.

It's been a rough week, but I'm calming down somewhat. I did work outside most of the day today, but came in periodically to cool off and I did carry the gun with me all the time. I've pretty much accepted that I can't even walk out for a minute without a weapon, but that doesn't mean I like it.

Barbara, I used to go all over our acreage alone in the winter time, but I don't any more and haven't in several years. And, when we're working in the woods clearing pathways and underbrush is the winter, we always carry a gun. It's just too wild here.

And, even though the deer trust me, I don't trust them. Heck, I don't trust a rabbit. Wild animals are wild animals are wild animals, and you can't trust any of them, and I don't.

I love that you found the story about your 2GGF in that book. Wasn't that amazing? What a wonderful woman that lady was to send you the book and then tell you to keep it.

Jay, You have led such a fascinating life. I would have loved growing up the way you did. I was a city girl, but I always wanted to be a country girl, even when I was very small.

All the ranchers here carry guns all the time. I just always assumed it was because of snakes, but now I realize there's other predators out there too.

Fred tells me he can tell when a coyote has gotten one of his calves versus when a 'big cat' has gotten one. I guess they do something differently? It has been years since he told me what it was, but I think he said a coyote kills and eats and moves on, but a big cat will keep coming back every day and eating a bit more? Well, at least that is what I remember. I wasn't paying a lot of attention at the time because we were new here and I hadn't learned about all the wildlife here yet.

Dawn

Dawn,
I'm taxing my memory now. As that was so many years ago. If I remember right a lion as we called them cover their kill if they don't eat all of it. Scott can correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes I didn't realize what a rare opportunity I had when I was a youth. The area where we lived was bull of history. We roamed caves with Indian drawings on the walls. Used to try to decipher them. Was Indian artifacts everywhere. Just south of the water lot at the home place was an Indian camp ground. There was one down the creek on the ranch my uncle managed that had the teepee circles still there. Was a small salt lake about 10-15 miles from our home place east of the creek. The Indians would come up the Canadian River from the Alibates area of Amarillo where they got the flint and then up the creek and hunt buffalo there. Was also a lot of fossilized bones from years ago. I used to have several and they got stolen several years ago. Still have several of the arrow heads we found and one bigger one. And a few grinding stones. Most were stolen though. I always enjoyed that. The Baca ranch bordered us. It was part of the Baca land grant. Which was a Spanish land grant. Was settled years ago. Many of the buildings were made in the 1800's. A fire destroyed many of the older ones. The church had a floor that raised up and that is where they buried the father, mother and the children. I attended the services when the last daughter was buried. Many of the items came over from Spein. On the ranch just north of us in a canyon was some pueblos built against the walls. There was still enough there you could tell how they were built. There was a big spring at the mouth of the canyon. They built a dam out of the big rocks and used the water to irrigate. You could tell if the sun was right where some of the ditches ran. The theory was a raiding tribe probably wiped them out or a storm.
I will get back on the topic. As you can tell I loved that area. And still enjoy visiting. Pardon my rambling. I'm going to attach a link to a ranch that was south of our home place. And my uncle managed the east end of this ranch. It had been sold off in the 40's I believe. You can see some of the country. This is a little further south and not as cold or in the foot hills as much. Pretty country.
Dawn let us know when they catch something. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Bell Ranch

Dawn - just because you began as a "city girl" doesn't mean you can't and won't end up a "country girl"...at least that's what I'm praying for too. But I'm also praying I can learn from your experience and don't have to face what you've had to see!!!! Jay's stories are so warm and wonderful! I almost have to read them again every time I'm feasting on a roasted pepper!

I digress....and I hope the next week gives us some news from you of a catch! Between grandkids, the garden & work I don't get to post much but I hang on every word you guys do! I'll stay tuned and don't leave out one single event please! Keeping you're continued progress in my prayers. I don't think I'd be so good about getting back out there.

Paula

Well, I just got on the computer and saw a lot of posts had been made to this thread and got my hopes up. Maybe tomorrow!

I think the cougars usually drag their kill to some cover and then take one or two organs first. I can't remember if it is the heart, lungs, liver, or what that they usually go for first. They then cover the kill with debris and stay in the immediate area until the next night. This goes on each night until the kill is consumed. Then they normally would go on about patrolling their territory of 10 to 20 square miles looking for the next victim. They kill a deer or so a week. This state has so many easy-to-kill deer compared to the areas west of us that cougars would certainly be fat and happy here.

The specific way in which they consume a kill, stay with the kill, and cover the kill makes cougar evidence relatively easy to find where they have reproducing populations, especially when they take a cow, sheep, or goat. The rancher would usually know the animal is missing fairly quickly and the search would turn up the kill in the immediate area. Nothing else consumes kills the way cougars do.

I'd say the two best bets are that this is either one of the first reproductions in the area and something happened to the mother before now, or this is a juvenile (maybe declawed) that was released by someone or escaped once it got to a too large a size. These would explain the abnormal killing of small animals and the other abnormal behavior.

Dawn, I think you guys should get a game camera for the back of your property. Even if the cougar doesn't show up on it, a lot of really cool stuff will, maybe even illegal hunters. You will get 30 minutes of great entertainment each week going theough the images.

Scott,
Thanks for chiming in. I was hoping you would. My Dad, Uncle and the other ranchers knew right off if it was a lion kill. And I thought I remembered they covered it. Then wasn't sure and didn't take time to search. A coyote just eats on a carcass where it lays.

Dawn another interesting story to add to my one above. We were always told to stay out of the caves unless some adult was with us. A bunch of young boys now you know what we did. Let me say the only bears I know of in that area were what the locals called cinnamon bears and not real big. And few of them. Anyway we went in this cave and there was a small hole going into another section. About the time I was getting through after at least one other we heard a noise and he thought he saw a bear. Needless to say we left and were a little more cautious after that. The ledges to the caves were a good place for snakes also. They would lay there and sun. Jay

Guys
Sunday, I was looking up some info on the young runner who was killed by a lion in the Boulder, Co. area, because we used to live in that area. My son worked in the foothills and would often walk to work, passing over a bridge with a huge amount of dry bones in the culvert beneath it, some small, some not so small. Anyway, he mentioned to me at the time, he felt as if it were a place where killed prey had been dragged and consumed. He said it gave him the creeps.

What I began noticing in reading the accounts online was that these mountian lions,( they call them there), were frequently coming into the city limits of Boulder. A lot of the California type folks would respond hatefully to some of the posters, telling them if they didn't like the lions eating "Fluffy", they should move to NYC, etc. You know the type.

Well, apparently that mindset has taken hold of a lot of folks and that's one reason we are seeing the increase of predation, not just in Oklahoma, but in states all over the West, SW, N, and NE. And, after extensive reading Sunday, there were several conclusions I came to. One was this, for what ever reason, the wildlife mananagement people are reluctant to make these sightings, (or kills), public. It's almost like-deny- deny- deny.

One forum right here in Oklahoma, and in various parts of the state, posters were recounting all manner of livestock, horses, colts, cows, sheep, goats, poultry and pets attacked or killed. Most of these were farm and ranch owners, credible folks, not flakes. Sensible land owners, like Dawn and her DH and their neighbors. Yet, the "official reports" having gone missing, just like these pets, chickens, etc. Why?

If I can find the one website on these official denials recounted by one website poster, who'd been attacked, I'll post it. In the meantime, I'll post this link to to show the tremendous amount of damage, loss of income, and threats to humans these predators are causing. Not just cougars, but also wolves, coyotes, and racoons. And-if you mention pit bull controls and legislation, PETA starts going ballistic. Obviously, something needs to change, one way or another, and soon.

Not everyone is as fond of allowing this so-called "peaceful co-existence" between man and predator, as these PETA loonies, to continue unabated.

In my own semi-rural neighborhood, just next to a wildlife preservation area, coyotes are destroying pets and lifestock on a regular basis.

When I first moved in here, I walked out the door one day, and was confronted by a wolfdog hybrid. My dachsund was attacked and torn up by a pit bull in my own yard. A year later, I had to fend one off that came into my yard intending to attack me. I grabbed a staff and yelled at it, and slowly made a retreat into my door 10 ft away. My son had to intervene to prevent a pit bull that came out of nowhere late at night intent on attacking his GF in our yard.

Meth freaks and "cookers" in the county keep these dangerous beasts as a buffer between them and the law. An animal control officer told me one they had to kill had some kind of drug in it's system which tended to make it more violent, (I forget the name of it).

I have been angry for years about the lack of controls on pit bulls and wondered how many children are going to be seriously wounded or have their faces torn off because of these dogs. You just wouldn't believe the amount of pit bulls here! Some of them do run loose, and take down calves and attack pets and kids or adults. And then there are the wild dog packs running loose-yet another threat in many areas.

Some thoughts on other personal experiences. When working late one night in my office at the ranch in the NE corner of the state, close to the Kansas border, right outside my window, a wolf began howling. It sent chills through my spine! Not a coyote, a wolf! I could always hear the coyotes yipping from a distance at night, but the guard dogs always kept them away from the cattle and calves, and away from the ranch house where I lived, but this particular night, they were in the garage and noticably silent, whereas, in the case of coyotes, they'd be chasing them off, or answering them back from a distance.

My son hit a wolf and killed it one night while driving close to the Kansas border a few years ago. He got out of the truck to check and see what it was, and confirmed it was indeed a wolf. Not a coyote, dog, fox, or hybrid WD. He said then the thought crossed his mind that if there was one wolf, there might be others close by, and quickly got back in the truck and drove off. He never reported it.

Then, again, he and two friends were driving late at night near Fairland, OK, in NE corner of Oklahoma, when a large long tailed tan cat ran right across the road in front of them almost hitting it. The exclamation from all three at the same time was, "THAT WAS A MOUNTAIN LION!!". None of these guys were prone to making up "windy's".

So, say what you will, but I believe there is an increase of predators and predation, that's largely going unreported by our official wildlife management people.

There is pressure on the same by the environmentalists to allow it to continue. But-at the same time-there is a decrease in wildlife in many areas due to the predation considering the large amount of meat that must be consumed by these predators, and monetary loss to farmers and ranchers from livestock kills, Plus, the increasing threat to humans and pets due to attacks, close encounters, and rabies.

Since a full grown Cougar needs to kill a deer every 7 to 14 days or so, I would rather see specially trained Wildlife Management hunters being allowed to thin overly populated deer herds, and the meat processed and put into programs for feeding needy families, than I would for deer meat to be recyled into Cougar scat. The kills aren't always discovered, especially in the heat of summer in OK, and the fact that Cougars hide their kill, and other scavengers finish off the remains after it begins spoiling, and it's been abandoned by the Cougar. Or, if it's a small kill, they may consume all of it without any remains.

Just my thoughts and opinions, but again, I really believe we need to see more sensible legislation controlling these dangerous predators instead of forcing land owners to have to succumb to environmentalists who don't have to personally deal with the threats or monetary losses these beasts cause.

Like my DS says, if it's on your property, shoot it and give it a decent Christian burial and good riddance to one more killer. This is what we have to do here with feral, and/or diseased dogs and cats that come around. We don't like it, but it is sometimes necessary.

Finally, I read an account Sunday of a man who was attacked by a Mountain Lion, and he said just before the attack began, he was looking at these two yellow eyes, then as the attack began, suddenly the cat's eyes changed to what he said was hard to describe, "Sort of a hateful look". Perhaps the eyes of a stone cold killer,- almost demonic if you will?

And Dawn, I did not post this with the intention of placing more fear on you, but rather to ease any possible guilt on your part of having to destroy "one of these majestic animals", so many are wont to be enamored with. I would like to point out that many of these attacks were made by young cats, maybe 60 lbs, yet with incredible strength.

I know you don't like wearing protection, but better to be safe than sorry or constantly nervous in your own turf.
Just so you know...I don't consider this topic as some sort of cheap entertainment, but very concerned for your safety and that of your family, and neighbors.

I would urge you and other posters here to read from this link, if you haven't already. It's a response to the environmentalist's often-times whacky point of view, that in my opinion has caused some very bad laws to be passed and as a result, some very serious problems along with them.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Wildlife Conservation

Jay, You had simply the most amazing childhood. The history...the artifacts.....the adventures....and the caves! I would have been in hog heaven. Even as a child, I loved all that kind of stuff. I enjoyed looking at the photos and reading about the Bell Ranch. New Mexico is truly a beautiful place and I think you have to travel through it and see it to appreciate it. I've been there several times.....the first as a teenager on a ski trip, and several times to other parts of the state since then.

Paula, I think I am pretty well countrified now compared to how citified I was when we moved here. Still, there are ways in which I am a total failure as a country woman. I don't hunt, don't want to, and have no intention of taking it up. I refuse to cook any wildlife that was once running around on our land. I don't own any cammo clothing and I neither know nor care how to dress a deer, prepare venison or clean a fish. Except for all those blood-and-guts issues, though, I'm a happy camper living here. (Clearly I am much more of a herbivore than a carnivore, at least when it comes to eating something from our land.)

I have completely given up open-toed or open-heeled shoes, including sandals. I wear athletic shoes for everyday, hiking boots for working in the garden and CAT black leather steel-toed work boots when we're working on projects that involved heavy equipment, fence posts, etc. Spiders don't bother me any more, which is good because we have about a million per acre here.

I don't know when, or if, we'll have further cougar news. There was about 6 or 7 weeks between the first and second cougar sightings so it likely isn't passing through our land daily. I am outside a lot every morning and evening in the hot weather, and if it had been around more often, I think I would have seen it.

I had to get back out there pretty fast or the garden would suffer, and also I knew that the longer I put off going out there, the harder it would be.

Today I was in the garden and Tim was out back weedeating and I heard gunshots. The chickens react to the gunshots by getting hysterical. The cats get all wide-eyed and nervous. The dogs get completely quiet. Of course, because I knew he was weedeating in the backyard, I assumed it was a snake and it was. Actually it was two. For a moment, of course, I was hoping he'd shot a large four-legged varmint, but he hadn't.

Scott, I hope I get a photo before/if they trap it. I think I could have stayed calm enough to get one the other day if only I'd had my cell phone with me. Of course, I didn't, so that's a moot point.

Every day I hope for news and there is none. I hope Tim and I didn't cause it to change its routine too much by clearing the brush along the edge of the woods and the garden. That area is wide open now, and it had a little cover before, so the cougar may start taking a different route...and that might take it around the trap instead of near it.

Getting a game camera is on our "To Do" list but I don't know when we'll get around to it.

I was thinking that they cache their kills and on Saturday morning, Tim and I were smelling that horrid odor of a decomposing body, but couldn't tell where it was coming from. The wind was coming pretty strong out of the east, though, so likely the dead animal smell was coming from one of the ranches across the way.

Jay, I've told Tim that if I ever encounter an alligator, wolf or bear on our property, I'm packing up and moving back to Texas. (I don't expect to ever see any of those three, but then I wasn't really expecting to see a cougar either.)

Barbara, I remember when that young runner was killed near Boulder and I think it was about 20 years ago? (Tim is a runner.) I read an article about him several years ago. It may have been in Runner's World magazine or Reader's Digest. That whole incident was such a horrible tragedy.

I think the wildlife people deny because they don't want to deal with a hysterical public nor does the state want to be held accountable for these animals....because if someone admits the large predators are in the area, then everyone expects the state or federal government to be responsible for keeping us all safe, and that is a huge responsibility....and one they can't guarantee that they can do.

A Mountain Lion recently attacked a man out cutting firewood with a chain saw. He tried to use the chain saw as a weapon against the cat but said the saw just bounced off the muscular cat. It is interesting the noise of the chain saw did not repel the cougar.

I like to hear the coyotes yipping and howling as long as they are not right outside the back door doing it. One night, one was sitting in the front yard about 5 feet from the house just carrying on. It made all the dogs (and people) nuts. We had a lot of coyotes in the winter and spring, but none lately.

Believe me, there will be no guilt here if we have to shoot any animal to protect ourselves. That's not even a concern. One thing about living in the country...you learn to do what you have to do. We've had to shoot feral dogs that were inside our chicken run slaughtering our chickens and that's just what you have to do. Feral dogs are VERY dangerous when they are running in packs.

That's an interesting link. Around here, we call those kind of extreme environmentalists "Enviromental Wackos". LOL Most people who live here are rock-solid, normal country folk who love being around wildlife, but don't tolerate dangerous predators. Many believe in conservation and manage their land very carefully to accomodate normal levels of most wildlife....but the predators aren't tolerated abour people, pets or farm animals.

Dawn

I hope you dont think that the cougar WANTS to attack you? What you did was a very smart move. You told the cougar to keep his distance by yelling and all and that is what he did. He stopped in his tracks. I dont blame you for being afraid. I would get one of those hand-held airhorns. Cougar attacks are rare and usually only happen when people run.

Sorry, I just hate to hear about animals being killed just for being around. I hope I get to meet a cougar one day.

good luck to you and your gardening!

Organicmanic - If you meet one I hope it isn't up close and personal, like Dawn's experience.

OK....I apoligize ahead of time, but everything is reminding me of a story I once heard. I did a search and found a version of it on-line. It has a bad word in it, so if you are bothered by that don't check on the link. Otherwise......have a good laugh!

Here is a link that might be useful: Black bear vs. grizzly

Dawn,
Just a quick comment here regarding the Cougar's cache. They do drag off and hide their kill, as opposed to a coyote, but when and if it starts to decompose before they've finished it off, they abandon it and begin a new hunt. and leave the carcass for scavengers. The odor you smelled may have been from that, or it could have been something else entirely.

The other thing, is from what I understand, a Cougar will make about a 20 mile loop or circuit, (normally). So, you might be on the lookout for him to complete a circuit, and then come back, checking to see if there's anything new on the menu. You may hear of your neighbors having new visits in that parameter.

Then, you may have scared the daylights out of him when you yelled at him, and he may not be so bold as he was last time, especially since you're keeping the chickens penned up. But I would be especially concerned about the house pets, and try to keep them close if possible.(Of course, we know your're already doing that!) That thing has already done way too much damage, (your nerves included.)

He may also sense something "different" than usual with all his cover gone and be more alert and skiddish to those changes in his environment. Good.

One of the things that really bugs me about Cougars, is that like a house cat with mice or birds, they will kill just for the sake of killing, without need. There have been occurances of that.

I guess that was a "quick comment", for me at least, lol.

Barbara

Carol, I just now noticed the new post, since I was fixing late dinner before I posted mine. Maybe it's time to start a new thread, and wait anxiously for Dawn to give us updates. This one has started drawing flies.

Barb

Carol, I just looked at your link! ROFL!!!!!!!! How appropriate to the occasion.

Anyways, his/or her post was a perfect example of the kind of stuff we're up against.

Yep, and just signed on today.

Carol,

Well, I guess all we need now is for some clever outdoors outfitter to come up with hiking/hunting type clothing with the little bells sewn on it already.

Tim grew up around bears in Pennsylvania and sometimes encountered them while trout fishing. He says that he always just turned and headed in the opposite direction when he saw a bear, so was able to avoid encountering them up close. If I had seen a bear from any distance, I never would have gone back to that area again, no matter how good the trout fishing was.

Barbara, I know the hunting loop circles back around because we have lost poultry all year regularly....but sporadically. We'd lose a chicken or a guinea, and I'd pen up the others for a few days and then, eventually, let them out again. All would be well for a week or two, and then we'd lose 1 or 2 again and I'd repeat the 'penning them up' cycle. Every time we thought the predator was gone, it would come back. That's why the poultry aren't allowed out to roam around any more.

Last night Tim and I deliberately sat outside from about an hour before sunset until quite some time after sunset. We were listening, in vain, for the howling and yipping of the coyotes. We heard nothing, which is not normal for our part of the state at this time of year. The coyotes are a great 'indicator'. When something scares them off and keeps them far, far from us, then we know that a larger and more dangerous predator is afoot.

Organic Maniac, You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it. Having a large predator frequenting a yard/neighborhood that has cats, dogs, poulty, abundant wildlife and small children is not a desirable event. We have quite a few acres, and our house/yard/garden area only occupy a couple of them. I don't care what wildlife is on the 10 or 12 acres of woodland that we mostly stay out of....but it does matter what is within a few yards of the house.

I enjoy seeing wildlife out 'in the wild' as opposed to seeing it in zoos, for example. There are some kinds of wildlife, though, that you don't want in your yard and a cougar is one of them.

It is easy to romanticize the appearance of large cats in a natural setting, but it is harder to tolerate when they are killing your pets. We've lost 33 of our domestic animals to a large predator this year. In an average year we lose 1 or 2 or 3. You do the math and understand why that predator is not going to be tolerated if it shows up around the house, yard or garden. It is a safety issue.

Does a big cat "want" to attack a human? No. But, there's no guarantee it won't, and we have children around here that we have to protect.

Dawn

I would just like to say I respect all opinions and having grown up on ranches and around cattlemen, cowboys and farmers. I will say most don't kill to just see something die, for a trophy to hang or just see how good of a shot they are. They feel they are there to protect everything on that ranch and farm. Like I was taught in most cases like stated here a lion in our area wasn't a habitant but a visitor passing through. If a visitor to your house comes and respects rules you will probably let them stay and enjoy it. But if that visitor harms your family, home or property chances are you might take some action. In most cases when a rancher, farmer or rural homeowner kills an animal it is because of the danger they pose. In some cases in my opinion the problems are created by humans. Like the release of wolves in a places and on a private ranch in NM. I haven't really kept up with that much but was told by a friend that not long after the release a neighbor had to shoot one. People don't think of the consequences when they release these animals. This includes everyone who does it. This puts an honest, hard working person, animal loving person with a difficult choice. And when he shoots this animal then many choose to crucify him rather than those who contributed to the problem. I just hope if the one Dawn has seen is caught that they admit they have a population and make some effort to control it. Jay

Jay, Even human company can stay until they are a pest, especially if they are eating all your food. LOL

Dawn is the greatest lover of wildlife of anyone I know, and the person who "signed up" just last night so they could comment, just sounded like a trouble maker to me. Dawn co-exists with all kinds of animals, buys them food, builds them ponds, and doesn't let people hunt there. I would hope that anyone that was going to be critical of the situation would take all of those things into consideration.

The time has come to remove or destroy a dangerous animal that has become too comfortable around a populated area. They are working with authorities in just the way they should be, and better than most people would. In my world, if it is a threat to me, and puts my family in danger, and especially if it is on my property, I feel it my responsibility to take care of it, be it man or beast.

I doubt organicmaniac would let someone come in their house and raid their kitchen, and respond by taking pictures and enjoying the wildness. Think about it!

I would love to tell you what I think about a lot of the things happening right now, but Gardenweb has rules and will remove you for talking about politics or religion. You have probably figured out that I have strong feelings about both, so I will only say this. Almost every change that I have seen in my lifetime that created a situation that changed my world for the worse, was created by a liberal point of view. Stepping down now.

Carol
I agree totally with what your saying. Considering the losses Dawn and her DH have sustained, combined with the outright fear, loss of enjoyment, and sense of security caused by these recent events, the neccessity of removing the threat that's encroached on that is entirely justifiable and understandable, to at least some of us.

The problem is that a dangerous predator doesn't observe no trespassing signs, and moves by instinct, which is usually to kill.

Jay, I do "try" to respect other's opinions, but unfortunatly, sometimes because of my own, admittedly, too strong feelings, am unable to. I do understand completely what your saying. I just feel things have-once again-gotten out of balance.

I have to admit also, that I loathe predators. I was raised in the country, and my dad wouldn't hestitate to drop a coyote wherever they showed their heads in his vicinity. I hate the damage predators do to livestock, pets, children, and adults. I hate all of them, and there are many, not just coyotes. That includes venomous snakes as well.

Since all this has happened, I've had to reevaluate my own situation where I live, and after considerable study have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should take some extra precautions myself. My main threats here have been thus far, coyotes, feral dogs,(and cats), pit bulls, Rotweillers, Hybrid Wolf dogs (raised in the area and sold here), badgers, raccoons, and venomous snakes. Now, I've come to realize there "may" be others even more dangerous.
Some say there are no wolves in Oklahoma. I beg to disagree. That wolf howling just outside my window at night at the ranch, not far from where I live now, was not a figment of my imagination.

Some, if not most of these predators also carry rabies or other diseases that may be passed on to humans or domestic animals, not to mention more serious events.

Carol, when I lived in Grove on the lake, my neighbor was continually trapping raccoons. These destructive little beasts are vectors of rabies, and distemper. We had to put down the most gorgeous long haired dachsund over there because mom didn't get her distemper shots soon enough. It's a horrible disease. The possums and coons, as well as skunks are carriers. So are cats, big and small.

Below is a link posted regarding cat attacks in Oklahoma. Yes, some of them claim black cats, but who am I to deny because of "official" reports, (or lack of them) that they don't exist in Oklahoma. After all, when I was a kid growing up in the country in Oklahoma in Kay County, you never saw an armadillo either. Some of these creatures seem to be moving farther north over the years.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Cat Sightings in Oklahoma forum