Bob, my comment about Noisette being a proper name was partially prompted by some old references where the writer actually tried to say the class was so called because of its hazelnut-shaped buds. I'm not saying you would ever make that mistake, but since I can pull up GW threads using Google, I guess people who don't know what a Noisette is could also. Nik, that's interesting that the family name could mean 'noisy'. The only member of the family I've met had a fairly loud voice. An extremely nice person with a nice voice, but it did carry... And a good gardener, of course... Virginia

Wish we could be there, but not. I thought for a day or so there we might need to make an emergency run to Sacramento right around that time, but I think we've dodged that bullet. See you the end of the month. Jeri

When I first started to grow roses, I only have my eyes on hybrid teas which I consider the perfect" rose. I think about a fourth of my 35 plus roses are hybrid teas. However, in recent years, I have been moving towards floribundas, shrubs and climbers. I guess time and taste changes, in part due to our fellow rosarians on this forum, and the desire to have more natural looking bush forms. I only buy hybrid teas if there is something I find unique about it or a chance to have it because I couldn't find it in the past. I did buy Voodoo, Chicago Peace, Strike it Rich, Double Delight and About Face this year because I finally found them after a few years searching for them. But normally I would lean towards Austins and shrubs roses.

We fall short in describing scents except to say something smells like something else more familiar. So I try to think of scents in another way. The "classic Damask scent" is something most people perceive as being the strongest type of scent among roses -- if we were to characterize scents as 3D things, I'd call it "fat and round". Other scents, like what's typically called "musk" but is really more Multiflora than Moschata (to me), I perceive as thin, wispy, and dispersing like smoke -- they'll never really hit you hard, but they'll vary in how far away from the rose you can be and still smell it. To me, the ranges of "Tea" scents are similar to "musk" up close, but they don't really travel far. I perceive them like thin stretches of silk -- something whose presence you can feel, but by which you are not overwhelmed. The other scents, like fruit or "myrrh" or clove (which is what I get from the "true musk rose" but not from roses claimed to have a "musk scent"), I perceive more like pin-pricks or marbles -- they don't waft much, but they also don't hit you hard, instead being more like points in the air that hit you lightly and repeatedly. Going back to the "classic Damask scent", I think it really exists primarily among the old Damasks themselves. Last year, I noticed a bloom on 'Autumn Damask' which had lost its petals but still had its stamens. I snipped it while dead-heading, and noticed the scent of cloves. The original Damasks had Rosa moschata as a grandmother, and this rose carries its clove scent primarily in its stamens. This apparently carried through to the Damasks. So I concluded that the "spice" or "sharp" element of the "classic Damask scent" found on actual Damasks comes from their clove-scented stamens. This trait was lost as Damasks gave rise to other types, like Bourbons and Hybrid Perpetuals -- except for a few of the Bourbon-Noisettes like 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte', and whichever parent of 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' had Noisette ancestry. I say this because its semi-double sport 'Souvenir de St. Anne's' has clove-scented stamens. I have the parents of the original Damasks -- Gallicas, R. moschata, and R. fedtschenkoana. The Gallicas to me smell like herbal-floral. R. moschata gives me just clove. R. fedtschenkoana smells like oil-based paint, or heavy stage make-up. In my mind, the Gallicas contributed their herbal-floral element to R. moschata's clove-spice, and R. fedtschenkoana's scent acts like a sort of mortar binding it all together but fading behind them. Albas I've smelled have a powdery element that reminds me of multiflora but less "wispy". Depending on the type of Alba, this would be blended with degrees of "classic Damask scent". Albas like 'Maxima' and 'Semi-Plena' are more significantly R. canina, while others like 'Queen of Denmark' and 'Felicite Parmentier' will lean a touch more to Damask and Gallica, respectively. Centifolias are interesting. I'm thinking that they originated from Albas pollinating Damasks, with additional self-seeding and/or random infusions from Gallicas again. Short version of "why" is that R. canina has unbalanced meiosis -- its pollen has one set of chromosomes, but its ovules have four. So seedlings of R. canina or Albas will be more like their mother than their father. If R. canina pollen landed on a tetraploid rose, the result would be triploid, with only 1/3 being R. canina. A few original Centifolias I've investigated were found to be triploid, hinting further at that. So I think they're like the Albas with Damask ancestry, but leaning more to the Damasks than, say, 'Queen of Denmark', which I'd say is 4/6 Canina and 2/6 Damask. Most Centifolias have few or no stamens. So what does that do to their scent? To my nose, they are like Damasks without the spice and with a little face powder. Bourbons are often claimed to be "Damask-scented" but to my nose, it's a modification of it. They lack the clove-scented stamens, and have an additional element from Chinas -- a "sweet" or "candy" element. From what I've observed among my collection of Chinas, the pinks tend to lean more toward "bubble-gum" while the reds smell more (to me) like cherry nibs candy. In my mind, I can see how "classic Damask", minus clove, and plus "sweet/candy" equals "Bourbon", and whether the Bourbons are red or pink will tend to indicate which type of "candy" they inherited -- to me, red Bourbons tend to smell more fruity. Hybrid Perpetuals will tend to range quite a bit, but many I've smelled are much like Bourbons. Some of the older ones have more of a Damask element -- think of the Trianon Perpetuals like 'Yolande d'Aragon' and 'Sydonie' -- because they probably had more recent Damask Perpetual ancestry. The later HPs were more like something between Bourbons and early HTs. And speaking of HTs, I tried a bunch of the "Damask-scented dark red or crimson HTs" like 'Oklahoma', 'Crimson Glory', et al. They reminded me of Bourbons in scent, but with more fruit. I wonder if this is an echo of 'Soleil d'Or' and the Pernetianas. I have 'Gruss an Coburg', and to my nose, it smells like apple pie with brown sugar and cinnamon. Most HTs today will have some Pernetiana blood, regardless of their bloom color. David Austin used a bit of a motley of roses among his core, so they will range depending on which you smell. I do like that in his search for fragrance, he introduced roses with scents that weren't very common among other roses being introduced at the same time. Anyway, those are my random thoughts on fragrance. :-) ~Christopher