As a general rule, low germination rates (and especially survival and production rates) are related to the conditions provided, not the seed or even the seed source. It is up to us.

Especially so if you are having germinated seedlings that "succumb to shock" or never produce. Shock from what?

90% germination is pretty much the norm except with very old seed that may need some special conditions. I normally plant 2:1 for fresh seed. So if I want 10 plants of that variety I'll plant 20 seeds. I plant 3:1 for seed more than 5 years old that I have saved. But then I grow many more plants than most do and I never plant only one of each variety.

So I guess I'd ask first what your germination methods are that are causing such a low germination issue? Or is it just the lack of patience you mention. :)

Dave

I must have been lucky because last year I started two seeds for every variety I wanted to grow. I ended up with two seedlings of 29 different varieties! I gave the extras to friends and to the garden club for their spring sale.

Because I am growing more varieties than I really have room for, I don't mind losing 2 or 3.....

Linda

I plant 8 seeds of each variety I intend to plant. My hopes are to get 5 of each variety in the ground. Very rarely does this fail me.

I'm down to 1.33 seeds/plant with 93% germination. Last year I decided except for a nostalgic or experimental line, there is no purpose for me having a "must grow" set of varieties since there are always more varieties I want to grow than space. It keeps things exciting. I'll likely be without Cherokee Purple this time, sigh... unfortunately I still have a transplant ready and now that I've written this ... :-(

PC

If I'm seeding in individual pots/pellets/cups, it's probably two seeds per, except for expensive or scant seed and then it's only one each. You really should get near to full germination with tomato seeds and low results (except for an occasional junk packet) means you have nothing to lose by doing some experimenting. It boils down to only three simple points: temp, water, and light. In zone 9b it should be easier than in nearly the entire rest of the country.

I'm not that concerned about it, Dave. I've read reviews on the company that had low germination, and I am not the only one with that result - by far. It simply made me wary of trying new seed companies without a backup plan. But if you don't try new suppliers, sometimes you don't get to try new tomatoes. I'm also always looking for non GMO varieties, so I decided to buy seeds from two companies when one of them is new to me, whenever possible, just in case.

I find it more frustrating that the beautiful tomato plants from ONE supplier never fruit, but the other plants I've grown from them do. And it doesn't matter what tomato variety I buy from them, always the same result: no tomatoes. I've emailed and discussed with them, followed their instructions and their plants just don't fruit for me. So I save myself the headache and buy my tomato seeds elsewhere, problem solved.

I considered that germination was user error and have conducted tests and kept stats to see over the years, because that interests me. Example from 2013: germination rate for San Marzano tomatoes from purveyor A: 90%. Purveyor B: 33%, Purveyor C: 60%. Purveyor D: 70%

Comparing other varieties, I found consistent tomato germination results from the same three purveyors over a two-year period. A: 90%, B: 33%, C: 60%, D: 75%. So I never buy from B.

Then, again looking over my notes over the 6 year period, I discovered that not only did purveyor A's tomatoes germinate, but they produced abundantly. Purveyor B: two tomatoes made it into the ground. One produced, one did not. Purveyor C: has never produced. Purveyor D: good production on some, small production on others. That could be for many reasons, my bay area climate vs the variety tried, amongst others.

So I tend to order seeds from A and D, and then when I'm looking for a new tomato type, I will give a new seed supplier a try. But also try to get that seed from A or D, if available.

I don't know, the fact that I have to give away upwards of 30-40 healthy tomato plants each year for the last four makes me think I'm not a complete seed starting failure.

Like I said, I was just curious as to how many seeds other people start per variety. Clearly, stats interest me.

M...if you study the seed information here and tomatoville....you will learn about several seed companies that do a great job. With just 2 or 3 companies...you can literally buy (or trade) almost any tomato seed unless it is patented by a big "Burpee" type entity. Based on what you are telling us about your poor germination and lack of fruit on plants...I would recommend improving your growing skills by learning from others' here. I am certainly not the most learned tomato grower here...and this year I sowed 85 seeds...and 83 grew to plantout.

Thank you. I'll just continue to steer clear of tomato grower's supply.

I only deal with the big, long-standing, reputable seed companies so have no experience with smaller, newer, or any local suppliers that may or may not be supplying inferior seed. Never had any issues with access to new varieties either since the reputable companies are normally quick to pick up on them - when they are actually viable. And since there are no GMO tomato seeds I never worry about that aspect either.

But over 50 some years of growing thousands of tomato plants and tomatoes for market I have never had or heard of such a marked difference in germination or plant performance/production as you describe . Even when the seed comes from multiple different sources. There are simply far too many other variables for me to ever lay it on either the seed or the vendor. Legalities of seed sale without doing their germination tests aside, the fact that most all vendors buy their seed from the same handful of suppliers would seem to make it statistically impossible for 1 vendor to get nothing but 33% viable seed for distribution while others get seed from the same supplier that is 90% viable. It would have to be an issue with their storage methods I suspect.

I didn't say you were a seed starting failure but methodology can make all the difference in germination rates. But if you are content with eating all the extra costs of such over-seeding and plant give away then that's fine. I prefer to reduce my overhead as much as possible. :)

Dave

I appreciate the feedback. Still a bit more interested in what others are doing with respect to staying on the thread topic. Breaking down my germination skills would be a different topic for a different thread.

I always sow much more than I want to end up with. I leave room for error. I don't mind having extra which allows me to plant out the best. I don't have ratio, just plant a lot more than I need. In my case, the seeds don't cost me anything.

You know what they say about opinions right? Everybody has one. Mr digdirt stated that

it would be a waste of seeds using my method. Well turns out that I have over 50 plants growing. 20 Cherokee Purple seedlings I did not bother to transplant due to abundance. Clearly, his opinion regarding my sowing method was WAY OFF base! :-)

I get most of my seeds from few companies like Tatiana, Heritage, Casey, J&L gardens seeds, have had excellent germination well above 90%. I rarely loose any seedlings also. My solution to the problem I host large plant swap and deliberately grow number of tomatoes/ /peppers/eggplants to be given away- my contribution to fight with green grass and growing your own high nutrient food. Then friends at work, then friends at community gardens...

I will happily take any donated seedlings of just about anything from peeps who live close to Chicago too. Plant swap is in 10 th? year and has over 100 people coming year from year.

I generally have very good germination, so I don't plant too many extra seeds. If I want 5 of a variety, I'll probably start with 7 seeds. With older seeds (5 years +), perhaps a 2:1 ratio.

If I want 5, but only get 4, then I'll start a couple more seeds, but then another one from the first batch inevitably finally pops up.

I have this problem where I find it emotionally difficult to discard extra seedlings, so I know I will need to find homes for the extras. Its like having kittens every year.

Regarding germination, I did order from a new vendor this year and got two packs of peppers (Jimmy Nardello, Gypsy), 1 pack of tomatoes (Debut), and 1 pack of brussels sprouts seeds (Jade Cross). Germination of the pepper seeds was only in the 30% range. So far, tomato seed germination is 0% - not a single seed has germinated after over two weeks. Haven't tried the sprouts yet. Germination procedures were the same as usual where I'd typically have germination in the ~90% range.

I usually get above 80% germination. This year, across the board with all seeds, I was well above 90%. No way in heck am I planting 5 seeds for every 1 that I need. I sell starter plants and I already plant around 4000 as it is!

Well I get excellent germination on my own saved seed, usually close to 100% so I generally plant one seed per cell of my own.

Purchased varieties are generally 90% so I will plant 2 per cell and either cull the weaker of the two or go ahead and pot it up for friends If I have the room under lights.

Traded seed is such an unknown quantity between savers that I generally do 3 seeds per cell to start.

About a week later I'll re-seed any misses, but this year with 60 cells I reseeded 5 spots and 3 were 8yr seed of my own saved seed. That plan works well for me.

Your own saved seed works best, then? Interesting. Thank you!

Most answers deal with how they can or we can't get rid of our extra good plants. Every post makes sense to me. The only new comment I have is that there is no such thing as free seeds if you decide to grow them :-)

PC

<there is no such thing as free seeds>

Amen to that! Especially given the steep rise in seed costs. Plus there is the cost of the containers, the electricity used by the lights et al, the potting mix, water, fertilizers, your time, etc. etc. Ever calculated the costs associated with extra plants that get tossed or given away? You'll be surprised at the $$ down the tubes.

I'm all for supporting local plant sales and trades and fund raisers and I do. But plain old waste, no thanks.

Dave

"cost of the containers, the electricity used by the lights et al, the potting mix, water, fertilizers, your time, etc. etc. Ever calculated the costs associated with extra plants that get tossed or given away? You'll be surprised at the $$ down the tubes."

Since I'm not growing transplants for sale, my seed cost is only 0%-3% of my total costs even with hikes in price when I used to plant 2 seeds for every one plant, so that is not why I pushed my ratio down to 1.33.

It's because I have limited space for both starting and for growing, which is all in container$. I have noticed some of the smaller companies I support are more likely to send me out of date seeds which sometimes result in lower germination percentages. In swaps, there have been a few low quality seeds too. Rather than setting rules on using more seeds, I just write off a germination failure optimistically as something to look forward to the 'next time' when I will throw in a extra seed or two for a specific problem. It saves me a great deal of money with the other supplies and expenses you mentioned and makes sampling more varieties possible. Finally it minimizes the stress of adopting plants to good homes while they are still adoptable and I'm late planting my own out :-|

PC

I purchased a $3 pack of seeds (Better Boy tomato hybrid) from Burpee. I'm only planting three plants since I'm using containers, but just to be on the safe side I started 8 in cups. I expected only 6 or so to germinate, but surprisingly all 8 ended up germinating. I now have them growing in my windowsill. I'm going to transplant the three biggest ones and then most likely give away the extras or keep a couple as "back-ups" just in case any of the three die after being transplanted.

In season, I end up growing 7 to 9 plants. I start with 4 seeds of one variety and see how many germinate. Then I go to another variety, and do 4 more seeds. If all germinate, I stop there. Lately I have at least one volunteer. This year, I have 5 more large pots and a fresh bale of ProMix BX, So I may start 4 more seeds. I do things on a small scale.

I, personally, sow 3 times as many seeds that I actually want to grow. In most cases I get more than what I need. Never had major problems with BAD germination until this season. From 15 or so purchased I had difficulty with two of them: ( Arbuznyi, Hahms Gelbe Topftomate). probably I had a 20% germination rate and I had to do it 3 times. My own saved seeds probably had 100% germination rate. The reason is that I save seeds by fermenting method. As I do final cleaning I let all the floater go down the drain and only keep the heavy sinkers.
So if you try to save seeds by washing and drying, probably you will get some that are not viable and strong.. Probably how the seed companies save their seeds.

Seysonn

Seysonn, I'm having the same issue with one variety. I started trying to germinate in early February, three weeks later nothing. Tried again, again nothing. Finally dumped the potting mix, washed the container and tried again a couple of weeks ago. And still nothing. The variety is Sophie's choice. It's in a garden window where my four other tomatoes are and they all germinated on the first try. I'm wondering if I got a bad batch or something.

Caryl

I sow three seeds per cell for one plant of the variety. Usually all three germinate and I give the other seedlings away, or sell them or take to a plant swap. The idea is to give me a choice of the strongest seedling for my garden but in reality they all are about the same. Think it is time to cut back to two seeds per cell.

My last attempt was 5 seeds in a pot and only 2 came up.

I usually put two seeds per cell, six cells of each variety, and this year I finally accepted that almost all will come up, I will have too many seedlings and then plants, I will be uneccesarily vexed caring for them, and even trying to give them away. So this year after thining I kept two or three of each of six varieties, and plan to keep one or two of each.

These are all last years seeds from TGS.

Peppers are a whole 'nother matter, but last years pepper seeds from TGS all seem to have germinated. None were chinenses though. I was lucky enough to have succesfully overwinter most of last years.

I usually plant 8 seeds in four cells. I will pick the strongest and keep two. The others go to friends or the FM. I've already got plenty of orders so will have no problem getting rid of them. I'll also have extras for our annual MG FM day.

Dave