Dan,

You should be thinking about doing it any time now. I'm about 100 miles south of Oklahoma City and I started my tomatoes on Monday. I haven't started peppers yet, but probably will start them tomorrow or the next day.

Tomatoes do best when transplanted out into the garden as soon as possible after the average last frost date for your area. So, first, you have to determine the average last frost date for your part of the state. Once you know that date, count back approximately 6 to 8 weeks and start your seeds then. It is that simple.

Here in southern Oklahoma, our average last frost date is March 28th, more or less (more about that later), so I like to start my plants the last week in January.

What does an average frost date mean? It means that in half of the years, that average frost date will fall later than the "average last date" and half of the years it will fall earlier. So, some years, you can plant earlier and some years you have to plant later...and you have to be a good guesser to figure out which year to plant early and which year to plant late!

In our county, our average last frost date 5 out of 10 years is later than March 28. In 2 years in ten, though, that last frost date is later than April 10th, and in 1 year in 10 it is later than April 14. So, if I am feeling REALLY adventurous, I might take a chance and plant early like I did last year. (It took heroic measures, though, to save the plants from the late cold spell.) If the winter weather and cold are hanging on late in the season, I will carry my seedlings outside every morning and inside every night and not plant them in the ground until the nights are safely warm in mid-April. I try to plant them no later than mid-April because tomatoes planted later than that may blossom too late and not set much fruit if it gets too hot too early in the growing season.

Regardless of when the plants finally end up in the ground, though, I start them in late January with an eye towards planting them around the average last frost date.

Peppers are a little pickier about being "too cold" so I start them anywhere from the same time I start tomatoes to as much as 3 or 4 weeks later because they need to be transplanted into the garden later than tomatoes, at least 2 weeks later and up to 4 weeks later if it is a very cold spring.

How early you want to start your tomatoes and peppers also depends on your growing set-up. I have light shelves with adjustable lights that I can raise higher and higher as the plants get taller and taller. I also have a heat mat that helps speed up germination a little, which is nice to have, but not necessary. I also have a screened-in porch where I can harden off the plants once the weather is kinda warm. If your space to grow the plants indoors is restricted, you'd be better off starting a couple of weeks later as opposed to starting a couple of weeks earlier.

The ideal tomato transplant is one that is anywhere from five to eight weeks old, short and stocky with a thick main stem, and a healthy vibrant green. The most important thing is to have your lights so close to the tiny seedlings that they almost touch the plants. Otherwise the plants may stretch and get leggy. A good rule of thumb is to give the seedlings anyhere from 12 to 16 hours of light and the remaining time dark. Studies have shown that tomato plants that get too much artificial light while in the seedling stage (24 hours a day) do not grow as well as those that get 16 hours or less.

So, pick your target date.....and your average frost dates should be only a week or two later than mine, I should think, and start your seeds about 2 months before that.

If you need detailed last average freeze data for your county, it is available at the website of the Oklahoma Climatological Survey (www.ocs.ou.edu).

Hope this info helps.

Dawn

Dawn!

Thanks so much! As usual you have bestowed upon me a wealth of great information!

I (just last wk) purchased a shelf with shelves that adjust in 1 inch increments. I'll be getting a couple lights this weekend, and I'm awaiting delivery of my seeds (ordered from Tomato Growers Supply about a week ago or so.)

Tell me, can I use those Jiffy pellets & then transplant to 3" peat pots a few weeks down the road as the plants grow?

Thanks again for all the help you give to everyone in this community!

Dan

Hi Dan,

You're welcome. I hope you have great success starting seeds. I remember the first year that I raised my own tomato plants from seeds, it was so easy that I was astonished! I had thought it must be difficult and "too hard" for someone like me, so couldn't believe it when I stuck the seeds in those little peat pots and they actually sprouted and grew. LOL I had been gardening FOREVER by the time I began starting my own tomato and pepper transplants from seed. To be fair, though, the internet wasn't available back then, and finding info on starting your own tomatoes wasn't easy. Once I'd done it though, I thought to myself....."why doesn't everyone do this?".

Personally, I like Jiffy pellets and use them all the time. Lots of folks hate them and blame them for problems starting their seeds. I've never had a problem that was the fault of the Jiffy pellets.....have had some problems with damping off over the years, but eventually came to realize that I was causing those problems by keeping the pellets sopping wet.

I sprout each variety in one peat pellet, anywhere from four seeds per pellet to about 18. Once the tiny, crowded seedlings have two true leaves, I transplant them to little paper 3 or 4 oz. cups with holes poked in the bottom for drainage. I use a sterile soil mix like Jiffy Mix and they get only water--no fertilizer at this point in time. I have used peat pots in the past. The only real problem with them is that they dry out very quickly. Also, when you transplant the peat pellets into the ground, slash an "X" in the bottom of the pot to let the roots grow through because the peat pots don't let the roots grow "out" into the garden soil as easily as you would think.

In a wickedly cold spring, if I am having to hold the plants inside for a long time, I may repot the tomatoes up to a larger size cup up to four times, until all the plants are in 16 to 20 oz. cups. There is a method to my madness in doing that as it produces stronger plants. I'll post a more detailed explanation of potting up on a separate thread later today or tomorrow. It is a fascinating process. Some people swear by it, some detest it. Personally, I like it.

I'm glad you ordered seeds from Tomato Growers Supply Company. I think they are the first company I ever ordered from, and when their catalog arrived every year, I spent hours and hours going through it and making "wish lists". They are very reliable and I have never had a batch of bad seeds from them. Other reliable suppliers of tomato seeds, especially heirlooms, include Baker Creek (www.rareseeds.com), Victory Seeds (www.victoryseeds.com), Seed Savers Exchange (www.seedsavers.org) Marianna's Seeds (www.mariseeds.com) and Heirloom Tomatoes (www.heirloomtomatoes.net).

I could talk about tomatoes all day, as I am sure everyone on this forum already knows.

Starting pepper seeds today!

Dawn

Ok, I hope this question hasn't already been answered, but I am wondering how soon I could start seedlings just using the sun. We were having alot of 50degree days here. I don't really have room inside right now, and I don't have a florescent light system.

Also Dawn, using only one seed per peat pellet for herbs and vegetables, can you leave the transplant in the pellet until time to plant it? Or do you have to transfer to a bigger cup or pot? Sheri

Sheri,

What sun? Sorry, just kidding. Cloudy and cold here all day and I have missed the sunlight.

How are you going to use the sunlight? Will your flat of peat pellets be sitting inside the house in a sunny window? Or, are you planning on carrying the flat outside every morning and setting it in a protected yet sunny location and then carrying it back inside at night?

If you are going to have them inside sitting inside a sunny window, I think you could start them now. I am assuming they will be able to get at least 8 hours of sunlight a day though.

If you are going to carry them outside every morning and back in at night, I think I might wait and start them around March 1st. Remember that tiny seedlings are very vulnerable to the cold weather, though, so don't leave them outside on a day that is going to stay in the 30s.

If you have a sunroom or sun porch, you probably could start them now in that location too.

If you use only one seed per peat pellet for herbs and veggies, you can leave the transplant in the pellet until it is time to plant unless the cold hangs on longer than expected and the plant is outgrowing its' pellet.

The drawback, though, is that there is little nutrition to speak of in that peat, so your plants might get a little hungry. You can get around that by feeding them with a liquid fertilizer like liquid fish or liquid seaweed or compost tea, diluted to be one-half as strong as the label recommends. How will you know if your plants are hungry? Their color may look a little off or they might yellow a little or their rate of growth might seem to be slower than usual.

In addition, plants that are left to sit outside in the sun all day in peat pellets can dry out quite easily, especially if a brisk wind is blowing. If plants that small get too dry, they can die before you make it home from work to water them. The smaller the plant, the smaller the margin of error.

It is easy to move the plants up to a larger container if the time arrives when you believe they need it. One clue will be that their roots are growing out of the bottom of the peat pellet and reaching out looking for someplace to go. Just use paper or styrofoam cups. Poke a couple of holes in the bottom for drainage. Put 2"-3" of Jiffy Mix or an organic potting soil or seed-starting mix in the bottom of the cup, assuming the cup is 6" or more inches tall. Set the peat pellet on top of that soil and then fill in around the pellet with more soil. Water to settle down the soil and then add a little more soil if needed. The cups will give your plants more room to grow roots and more soil to hold moisture as the plants grow.

I like to transfer them up to larger containers as it gives the plants stronger, more vigorous root systems. The stronger and more vigorous the root systems, the better the plants will do once they are in the ground.

It usually isn't absolutely required to move them up to bigger containers, though, if you don't want to do it or just don't have time to do it.

The only other problem I have with peat pellets is that sometimes the plants in them seem to suffer from damping off more than plants in something like Jiffy mix. I suspect the pure peat contributes to that by holding too much water but I am not sure. If you drink chamomile tea and have chamomile handy, watering the peat pellets with a weak mixture of unsweetened chamomile tea seems to help prevent damping off.

As an alternate method of raising them, you could wintersow them in flats that stay outside 24/7 in a somewhat protected location. For detailed directions on wintersowing, go to the Wintersowing Forum and read the FAQ. One advantage of wintersown tomatoes is that they seem more coldhardy. However, since they won't start growing until the daytime and nighttime temps are "just right", the plants might be smaller than you want them to be by your average last frost date. In some areas, that might not be a problem. However, in our climate, where spring weather is sometimes fleeting and we sometimes seem to go from winter to summer in the same week, smaller plants might not get large enough to flower until heat is already a problem. A lot of people who wintersow tomatoes do so in a climate that has a long, mild spring quite different from ours.

Another alternative would be to put them in a coldframe like Bill P. (who posts as GoneFishing on the Texas and Tomato Forums) does. He seems to have great success with his tomato plants in a cold frame and he doesn't have to carry plants in and out morning and night.

Dawn

Dawn

Thanks for all of that EXCELLENT information. I have read some of Bill's posts in the past, I will read some more. Just one more quick one for you though, would one of those plastic pop-up tent-like greenhouses ($100 at Atwoods) work as a coldframe for our weather? Sheri

I got a couple of little greenhouses (green metal frame, zip up cover, about 2'x3' per shelf) at Atwoods a couple of years ago, and they work really well to put seedlings or seed flats in.

I placed my "greenhouse" outside where it would receive the most sunlight, but be protected from strong wind. I then moved my seed beds into it during the day, and left my seedlings in it except when the nights got below about 40. This was in March and early April. This meant I did a lot of moving of plants daily. It worked well as long as I made sure to leave the cover open on warmer, sunny days and made sure to move them in on cold nights. One wrong move and the plants are all dead! Be careful if you go this way.

Sheri,

I agree with Scott that the little pop-up greenhouses can be useful but only if monitored with extreme care.

They will give your tiny seedlings shelter from the strong spring winds, and that is a huge plus in and of itself.

However, as Scott detailed, they can overheat due to the "greenhouse effect" (no pun intended) so venting is often necessary. They also do not hold enough heat to get your plants through a night with freezing temperatures.

The key to success with a coldframe is that the walls of the coldframe should be thick enough to hold in some heat, the top of the coldframe (often an old glass window or shower door) should be thick enough to help trap that heat AND, as used by Bill, you use animal manure or working compost in the bottom of the coldframe to provide some heat. Both partially decomposed manure and working compost (not completely decomposed yet) emit heat as they break down and that heat helps keep the cold frame warm at night. You can have a coldframe without that working compost/partially decomposed animal manure, but it will get colder at night. By the way, when either manure or working compost are used to heat a coldframe, it is often referred to as a "heatbed" or "hotbed" too. I suppose you could purchase and use a soil heating cable to keep a coldframe warm instead of using working compost or manure.

When I was a kid, one of my my gardening neighbors had a coldframe built out of concrete blocks and an old, heavy, wood-framed multi-paned window. He did have to prop the window open on all but the very coldest of days in order to vent the coldframe and let out some of the heat.

I also have seen people build coldframes out of bales of hay with an old glass window or shower door laid across the top. The hay bales are thick enough to provide some pretty good insulation.

One of my friends in Texas had a coldframe built on top of a flat-roofed tornado shelter. The concrete of the tornado shelter heated up and provided some heat gain during the day, and released that heat at night as it cooled. The released heat helped keep the plants warm at night. The frame had thick wood walls--probably 2" x 4" lumber or something thicker. The top was an old heavy wood-framed window taken out of the house when new, more efficient windows were installed. This particular wood frame was used to raise seedlings, and I think they stayed outside all night as long as freezing weather wasn't in the forecast.

You can even buy cold-frame "kits" and assemble them yourself, but most of the ones I have seen for sale in catalogs don't seem to me that they have thick-enough walls to really hold in heat at night, unless you use a soil cable or something. (Surrounding the cold frame's walls with something that would hold heat might make it workable.) I'm thinking of something like 2 or 3 liter soda bottles painted black to help heat up the water inside of them, or bales of hay, or bags of mulch that you can later open up and use in the garden. In addition to having something around the walls of the cold frame to hold in heat, you could throw an old sleeping bag or comforter on top of the frame at night (at least on cold nights).

I've linked one that would work during the day and might work at night with a little help to keep it warm, as described in the preceding paragraph.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Example of a Cold Frame You Can Purchase

Dawn and Scott,

Thank you both for that information.

Scott, your "greenhouses" sounds like the same ones I was thinking of. I didn't realize they would overheat on warm days though, how hot would it have to get, for you to leave it open?

Dawn,

I would have had the perfect coldframe a few months ago, I had our old full-glass door, unfortunately, the wind blew it over and busted it. Where you talking about just setting the liter bottles of water inside the coldframe?

I was actually just thinking about collecting some manure today for the garden, and was wondering what well-rotted actually means? Does that just mean that it is at least 8 weeks old? Also, I wonder if cow manure is as good to use as horse manure? Sheri

Sheri,

It seemed that the temp inside got too high if it was sunny and the outside temp got much above 60. I don't really remember though. You'll just have to check it hourly the first few sunny, warm days to make sure the plants are ok. I lost a lot of small flower seedlings pretty quickly after I started using mine. (I take better care of vegetables.)

By the way, you can usually get the greenhouses in the fall at Atwoods at between 25 to 50% off the regular price. I paid $16 each for mine in the VERY late fall. Mine are the smallest ones they sell.

Sheri,

I was just thinking of lining up the soda bottles in a row (or double row) around the outside of the coldframe. Even larger containers would work too....5 gallon buckets come to mind, as well as those big plastic jugs or buckets that cat litter come in. The larger the mass of water, the more heat it would hold during the daytime.

As far as manure....well-rotted generally means that the manure has broken down sufficiently that it looks like soil or compost. How long this takes is highly variable, depending on the ground and air temps., how moist the manure is, etc.

Have you ever purchased a bag of 100% pure cow manure? (I'm thinking in particular of the Black Kow brand because it is one of the few that is 100% manure. Law only requires a bag contain 10% manure to be sold as manure, so many other brands don't have much actual manure in them.) Anyway, when you open the bag, the manure is usually pretty well-rotted and looks very similar to compost or a rich, humusy potting soil. Every now and then, though, you'll have a big chunk that pretty much looks just as it did when it was "deposited" by the cow. The loose stuff is well-rotted, the cow patty is not,

As compost and manures break down in a compost pile of any size, they create heat. If you stick a long-pronged compost thermometer into the center of the pile, it can easily register 160 degrees or higher. That is why a few inches of decomposing manure or compost adds heat to a coldframe/hotbed. I am pretty sure Bill has a deep coldframe and several inches of manure. I think he has described it in the past as a mix of straw bedding/manure from a horse stable? He collects it periodically and probably has had it composting a while before he puts it in the coldframe. If you put newly collected manure in the coldframe, it might not have decomposed enough to create enough heat to make a difference.

In a compost pile, or compost tumbler, you can create the kind of heat your coldframe needs in about 30 days with intensive effort, but it usually takes much longer for a pile to decompose and reach that heat on its' own. The intensive effort involved includes chopping up everything that goes into the pile into very small pieces to start with, turning/stirring/tumbling it daily, adding moisture regularly and keeping it just right (not too wet, not too dry), using a compost starter to accelerate the process, etc.

If you do have access to a pile of manure that's been raked out of a barn and has been setting there breaking down for a while, it might be able to give your coldframe the heat it needs right away. But, if you are going to walk around a cow pasture and collect manure and pile it up in the cold frame, don't expect too much heat for a month or more.

Any form of animal manure would work equally well for the purpose of breaking down and giving you heat....cow, horse, chicken, rabbit, pig, etc. Some of them, though, have a less pleasant smell than others.

Dawn

We have germination!! Now let's see if I can grow em up :)

I sowed 6 seeds each of 9 varieties. I'll only be planting out about 10 plants or so, because I have limited garden space.

Here's my little seedlings:

Here's my set-up.... in the utility room next to the HVAC & water heater...

I'll be sowing my peppers today or tomorrow & use my heat mat to get those started, now that the tomatoes are started.

Happy gardening,

Dan