Hi, we're putting on our dinner bibs and heading right over. Yum yum gimmee some.

I haven't SPECIFICALLY used neem vs hoppers, but I will provide the anecdotal evidence that I spray neem preventatively in my garden (1.5 tsp per quart of water), and I have never seen a grasshopper. No, not one.

I do see bees and bugs and butterflies, so I am happy so far!

Jo

Barbara,

Neem oil is marginally successful with both grasshoppers and japanese beetles. You might as well use a spray of Murphy's Oil Soap and water. I use about 1/2 cup to 2 gallons in a sprayer. It works just as well, is cheaper, I feel safer using it, and of course, you have to reapply it after any rain or foliar watering.

Murphy's is my go-to spray I've used for years as I try to stay organic and I haven't found NEEM to be any more effective. During heavy infestation, I try to stay on top of my spraying as I think it only makes the plants unpalatable to the plague-type insects. It does kill aphids, webworms, and red spider mites.

Marcy

Marcy -
Just for clarification, were you saying that the Neem oil works on webworms, or the Murphy's, or both? We get them BAD in our trees.

In reading further about Murphy's Oil Soap, how do we know that Murphy's doesn't kill beneficial insects as well as bad insects?

As far as that goes, where Neem Oil is concerned, how do we know that it doesn't harm beneficial insects, predator insects that "ingest" bad insects? I just read something to that effect on a garden web thread, (not this one).

I know that Neem oil has other beneficial qualities besides pest control...as a fungicide for example. And also seems to interrupt the insects reproductive abilities. However, I am very concerned about the potential harm to beneficials that ingest bad insects. Lady bugs for example. Insects like catapillers that eat plants like dill, parsley, fennel, etc "may" be harmed, so if one didn't want to kill those it would be best not to spray them with Neem Oil to be on the safe side.

Kelley,
I've had a bad infestation of bagworms and some webworms this year. As far as I know, BT and possibly Spinosad would be the only two things recommended for killing either one. So far, I've made two applications of BT, and think I've got most if not all of them grave yard dead. Just my experience.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: All About Neem Oil

Dawn,
That really does make sense. I agree and for the most part that's the plan I've been trying to follow for my own garden. I'm just not totally "there" yet.

Actually, the only destructive insects I've had show up in my garden were not in the vegetable part but in the trees, (webworms) and evergreens, (bagworms). And a type of leaf miner on my grape leaves that I haven't been able to find to identify.

I did spray BT on the hideous infestation of bagworms because they were everywhere by the thousands, and threatening to kill my favorite evergreen tree, and did damage some of the spreading ones so much that we're having to cut them out. And these were one's that I'd grown for years and had been a real asset to the looks of the landscape :(

So,there is just so far I'll let these destructive worms go before I feel I have to do something. So it was with the bagworms. As you said, "desperate" enough.

As for the grasshoppers, so far they are happy munching on non vegetable plants, and that's okay by me as I've created sort of a zone for them..... but if they start moving onto the tomatoes, or heirloom pole beans,or other garden treasures, then it's either them or me, and it ain't gonna be me.

I did read on one of the links today that a type of clay sprayed on in liquid form, deterred grasshoppers from feeding on plants, and also had the added benefit of creating a protective white film when it dried that lowered the temperature of the plants up to 15 degrees which helped protect them during periods of high temperatures and heat stress. Now, I liked that idea and it wasn't cost prohibitive.

This is the mystery. I haven't been using sprays in the garden, this year or last, except for a little Spinosad on a couple of tomato plants that were attacked by blister beetles, (last year). And to date, for some reason unbeknownest to me, (only the insects involved), I haven't noticed any destructive hornworms, spidermites, Japanese beetles...ANYTHING! And get this, I've only seen a very few lady bugs and dragon flies. Even the dragon flies seemed to have left the grounds. I do see lots of pollinators, bees, wasps, butterflies, etc.

Go figure. I guess maybe things are working as they should for the most part :)

Barbara

Kelley, BT killed some web worms in my peach tree early this spring. One application and they were gone.

Kelley,

Bt 'kurstaki' is a narrow-spectrum bio-insecticide that targets caterpillers and larvae that bother many ornamental and vegetable plants. In a residential landscape and/or home garden, it is often used to control tomato hornworms, tobacco hornworms, cutworms, tomato fruitworms/corn earworms, canker worms, leaf miners and various types of grub worms. It is available in both a liquid form and in a powdered, granular form (Dipel Dust and similar products). I've linked one of the more common Bt Caterpiller killer type products below. Most all of the Bt 'kurstaki' products either say Worm Killer or Caterpiller Killer on the label or have images of caterpillers on the label or both. All Bt products are made of toxins derived from naturally-occurring bacteria.

The other species of Bt most commonly used in a home setting are: (1) the 'San Diego' or 'tenebrionis' species-derived products (San Diego is genetically engineered so it cannot be used in Certified Organic operations, but tenebrionis is not genetically-engineered so it can be used in Certified Organic operations) which is used to control beetle larvae, and most often used to control the larval form of the Colorado Potato Beetle; and (2) the 'Israelensis' species, available as a granular product you sprinkle in standing water or as 'mosquito dunks' to drop into water. It controls mosquito larvae.

One caution about using Bt 'kurstaki' is that it kills ALL butterfly and moth larvae, so be very careful when applying it so it does not wipe out all your butterflies and moths. Many butterfly gardeners choose not to use Bt 'kurstaki' because they don't want to harm the very butterflies and moths they are trying to attract to their plantings.

For webworms, I usually just take a stick (or a long, telescoping pole pruner if the webs are high up in a tree) and break open the web. Once the caterpillars lose the protection of that web, the wild birds here gobble them up. I have a huge bird population here in our rural area, one I have carefully 'cultivated' by feeding them year-round, always providing numerous drinking water sources for them daily and a birdbath as well, and by providing birdhouses for them. If you are in an urban or suburban setting with a smaller population of wild birds, you may not have enough of them around to control the webworms. I think Bt is a wonderful solution if someone needs to control caterpillers, but I don't spray it myself because I like having butterflies and moths around. Some people say you can't grow fruit trees here without spraying for worms, but I've harvested over 350 lbs. of fruit from trees which were not sprayed with anything. Having said that, I don't usually have tent caterpillers (aka webworms) in large nmbers and the few I see (some years I see none) are taken care of by natural predators. I do think some parts of OK have a much more severe problem with webworms than we have here in southcentral OK.

Barbara, Believe me, it has not been an easy choice to refrain from spraying insecticial soap or neem oil, and I'm not saying I'd never, ever use either one or both. For example, neem oil can be very useful in flea control, but my dogs usually don't have a big flea or tick problem, so I don't usually use it for that purpose. (I wouldn't hesitate to spray the ground in their dog yard and the fenceline around it if they did have fleas though.) In a 'bad year' I'll spray the dog yard's ground and fenceline with peppermint soap which is a great repellent. Neem is found in many pet products, including flea shampoos, and I have used those tea tree oil flea shampoos on our dogs in a year when there is a heavy infestation of fleas or ticks. (I've also bathed them in Cedarcide, orange oil-based shampoos and peppermint soap in years like that....2007 was one of those years.)

Bagworms are very hard to control, but I've only seen them one year since moving here, and never since then, so I don't have to deal with them. I generally ignore leaf miners. I've never had them do enough damage to kill a plant or even to significantly harm one.

The kaolin clay products like Surround are very helpful in some instances, but there again I choose not to use them. They make the garden look hideously awful, among other things, and you have to reapply it after rain or overhead watering washes it off the leaves. Kaolin clay reminds me of the old folk remedy of mixing all-purpose flour with water and spraying it on the foliage to keep the hoppers away. I used that in the bad grasshopper years back around 2003 or so, but didn't like the way the garden looked and couldn't tell it made a big dent in the amount of hopper damage I've been seeing. I didn't think it was worth the time I spent spraying.

You aren't seeing a large amount of damage from pest insects because some sort of beneficials are eating them. I have seen huge numbers of insects, but not correspondingly high levels of plant damage. Potato beetles were my worst issue, and I just hand-picked them. My regular garden turtle was very frustrated that he was fenced out of the new potato patch area, and once I realized he wanted in there, I opened the gate and let him in and I haven't had to hand-pick CPBs since. Once he picked that area clean, he returned to the regular garden, leaving me to wonder how he 'knew' the CPBs (or, for that matter, the potato plants) were out there in the new area away from the main garden.

If you aren't seeing significant levels of lady bugs and dragon flies, that means they've gone someplace else where there are more pest insects to eat. The first few years here, we always had billions of beneficial insects of all kinds. Then, their numbers abruptly dropped and I was sort of panicky, wondering what was 'wrong'. Finally I realized they left because there wasn't enough of a pest insect population to attract them. Now I see them come and go, appearing seemingly out of the blue if a pest population shows up like the aphids that showed up on my sugar snap peas this spring, and then leaving when their work is done.

We have many wasps here, probably more than a regular homeowner would be comfortable having around. I am always happy to have them here because they are such great predators, but every time Tim walks out the door, it seems like one stings him (2 or 3 times this week alone). I suspect the many types of wasps are the reason I seldom have problems with caterpillers. You know, logic would tell you that someone with all the nightshade plants I have would have a major tomato/tobacco hornworm problem, but I see, perhaps, 8 or 10 most years and I give the wasps credit for those low numbers.

It has taken me a long time to arrive at the point that I seldom rely on any sort of insecticide and there were some hard years when I worried the natural ecosystem would fail, but it never has.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Example of a Bt 'kurstaki' product

Dawn,
You know I got to thinking about the lack of destructive insects, beneficial insects, and also the lack of disease I've had over the years. After reading your post, I now realize that in past years I didn't mess with the garden at all after planting. Just let nature take it's course. I've now come to the conclusion that's been the reason I've had so few pest or disease issues with the garden, that it seems to balance itself naturally, with the few exceptions I've mentioned.

I've been very leary of buying any kind of additives from outside sources, such as manure, sacked up compost, topsoil, or anything else for fear it may introduce something I don't want, or else upset the natural balance.
Where the soil is concerned, I try to operate on that "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it". Not to say I wouldn't use some of the techniques Jay and you have mentioned, black strap molasses,etc.

I have been making a homemade comfrey brew. Vile smelling stuff but they say it works great as a natural fertilizer. I'm also using comfrey leaves in the bottom of planting holes and on top as a nutrient mulch.

About additives from outside sources;
The exceptions would be that I do have to buy hay for mulching, and soil building, and to put on top of the tons of cardboard I haul in.

I'm trying to introduce more native beneficials and cover crops to my area as I can with limited resources. My DS doesn't seem to understand the concept of using so many plants. He seems to think in terms of "grass", mowing and weedeating, and all the obstructions I put in his way. I keep telling him the more I get a handle on this the less grass and weeds he'll have to weedeat or mow. Then he has the audacity to tell me he "likes" grass. !!

Last year we didn't have a flea and tick problem. This year we did. So, I was glad to see some of your remedies for that. The cats have been bothered with fleas, and I've had 4 miserable tick bites.

I do keep water for the birds in birdbaths, and am thinking about building and sealing a small pond. We have a lot of tree cover for birds, but we also have 2 problem cats that will kill them every chance they get. I won't feed the birds because that draws mice, rats and then snakes. I still see plenty of birds around the garden picking at various things on the ground.

Unfortunately in my small community, the city makes a yearly habit of spraying for mosquitos. I hide in the house at that time when they fog, because whatever they use makes me sick and I'm quite sure it has a lethal effect on birds, bees and other beneficials, and I don't see any real permanent reduction of mosquitos.

Living in a semi rural area in an enclosed neighborhood, we aren't able to attract barn swallows and bats. So, there are limitations to what I can and cannot do here.
We do have a resident turtle who has the run of the place, and also a garter snake that I've grudingly allowed to stay alive. But I'm not seeing the number of frogs or toads I have in past years for some reason.

Sepp Holtzer is my idol, and if I could have lived my dream it would have been something like he has created in the Alps. Now that's what I call sustainable. It does seem to be an idea that's catching on in a greater measure. One can only hope it can keep an even keel with the destructive opposing forces at play.

Thanks again for your wisdom and insights :)

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Sepp Holtzer Video on YouTube

DS and I spent yesterday afternoon cutting out spreading evergreens and burning them.

After two sprayings with BT, the bagworms were still alive and I decided too numerous to be able to control.

In order to save my one favorite upright tree, I made the decision to destroy the rest.

Also, not to plant ANYTHING else that would host these disgusting worms.

Final note, BT cannot be trusted to totally control bagworms. Handpicking seems to be the best control. Yuk! And frankly I have better things to do with my time.

There are other, less risky plants for winter color and interest.

Barbara

For years I sprayed neem oil 70% on my cupheas and roses wihout any effect on japanese beetles. But recently I find out that version of neem does not contain the ingrediant Azadirachta which is the ingrediant that supposedly does kill insects. So to have this ingredient you need the 100% cold- pressed neem oil. Today for the first time I used this spray on a zinnia leaf in which a JB was on it. The beetle immediately rolled over on its back not quite dead legs moving. So Im using this as a test case. I have that Beetle in a jar and that guy is dead dead dead.

I read another story where a test was made on 2 grasshoppers put in separate containers. One with leaf sprayed with an insecticide and the other with neem leaf. Supposedly the one hopper ate the insecticide leaf and died, while the other one refused to eat the neem leaf and died of starvation. I read it doesnt necessarily make it a true story, but it is what it is.

Hello everyone,

I am a former Oklahoman, and grew up on a farm in the Enid area. Spent many years in Norman while attending the University of Oklahoma, as an undergraduate and a graduate student. I am retired and living in a rural area in Kansas now.

I thought that you all might be interested to know that Neem oil is illegal in the United Kingdom. I think that includes Canada. So that UK law applies to quite a few million people. Organic gardeners here in the "States" recommend Neem for pretty much everything, with the presumption that it is "safe". Apparently there is some difference in opinion on that.

When I was a kid on the farm in Oklahoma I shot many a big grasshopper with our Red Ryder Daisy BB gun. That probably wasn't "safe", either. But, contrary to the usual warnings, nobody got their eye shot out with the BB gun. Except for a few extra large grasshoppers.

ZM