If it is the miracle grow organic garden soil, it is mostly bark and should be mixed 50/50 with your garden dirt.I have not tried the organic potting soil.

as far as a potting soil that i have had good luck with, i reccomend the baccto potting mix. it is considered soil less, although it does have a little sand in it along with sedge peat and some lime and a little fertilizer.

I start my seeds in the jiffy mix and transplant them to the baccto and have had good luck.I still give them a dose of peters 20-20-20 water soluable fertilizer at transplanting. so far i have not burned any up. I have probably over a 1000 seedlings in the greenhouse at this time.

I think Beth had a terrible time with her plants dying in the MG organic potting soil last spring, and know other folks have had trouble with it in the past. I bought a bag of it once and it had a horrible smell. I mixed it with something else, and I don't remember what it was...might have been compost or another soil-less mix. I never bought it again.

To save your plants, feed them with a water-soluable fertilizer at full-strength ASAP to get them some nutrition, and then repot them into regular Miracle Grow potting soil or any high-quality soil-less mix as soon as you can. When a plant is struggling, I think liquid seaweed works better than anything else, but fish emulsion is almost as good.

If repotting them is not possible, try to lay a thin layer of worm castings or composted manure on the top of the potting soil in the containers. Then, everytime you water some nutrition will wash down into the soil on a regular basis.

Dawnrenee,

Just a reminder...be sure you ALWAYS and without fail wear gardening gloves when working with purchased, organic potting soil. The organic soils contain manure and/or poultry litter as their fertilizer source, and you can contract nasty, very hard-to-cure fungal infections or bacterial infections from handling the soil with your bare hands. Some of the fungal infections can become systemic and infect your entire body and be almost impossible to get rid of.

Really, you always should wear gloves when handling any soil, but it is especially important if you use organic potting soil or organic fertilizers.

Dawn

I used the organic MG potting mix when potting up at least 150 plants two years ago. Had good luck. Just didn't feel it was worth the extra cost. I did a test on several different ones that year. Last year I had trouble with one commercial mix in particular. I have read where several have had trouble with it and the other MG mixes. The main trouble I've had with the regular MG mix is all the wood in some bags now. If you take the time to remove them then it works ok. I'll be using mainly Fertilome mixes this year. Can't find any Pro-Mix again. I've noticed there is a lot of difference from bag to bag with some brands. And I feel that is why one person may have good results and another poor results. Jay

I bought regular MiricalGro last year for the first, and last, time. I threw out lots of big wood as I filled the containers, but after they were rained on the other wood all floated to the top and looked like mulch. It might have been OK to put a larger plant in, but it covered the surface so the seeds couldn't come up through.

I first noticed all the wood that's showing up in MG last year, but also with a bag of Manure from Attwoods, that looked, smelled, and felt exactly the same as their potting soil - both had lots of wood in them. Its frustrating.

what about the bags of mushroom compost? I haven't tried that.

Betty,

I've never had mushroom compost with big pieces of wood in it, but I'm not saying it wouldn't or couldn't happen.

Dawn

I wonder now if this is not what is going on with my plants. I have one that just looks like it is dying. The others are good, but not getting the same growth I hear others are getting. I used the miracle grow organic. I have not been happy and will never get it again.

It could be. A lot of people on other Garden Web forums had trouble with the MG Organic when used for seed-starting and for growing transplants on to a plantable size last year and maybe the year before. A lot also have used the MG Moisture Control with the same types of issues. If you're going to use MG soil-less mix, just use the regular one and you shouldn't have problems with it.

I've been using regular Miracle Grow potting soil since moving to Tahlequah 5 years ago. When we lived in NJ I would purchase a higher end seed starter, which worked well. But here, well, when I get anything which says that it's for starting seeds, it stunts my seedlings. I guess a damp paper towel is for starting seeds. But it's no good for growing seedlings! I've had the best results with Miracle Grow potting soil. These observations are just from what I could find here in Tahlequah, mainly at Walmart.

Sounds like even plain 'ole Miracle Grow Potting medium is having some issue. Sure hope mine works this year! It's just a little too soon to tell.

George

George,

I have 400 tomato plant and 200 pepper plant seedlings potted up in 5 oz. to 9 oz. paper cups with plain old Miracle Grow and they are doing just fine. I also bought and used a couple of bags of the other soil-less potting mix that Lowe's had....and I don't remember the name of it but it cost a buck or two less per bag than MG...and those are fine as well.

I generally make my own soilless mix for all my large containers, but in a pinch when time is short and I need to get some plants into larger containers, I'll buy the regular MG for them and have no problems with it in that case either.

Dawn

I am using Pro-Mix and have used one feeding of Alaska Fish Fertilizer and mine all look really good, but since I planted late they are all still very small. They have the strongest root system I have ever had for any seedling this size. Of course, Pro-Mix now cost and arm-and-a-leg, but it is really packed into that bale.

I have preferred the potting mix that TLC sells for several years - it always worked equally well for starting seeds and also potting plants. Last two bags I purchased had a lot of wood/mulch looking stuff in it and one bag had a strange smell - I mentioned it to TLC and they said "they use the same stuff all the time and hadn't noticed any change" - I potted some tomatoes in it this year when they got about 3" tall - lost every one of them, however the peppers I put in the same stuff look fine.
Dawn, would you please post the mixture you use - I used to have a recipe that worked, but then got spoiled to having the premixed stuff - no more.

Carol, I love Pro-Mix but seldom can find it here, and I wasn't in the mood to drive all over looking for it at seed-starting time. I don't think it matters that you started your seeds late this year because I feel about 98% certain that the weather will be very cold and very wet deep into spring so all of us likely will be transplanting warm-season crops into the ground later as opposed to sooner.

Farmgardener, I've linked an old thread about growing tomatoe in containers and it has the basic soil-less container mix that I use. You can adapt it to suit you...I adapted it from the Al's Mix recipe on the container formula and fiddled around with it until I got it 'just right' for my typical conditions during the gardending season here.

For tomatoes and plants with similar needs I still use Tomato-Tone (and its formulation has changed slightly since I wrote the original thread) but any tomato-oriented fertilizer would work as well. You also could use any pelleted slow-release non-organic fertilizer in the mix if you are not growing organically. Although the original thread was about tomatoes, I grow all kinds of veggies, herbs and flowers in this soil-less mix.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Old Container Thread w/Soil-less Mix Recipe

I am encouraging anyone who has had their plants suffer like mine have to return the bag of MG organic to Walmart. My bag still has a little left in it. It is cleary an inferior product and I am hoping that if enough people return their bags or at least call the company, this product will no longer be able to give the word organic a bad rap!

I usually get the Scott's potting soil at HD or Lowe's. I have never had any problems with it. It is made by the same company as Miracle Grow, but so far works fine.

I absolutely despise Pro-Mix and will never use it again. After finding many recommendations for it, I bought some about 3 or 4 years ago. It is a dry mix, mainly peat as most commercial mixes are, but I had a terrible time getting it wet. I struggled so with the mix and ended up adding perlite to it because it was pretty much straight peat, I finally gave up and threw the rest of it out. Never again. Went back to Scott's and have never regretted it.

That said, I still add a handful of chicken manure and some perlite to the Scott's in my pots.

I have also used Schultz, but since they have been bought out by Scott's/Miracle Gro, don't know if it is the same or not. It's been a few years since I used it. I used it for wintersowing, and it was fantastic.

Susan

I have had similar disgust with Miracle Grow this season. I just threw the bag I bought last month out. I replaced it with a bag of ProMix I bought at Colebrooks nursery located on the west side of Tulsa and have been extremely pleased with it. I worked in a greenhouse where we mixed our own when I was in high school and the ProMix is very similar in content and texture. It's a good balanced mixture and I have had no trouble with getting it wet. Also, it was very comparably priced to what I paid for the MiracleGro at Walmart - I paid $6.50 for a 1 cubic foot bag of ProMix. I have used Scotts in the past, but don't remember it being good or bad to be honest. I've also been told Sunshine brand is a good one to try.

Jill

Jill, That sounds like a really good price for Pro-Mix. I bought mine in bales and it was quite expensive, but it is tightly packed in those bales and was too heavy for me to lift when it was full. I just dip out a dish pan full at a time, pour water in and stir with a spoon. It is ready to use in minutes. I have been very pleased with ProMix. I found mine at a chemical company in OKC that seedmama told me about. They were out of it the first time I tried, but I was back in the city a few weeks later and they had it. They brought 2 bales to my SUV on a fork lift so they didn't have to carry it. My husband unloaded it onto my wagon and I pulled it to the potting shed. It is heavy, and also big and bulky, and packed so tightly into the bale that I have to use a 3 prong tool to loosen it so I can dip it out. There is a lot in a bale. My transplants had better roots they I have ever had with anything else.

I just don't want to have to work that hard to get my potting soil ready, and the plants I grew did not do that much better, if any better at all, in the Promix than other potting soils I have tried. I am very, very picky about PS, and if it is not moist, crumbly, good smelling (yes!) and appealing to my discerning eye, I simply won't buy it again.

I am glad you all had a great experience with it, and it may have to do with my need for "instant gratification", and level of patience (none) that steers me away from PM. I don't want to have to "make my own" either. It's worth a few extra bucks to open the bag and voila! my mix is ready for the pots, after throwing in some manure and perhaps perlite depending on the plant.

Susan

I used a 3 cubic foot bag of Sta-Green potting soil (from Lowes) yesterday and it was as good as I have ever used, at least as far as texture and appearance goes. It cost just under $10 for 3 cubic feet.

I think I will give the Sta-Green a whirl, too, so thanks for the tip, Scott.

I'll put my vote in for Sta-Green too! I just bought a 1 cu. ft bag for potting up seedlings. I didn't have but maybe 5 wood chips in the whole thing and they were little. The 3 cu. ft is a better deal, but heavy for me. I only paid less than $4 for my 1 cu. ft. bag.

Paula

Oops! The Sta-Green is actually $10.75 for the 3 cub ft bag at Lowes. I bought another bag today to do the rest of my tomatoes. The bag is very heavy, like Paula said.

I think that is the one I bought last year after I vowed never to buy MG again. It is probably as good as any you can buy at the big box stores.

Hi,

This is the first time I have actually tried to start from seed indoors.

What about those pellet things that you add water to and they expand. Are they any good?

Also, how do you know when to transplant to a larger container? What do you use for the containers? I saw that Dawn used cups - paper? plastic? what size?
Or do you just transplant outside. Thank-you for your help. I'm sorry I'm such a novice!

God Bless,
Connie of
Casey, Connie and Crew of 13

Connie,

We've discussed seed-starting and peat pellets extensively this year in threads that you can find by searching the forum. I've linked one of them below because it has quite a bit about peat pellet problems and damping off. I explain it more in that thread, but I'll just say here that peat pellets are not the best seed-starting medium, especially for beginners.

A sterile, soil-less seed-starting mix is always the preferred growing medium for seed-starting. Once your seeds are growing well, you then can pot them up into the growing medium of your choice. Among people on this forum, the regular (NOT Organic or Moisture Control or Garden Soil) Miracle Grow Potting Mix and the equivalent product by Stagreen are often used with no problem.

The type and size of cup to use when potting up is a matter of personal preference. The type of cup is also a matter of personal preference. I use both plastic and paper depending on what plant I'm potting up, preferring paper for some and plastic for others. I choose the cup size that will allow the plant to make the best growth it can before it is transplanted out, so for example, tomatoes, peppers and eggplants get larger cups and most other veggies, herbs or flowers get smaller one.

You transplant out based on a combination of recommended planting date, soil temperature, air temperature, soil moisture levels and the 7-10 day weather forecast. I try to transplant close to the recommended date, but only if the soil and air temps are in the right range, the soil is not too wet and the forecast looks good. If you plant only "by the calendar" or using recommended planting dates, you'll often lose plants to late frost, late freezes or late snowfalls. You have to wait until the soil and air are warm enough for the plants to survive in them. And, obviously, you don't transplant warm-season plants out until all danger of frost is out of the forecast. Even then, a surprise late frost can occur, so you have to be prepared to cover up and protect young seedlings.

With time and experience, you'll learn the approximate time to start the seedlings of any given veggie variety in order to have them at the appropriate size by the recommended planting date.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Prev. Thread About Seed Starting

Hi,

I am always in awe at the amount of knowledge on this forum. I wish I had seen this post before I planted all those seeds in peat pellets. Thank-you, Dawn.

There is something wrong with my computer or something because I cannot utilize the archives. Any suggestions?!

God Bless,
Connie of
Casey, Connie and Crew of 13

Well, I am having a really difficult time with my seedlings in jiffy starting mix this year, so I'm thinking maybe the peat pellets are not so much worse after all.

Connie,

The archives here have trouble sporadically, but the last couple of months, every time I've entered a phrase in the search box for this forum alone, I've gotten exactly what I asked for so I'm not sure why it isn't working for you. I have not had as much success in searching all the forums though.

If you want to read some of the older threads on seed-starting, just go back several pages on the index list of threads and read the list of threads from Jan-Feb and there's lots of old threads there on seed-starting. You can click on and read any of them.

When I want a specific past thread from this forum and cannot find it via a GW search, I google it and find it by using a string of words like 'Gardenweb Oklahoma Forum Seed Starting', for example.

Scott,

What are your seedlings doing? Or, maybe I should ask what your Jiffy Mix is or isn't doing?

Dawn

Scott,
I've used Jiffy Mix in the past and it hasn't performed as well for me as other mixes have. I know other posters who have had great results with it. I've never had any real failures with it. My experience with it is I've either had to feed the plants earlier or transplant up to a good potting mix earlier. As plants grow slower in it than other mixes I've used. I've done side by side comparisons. But it is still way better than the commercial mix I used last year. I'm trying the Fertilome mix this year and will be using their potting mixes also. I'm sure I'll use some MG mixes also. I used the MC last year with good results. So again I feel that our individual results can vary due to our practices and environment. An example is the only damping off I've ever experienced in my years of seed starting was from bottom watering. And others do it and have great results. I haven't found any mix yet I've been as happy with as I was Pro Mix and the old commercial mix I bought at a local nursery that the company discontinued. The lady at the nursery is trying another new product and also using Fertilome. That is why I'm trying it. I'm just planting now. I will report my opinions after the seed starting and transplanting seasons are over. Jay

Jay, Don't try to plant 3 of everything you have or you won't have anyplace to sleep come potting up time. LOL

I started most of my seeds in Jiffy and didn't have any trouble once I was told to add hot water to it and not cold. My plants seemed to do just fine.

When I potted up I did it with MG Organic. I've lost 1/2 my seedlings to dampening off. It was one big death round and they just went practically overnight.

I started feeding the ones that remained with MG fertilizer (non organic) like Dawn recommended and they are doing good.

I had some of those peat pellets in the tomato size and decided to use them up so I planted a later round of tomatoes and melons in them. They're doing great...just seemed to take forever to germinate.

I won't buy the MG Organic again...which is sad because it's the only organic mix in my area. Now I'm having to feed with a non-organic fertilizer so I should've got the plain stuff to start with. *sigh* Live and learn right?

As for Jiffy Mix and Peat Pellets--I say use whichever because they both have worked fine for me. A lot depends, I think, on when you pot them up. They need nutrition and the Jiffy and peats just don't have it.

BTW--thanks to everyone who recommended waiting until the plants wilt to water them. I'm having a lot better luck with my plants this year. They seem so hardy compared to last year.

Now if I could just keep my tomatoes from getting leggy LOL.

MJ, One step at a time.....next year we'll work harder from the start on 'how to avoid legginess in tomatoes', OK?

Carol, It is OK if Jay doesn't have room to sleep once he starts potting up because he'll be too busy to sleep anyway. Being Tomato King is a hard job, but someone has to do it!

Jay, I hope your round of seed-starting goes well. I've had a really good seedling year here but, of course, I started an insane number of seeds so I could have had huge seedstarting failures and still would have too many plants.

How close is the greenhouse to being usable? I'm picturing you there in the greenhouse in April potting up seedings?

Dawn

Dawn that is my plan. I posted a little about my greenhouse progress in another thread. My plan is too get my seed starting finished and then should have at least two weeks where they require little attention and finish it during that time. I have ordered over half of what I need to finish it. But so far shipping hasn't been reliable. And I ordered more trays for my 1020 inserts from the same place. So placing inserts in dome tops till they arrive. So much for 24 hr shipping and 2-3 day delivery. And they are in the shipment that hasn't arrived. The pieces I don't need till I pull the film are here. Go figure. Yes my plans are to use it too pot up and also to grow them and harden them off. Jay

Jay,

I saw that other thread and was wondering if your greenhouse skin had arrived and if you'd managed to get any of it up before the windstorm arrived. So, clearly it hasn't arrived.

It will be so nice when it is done and then you and your plants will have smooth sailing this spring.

Dawn

For some reason my seedlings dropped all of their first leaves once they got their first true leaves. Plus the coloration is not good.

This has happened to all three flats to a large extent. The first ones I thought were likely caused by something I did. They recovered and look good now. Most are in larger cups now. The second and third flats I planted about 10 days later and they have even worse symptoms now. It's still possibly something I have done, but I have not been paying too much attention to my care so I don't know even if I added a little fertilizer to them so far.

I'll have to start keeping notes and watching more closely. I've never had any kind of problems before with seedlings.

Scott,

My best guess is either they got too cold or they need to be fed. I'd feed them a water-soluable fert at 1/2 strength and see if it helps. They may have food in their mix but the colder weather may have prevented good uptake of the nutrients. In early spring, I often feed mine if they seem sluggish after I move them outside (I don't see the sluggishness while they're indoors, so I think it has to do with colder nights) and I think the sluggishness is merely that young roots are not efficient at taking up nutrients in slightly colder weather. This week's glorious sunlight and heat may correct the issues too.

Dawn

Y'all are gonna think I'm nuts, but then I think I'm nuts, too, but I planted all my seeds - indoor and wintersown - in the Walmart brand potting mix that has a fertilizer already in it. Well, they're doing fine.

I'm not entirely convinced that damping off is due to soil mix anyway, but rather air circulation, or lack thereof. Outdoors, of course, you don't have to worry about that, but indoors you do. As I may have said already, I have a ceiling fan and my pots are sitting above my sink so they get the air circulation from the fan, and so far, so good.

I have used the Seed Starter mix before, but never straight from the sack. I always added perlite to it to lighten it up and keep it from compacting so badly. If it ever gets even slightly dry, it is so difficult to get it moist again. I quit buying it because it is so darned expensive when you are starting seeds on a much larger scale.

Right now, I have a gazillion little tropical milkweed seedlings up and some Antennaria seedlings indoors.

Are any of you starting your seeds in cold frames, or containers, as in wintersowing, outside? I have never had a damping off problem outdoors for one thing. Usually it occurs indoors. But if you have a little fan that you put close to them on low setting, that will probably help, too. Also, the diluted Chamomile tea - fine mist - is supposed to stop damping off as well. I think Dawn has mentioned this in the past. Another method I have heard of is sprinkling cinnamon on the top of the soil. Apparently it has great anti-fungal properties.

Scott, I bought two 2 cf bags of Sta-Green with moisture pellets at Lowe's yesterday, along with my sand. Can't wait to use it. Will post on it as things progress.

Susan

I went in to look at my little seedlings this morning and found that most of them were dying. I looked on the bottom of my dixie cup I planted them in and there was mold! I transplanted them out of the dixie cup w/ Organic MG, to plastic cups with plain ole MG potting soil and they look better already. I did notice lots of wood...

Damping off is complicated because it is a collection of diseases and not just one disease, but some of them have a definite soil connection because they are soil-borne. They still have to have the 'just right' (maybe I should say 'just wrong') combination of certain conditions to develop.

When we use the term damping off, we are referring to a large group including Phytopthera root rot, Pythium root rot, Rhizoctonia root rot, black root rot, white mold (Sclerotinia spp.), Gray mold (Botrytis), Fusarium, cylindrocladium, and more. Some of these are soil-borne, hence the potting soil connection, while others are seed-borne. Some are found in native soil and are transferred to soilless mixes by folks using tools, flats, pots, six-packs, watering cans, trowels, etc. that were used outside and not sterilized before used in seed-starting.

Each of the group of damping-off diseases develops in somewhat different conditions. Some are more common in colder conditions and some are more common in warmer conditions. Some only affect seeds, some only affect cuttings. Some are pre-emergent and kill seed before you see any plant part emerge from the soil. These kind can penetrate the seed coat as soon as moisture penetrates it and then kills the radicle almost immediately. Some are post-emergent and kill seedlings that seem perfectly healthy one day and then are dead the next day. Pythium root rot, for example, occurs in wet, cold, poorly-drained soils and is often a direct-result of overwatering. On the other hand, Rhizoctonia root rot occurs in warm to hot temperatures in soil that is only moderately moist so your plants might get it if they are in a room that gets too hot and not because you've overwatered. That is why the right air temps are important when starting seeds.

Some of the damping off fungi types only start in very specific pH ranges. Black root rot isn't found on plants in growing mediums with a pH below 4.5 or above 5.5 because it only grows in a pH of 4.5-5.5, or it may be 5.4, I don't remember now.

The sterile seed-starting mix/soil-less potting soil connection has a lot to do with pH but also with soil drainage as well. Sterile seed-starting mixes generally have a pH around 5.5 and this important because most damping off diseases start at a significantly higher pH than that. If you are watering with a higher pH water, then over time the pH of the seed-starting mix goes higher and that increases the chances of damping off since the pH climbs a little time every time you water. That's one reason peat moss is a key component of commercial seed-starting mixes...because is is at the lower end of the pH scale.

You can take a lot of measures to lessen the likelihood of damping off, but the most important one is to have a well-drained soilless mix and to never ever use native soil unless you've sterilized it.

I always sterilize all my flats, etc. and use a sterile seedless mix. I have used potting soil to start seeds and had no problem with it, but I start hundreds and hundreds of seeds a year and want it all to go smoothly and on-schedule, so I tend to stick with sterile mixes to lessen the chances of having problems. Proper air circulation is very important and the plants need good air circulation 24/7. Proper room temperature is key. Soaking seeds in a bleach soak (1 T. bleach/quart of water) for 15 minutes is commonly recommended to lessen the chances of losing your seedlings to a soil-borne fungi from the damping off 'family'. Planting seeds at the proper depth (no deeper than 4 times the seed's thickness) lessens the chance of damping off.

However, you can do everything right and have damping off and do everything wrong and not have it because life and gardening just work that way.

Chamomile tea and cinnamon are two common folk remedies for damping off, and there are several others. There also are some commercial fungicides than can be used as a soil drench, although I know very little about them since I don't use them,

Some of the fungi that cause various forms of damping off can live indefinitely in soil while others have a more limited life span. Pythium spp. can survive several years, whicle black root rot can live only about 10 years and Pythium an Rhizoctonia rots can live indefitely.

That's just about everything I know about damping off except this....the heavier and more dense the potting mixture the more likely it is to occur. And, even though we think of damping off as a disease primarily of young seedlings, in some parts of the country, it will attack some pretty good-sized plants. I've seen it attack toamto plants (but not mine and not here in OK or TX) that have been in the ground a month or two and which have gained substantial size.

No matter what you do, sometimes damping off just happens.
Dawn

Posted by latekid 5 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 6, 10 at 0:17

Here we are into fall 2010 potting soil issues are still surfacing. I had terrible trouble this year with Redi-earth. Seeds sprouted but did not grow on. When they were pulled up root developement was non-existant or distorted. I am not a novice at this. Have been starting seeds using Redi-earth for over 30 years. After much testing on our water, soil , plants, the only consistant problem that has come up is pH not properly adjusting when soil is wet down. Low ph really does a number on seeds sending out that first root. Sound familiar to anyone else??